4 hours ago, charierre said:

Three key passes suggests otherwise?

That's a lovely stat, and whilst stats, when coupled with match context can be useful, the fact that neither you or I can actually recall any of these supposed key passes,  begs the question as to how key they actually were?

In comparison, there were multiple occasions in which N'golo failed to spot runs and play the pass, forward - this happened to Kai (on at least 3 occasions when he spun to dart behind the defense, Werner when he came on, Mason, Pulisic and Ziyech. As I said in the match day thread, even my 9 yr old lad was shouting at the TV asking why he wasn't playing it forward.  So in this context, and given that fact that none of us can recall these key defense splitting passes that he is meant to have played, the stat is of limited evidential value.

I think the stats also say that he played the most passes of the game. I would be interested to see which % of those passes were progressive and how many were backways/sidewards. I am not a betting man, but I would hazard a guess that the overwhelming majority fall into the latter category. Again, this is in the context of being the player on the pitch who had more space and more time on the ball than any of our other players.

I will probably make this my last message on the topic, as I love Kante, and think that the role he was given against Leeds ' suit him. That said, it doesn't change the fact that as the CM who a) was playing in the more progressive/forward thinking  role of the 2 CM pivots and b) enjoyed more possession and time on the ball than any of our other players, he failed to deliver what I would have expected, and his lack of vision, and/or his indecision ,and/or confidence to play a forward pass, cost us.

 

4 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

That's a lovely stat, and whilst stats, when coupled with match context can be useful, the fact that neither you or I can actually recall any of these supposed key passes,  begs the question as to how key they actually were?

In comparison, there were multiple occasions in which N'golo failed to spot runs and play the pass, forward - this happened to Kai (on at least 3 occasions when he spun to dart behind the defense, Werner when he came on, Mason, Pulisic and Ziyech. As I said in the match day thread, even my 9 yr old lad was shouting at the TV asking why he wasn't playing it forward.  So in this context, and given that fact that none of us can recall these key defense splitting passes that he is meant to have played, the stat is of limited evidential value.

I think the stats also say that he played the most passes of the game. I would be interested to see which % of those passes were progressive and how many were backways/sidewards. I am not a betting man, but I would hazard a guess that the overwhelming majority fall into the latter category. Again, this is in the context of being the player on the pitch who had more space and more time on the ball than any of our other players.

I will probably make this my last message on the topic, as I love Kante, and think that the role he was given against Leeds ' suit him. That said, it doesn't change the fact that as the CM who a) was playing in the more progressive/forward thinking  role of the 2 CM pivots and b) enjoyed more possession and time on the ball than any of our other players, he failed to deliver what I would have expected, and his lack of vision, and/or his indecision ,and/or confidence to play a forward pass, cost us.

 

As I said you thought he had  a poor game , a few of us thought he did ok. Live with it. My final word on the subject.

1 hour ago, Vagabond said:

Would like to know what exactly those 3 key passes were.

And I would like to know what exactly those 7 blatant instances were of Kante failing to spot runners and play the passes.

If we are going to go down the road of missed opportunities for "forward passing to runners" and "choosing the easy option", I would suggest Jorginho exceeds that number in practically every game. But I'm told this isn't a Kante V Jorginho passing comparisson, apparently. 

Which is really rather convenient I think.

3 minutes ago, just said:

And I would like to know what exactly those 7 blatant instances were of Kante failing to spot runners and play the passes.

If we are going to go down the road of missed opportunities for "forward passing to runners" and "choosing the easy option", I would suggest Jorginho exceeds that number in practically every game. But I'm told this isn't a Kante V Jorginho passing comparisson, apparently. 

Which is really rather convenient I think.

Go back and watch any number of the times Ngolo broke forward in the middle of the park, carrying the ball forward. Then take a look at the players ahead of him who are making runs into space, making movement to receive the ball, spinning in behind.  And then see his failure to play the pass, a moments hesitation and a couple of secs too long on the ball - and the resultant easy sideways/backwards pass that follows. It isn't just me that has raised this. Others have too.....Now where are those 3 "key" passes?

I noticed at least 3 times with Kai, and instances with the other players I mentioned previously.

This is a Kante thread, and does not need to descend into a Jorginho vs Kante thread. Will be more than happy to discuss Jorgi on his own thread if you want (who overall btw I agree is not a good fit for us and we should move on if we can).

37 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Go back and watch any number of the times Ngolo broke forward in the middle of the park, carrying the ball forward. Then take a look at the players ahead of him who are making runs into space, making movement to receive the ball, spinning in behind.  And then see his failure to play the pass, a moments hesitation and a couple of secs too long on the ball - and the resultant easy sideways/backwards pass that follows. It isn't just me that has raised this. Others have too.....Now where are those 3 "key" passes?

I noticed at least 3 times with Kai, and instances with the other players I mentioned previously.

This is a Kante thread, and does not need to descend into a Jorginho vs Kante thread. Will be more than happy to discuss Jorgi on his own thread if you want (who overall btw I agree is not a good fit for us and we should move on if we can).

In any game Jim, any game at any point, a player can have the ball at his feet but will not see the 360 highlevel view you see sitting at home watching a TV screen. He may see a runner, he may not. He may think the runner is going to turn in a different direction, he may think the pass is not the right option or believe it might not even be on due to space, speed of player, positioning of opponents etc. He may see another passing option and goes for that but it doesn't come off. He may see a supporting player in a better position than him, with more space and feels that a better option is to give the ball to him and change the direction of attack.1001 different variables to process and make a decision on sometimes in a split second.

As for the key passes, like yourself with the 7 blatant instances of not making a pass, I can't give any real specifics without watching the game again and providing timings. The 3 key passes recorded are the figures provided by recognised football stats websites who's job it is to observe and accurately record them for public consumption. Which of course begs the question, "what constitutes a key pass"? From the stats website I used it is defined as follows:

Key Pass

- The final pass leading to a shot at goal from a teammate.

 

Edited March 15, 20215 yr by just

12 minutes ago, just said:

In any game Jim, any game at any point, a player can have the ball at his feet but will not see the 360 highlevel view you see sitting at home watching a TV screen. He may see a runner, he may not. He may think the runner is going to turn in a different direction, he may think the pass is not the right option or believe it might not even be on due to space, speed of player, positioning of opponents etc. He may see another passing option and goes for that but it doesn't come off. He may see a supporting player in a better position than him, with more space and feels that a better option is to give the ball to him and change the direction of attack.1001 different variables to process and make a decision on sometimes in a split second.

As for the key passes, like yourself with the 7 blatant instances of not making a pass, I can't give any real specifics without watching the game again and providing timings. The 3 key passes recorded are the figures provided by recognised football stats websites who's job it is to observe and accurately record them for public consumption. Which of course begs the question, "what constitutes a key pass"? From the stats website I used it is defined as follows:

Key Pass

- The final pass leading to a shot at goal from a teammate.

 

Yep - many variables in a game, and the challenge of the players is to find solutions. Kante didn't do that on Saturday - Lets hope that he does better on Wednesday, although, I would imagine that with a CM pairing of him and Kova, his role will be less progressive than against Leeds, and he wont have the same need to be the more creative of the 2 in the pivot - which should hopefully better suit him and his strengths.

Cheers for clarifying what contributes as a key pass. Would be interesting to see if the 2 yard backward pass that led to the 30 yrd speculative shot from Rudiger came from him 🙂

N’Golo Kanté

Had a terrific display in terms of defense, passing and dribbling. Playing as a “double six” seems to provide him with the base to intelligently pick his spots to win the ball back and circulate it in midfield and final third.

Stats of note
9 passes into final third - 1st
7 progressive passes - 1st
4 tackles - 1st
6 successful dribbles (8 attempted) - 1st
18 loose-ball recoveries - 1st
6 shot-creating actions - Joint 1st
3 key passes - Joint 1st
2 interceptions - Joint 1st
11 progressive carries - Joint 1st
4 carries into final third - Joint 2nd
4 clearances - 3rd

 

Jorginho

Was dealt with too easily on and off-the-ball. He was the only outfield starter to not make a single progressive pass and his ball progression was very poor otherwise, too: 3 passes into the final third, 22 successful backward passes, 9 successful sideways passes and 20 successful forward passes.

Stats of note
N/A

RATING: 5

 

Taken from here

  https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/2021/3/14/22329878/leeds-united-0-0-chelsea-premier-league-statistical-review-and-analysis

I thought he had a quite good game, if others would have played their roles as determined as he did I think we'd have won this one quite comfortably. I agree though that there were a couple of situations where he could have gone for a vertical pass but he kept on playing sideways. Especially one moment was crazy and I have no clue why he didn't opt for the vertical solution onto Kai but decided to keep on running a bit and then play to Pulisic on the flank (who wasn't really on fire that day anyway). Thing is, this happens really often and for as long as I can think since TT took over. It happens with Kova, Mount, Kante, also CHO is rather tame mostly - to a different degree each but that's quite obvious imo. No idea if that's somewhat an instruction or wether they still don't feel as confident within the system and general approach as needed to really play a bit more risky in certain moments.

It's a bit strange because we do play it risky at times at the back - and 100% intentional at that - when we try to combine our way outta pressing situations but as soon as we're reaching the final third the same guys play it almost as safe as possible.

 

@just mate save yourself the angst. There are those who love Jorginho and seem to want to talk down Kante as a rival for his God(read Sarri)-given spot on the pitch.

Evidence means little when confirmation bias abounds. 

I think we're all better off just talking about something else. Arguing with fanatics is rarely a good use of anyone's time. 

20 minutes ago, dkw said:

N’Golo Kanté

Had a terrific display in terms of defense, passing and dribbling. Playing as a “double six” seems to provide him with the base to intelligently pick his spots to win the ball back and circulate it in midfield and final third.

Stats of note
9 passes into final third - 1st
7 progressive passes - 1st
4 tackles - 1st
6 successful dribbles (8 attempted) - 1st
18 loose-ball recoveries - 1st
6 shot-creating actions - Joint 1st
3 key passes - Joint 1st
2 interceptions - Joint 1st
11 progressive carries - Joint 1st
4 carries into final third - Joint 2nd
4 clearances - 3rd

 

Jorginho

Was dealt with too easily on and off-the-ball. He was the only outfield starter to not make a single progressive pass and his ball progression was very poor otherwise, too: 3 passes into the final third, 22 successful backward passes, 9 successful sideways passes and 20 successful forward passes.

Stats of note
N/A

RATING: 5

 

Taken from here

  https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/2021/3/14/22329878/leeds-united-0-0-chelsea-premier-league-statistical-review-and-analysis

Again, this need not get into a Jorginho vs Kante thing, no more than it needs to be a Kante vs Azpilicueta or Ziyech thing. They played different roles in the game and had different circs to contend with. Kante was the more progressive of the 2 CM pivots and was not man marked all game, having significantly more time on the ball (either through his own making, or as some suspect, by Leeds allowing him that time on the ball). 

As said before, stats when used alongside context can be useful, but on their own are of limited evidential value.

The tackling and ball recovery are not in doubt - he was his usual reliable self in that regard. My issue is how he used the ball.

7 progressive (forward) passes all game, from a player who broke forward with time on the ball time after time is pitiful

11 progressive carries - i.e breaking forward with the ball, when he then doesn't make use of it, is pointless. 

3 key passes - again, which were they? I don't recall any defense splitting balls that put a chance on a plate for an attacker.

For whats its worth, and again, I take these stats with a pinch of salt given the game context - the stats would indicate that Jorginho, despite being marked out of the game made 20 forward passes - almost double the 11 Kante made, despite having significantly more time on the ball. I am not saying that Jorginho was better than Kante at moving the ball forward or using the ball effectively - but that is what the stats you have provided would tell us (hence why I put little weight on any of these stats). In short, they were both not good enough in making use of the ball - but given that Kante had more opportunities, time and space, as well as the more progressive role of the 2, that is why I am being harder on him.

 

Edited March 15, 20215 yr by nonotnowjim

6 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Again, this need not get into a Jorginho vs Kante thing, no more than it needs to be a Kante vs Azpilicueta or Ziyech thing. They played different roles in the game and had different circs to contend with. Kante was the more progressive of the 2 CM pivots and was not man marked all game, having significantly more time on the ball (either through his own making, or as some suspect, by Leeds allowing him that time on the ball). 

As said before, stats when used alongside context can be useful, but on their own are of limited evidential value.

The tackling and ball recovery are not in doubt - he was his usual reliable self in that regard. My issue is how he used the ball.

7 progressive (forward) passes all game, from a player broke forward with time on the ball time after time is pitiful

11 progressive carries - i.e breaking forward with the ball, when he then doesn't make use of it to use is pointless. 

3 key passes - again, which were they? I don't recall any defense splitting balls that put a chance on a plate for an attacker.

For whats its worth, and again, I take these stats with a pinch of salt given the game context - the stats would indicate that Jorginho, despite being marked out of the game made 20 forward passes - almost double the 11 Kante made, despite having significantly more time on the ball.

 

Wow, that's your take on those stats 😄

 

I think my take on stats is perfectly clear in all of this - on their own, they are not worth their salt (unless the stat is goals scored or assists).  7 forward passes over 93 mins is hardly worth writing home about, even more so given that I watched the game and saw first hand how many times he took the easy/lazy option of a sideways or backwards pass.

Clearly I felt Kante was wasteful in possession, not by losing the ball, but my opportunity costs of not spotting runs and playing it forward. Stats or opinions of others wont change that.

Equally - others feel that he was MOTM (for me it was Mendy, followed by Rudiger).

Lets all hope that come Wednesday, when he probably wont have the burden of being the more progressive of the 2 CMs, that he can do better than against Leeds.

 

 

Edited March 15, 20215 yr by nonotnowjim

I think there is too much focus on that 1 games vs Leeds...

In the last 5 games Kante played 90 minutes in 4 of them and Jorginho in 3, we won 2 games (Liverpool, Everton) and played 1:1 vs the Saints and 0:0 vs Man United and Leeds. None of them really had a bad game and I'm pretty sure that Kante's long ball got counted as an assist to Mount's goal vs Liverpool.

I don't see the point in comparing them now that they clearly have a different position and play a different role. Switch their positions and they would be at 50% of their abilities, in Jorginho's case even less than that.

 

3 hours ago, just said:

And I would like to know what exactly those 7 blatant instances were of Kante failing to spot runners and play the passes.

If we are going to go down the road of missed opportunities for "forward passing to runners" and "choosing the easy option", I would suggest Jorginho exceeds that number in practically every game. But I'm told this isn't a Kante V Jorginho passing comparisson, apparently. 

Which is really rather convenient I think.

It doesn't have to be black or white. For the record, I thought Kanté was our best player vs Leeds and I prefer him over Jorgi in most situations. Still, I'd like to know more about those three key passes, because I must have missed them.

4 hours ago, charierre said:

For obvious reasons I couldn't list them, it is just what is quoted on the game  and I ain't rewatching the game to show who's swings their dick the best. The same site though does list Bruno Fernandes has having achieved 5 key passes the most of the weekend and no City player having achieved more than 2 against Fulham. We are to assume that each game was judged by the same metric. As I said earlier we all watch the same game and come to differing opinions on who has done well and who hasn't. Myself I am firmly in the camp that says that Kante wasn't fully the problem on Saturday, the manager knows his skillset and he went onto the pitch and did his job unlike a couple of others.

I was honestly just curious. Imo people are quoting stats far too much nowadays, because it's a rather convenient way to "prove" a player did well and I'm not a fan of that. I prefer to watch the game itself and I didn't get the impression Kanté had a big impetus going forward. So when you say there were three key passes I got curious, since I must either be wrong or the people making those stats are wrong.

2 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

Again, this need not get into a Jorginho vs Kante thing, no more than it needs to be a Kante vs Azpilicueta or Ziyech thing. They played different roles in the game and had different circs to contend with. Kante was the more progressive of the 2 CM pivots and was not man marked all game, having significantly more time on the ball (either through his own making, or as some suspect, by Leeds allowing him that time on the ball). 

As said before, stats when used alongside context can be useful, but on their own are of limited evidential value.

The tackling and ball recovery are not in doubt - he was his usual reliable self in that regard. My issue is how he used the ball.

7 progressive (forward) passes all game, from a player who broke forward with time on the ball time after time is pitiful

11 progressive carries - i.e breaking forward with the ball, when he then doesn't make use of it, is pointless. 

3 key passes - again, which were they? I don't recall any defense splitting balls that put a chance on a plate for an attacker.

For whats its worth, and again, I take these stats with a pinch of salt given the game context - the stats would indicate that Jorginho, despite being marked out of the game made 20 forward passes - almost double the 11 Kante made, despite having significantly more time on the ball. I am not saying that Jorginho was better than Kante at moving the ball forward or using the ball effectively - but that is what the stats you have provided would tell us (hence why I put little weight on any of these stats). In short, they were both not good enough in making use of the ball - but given that Kante had more opportunities, time and space, as well as the more progressive role of the 2, that is why I am being harder on him.

 

One final point Jim, you keep making the assertion that Jorginho was marked out of the game. Was he marked man for man? Was a particular Leeds player shadowing him the whole game? Wherever he went? Or was he just closed down quickly when he had the ball, like Kante and Mount and most of our players? Personally I certainly didn't see him being man marked. 

The difference being Kante, Kovacic and Mount, (and IMO Mount certainly did not have his best game either against Leeds), have natural attributes that allow them, on the whole, to deal better with those fast closing down situations. They have better movement, more pace, a bit more physicality, the ability to dribble the ball. Jorginho does not have those attributes, hence if he can't pass the ball quick enough he struggles badly in those situations like we saw on Saturday and have seen many times before with decent opposition who press tight in midfield. Whenever people say he is the most press-resistant player we have, I always scratch my head. Against teams that keep their shape and do it well, I actually think he is the least press resistant.

 

 

 

16 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

Yup. Remains the only genuinely world class player in the squad. Clubs will be lining up to take him off our hands in the summer. 

Yup getting older henfe no longer the same player but still one of our best player. 

Funny that Jorginho and Kante thread always end up with comparison between them.

Midfielder is the most varied position, there are so many type that it is hard to compare one another. It all come down what do you want your midfielder to do. If your plan is to play 3 cb at the back and keep the ball all the time, Jorginho is your guy. 

Kante best strength is his mobility and ball winning. By playing 3 cb behind him and more importantly keeping the ball at all time, it is too much redundancy. 

Honestly after watching us play many games under Tuchel, kova - Jorgi is our best partnership. Kova is better ball carrier and Jorginho is slow ball specialist. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, just said:

One final point Jim, you keep making the assertion that Jorginho was marked out of the game. Was he marked man for man? Was a particular Leeds player shadowing him the whole game? Wherever he went? Or was he just closed down quickly when he had the ball, like Kante and Mount and most of our players? Personally I certainly didn't see him being man marked. 

The difference being Kante, Kovacic and Mount, (and IMO Mount certainly did not have his best game either against Leeds), have natural attributes that allow them, on the whole, to deal better with those fast closing down situations. They have better movement, more pace, a bit more physicality, the ability to dribble the ball. Jorginho does not have those attributes, hence if he can't pass the ball quick enough he struggles badly in those situations like we saw on Saturday and have seen many times before with decent opposition who press tight in midfield. Whenever people say he is the most press-resistant player we have, I always scratch my head. Against teams that keep their shape and do it well, I actually think he is the least press resistant.

 

 

 

I don't disagree with any of your points around Jorginho attributes. It is his lack of mobility and dynamism that makes me want him to be replaced/upgraded. But this is a kante thread about how kante played. Don't know why everyone keeps bringing it back to Jorginho, but I would be happy to discuss jorgis shortcomings in the jorgi thread if so inclined.

So to spell out clearly, I agree with you that Jorginho does not have the physical attributes to consistently beat a press or carry the ball forward with pace or physicality. I guess it is for this reason that no manger asks him to do that, and instead his role is to pass the ball quickly, in a metronomic way.
 

His role on Saturday was once again the deeper lying CM of the pivot, with no regular requirement to spend time on the ball bringing it forward to launch attacks - Unlike kante

1 hour ago, nonotnowjim said:

I don't disagree with any of your points around Jorginho attributes. It is his lack of mobility and dynamism that makes me want him to be replaced/upgraded. But this is a kante thread about how kante played. Don't know why everyone keeps bringing it back to Jorginho, but I would be happy to discuss jorgis shortcomings in the jorgi thread if so inclined.

So to spell out clearly, I agree with you that Jorginho does not have the physical attributes to consistently beat a press or carry the ball forward with pace or physicality. I guess it is for this reason that no manger asks him to do that, and instead his role is to pass the ball quickly, in a metronomic way.
 

His role on Saturday was once again the deeper lying CM of the pivot, with no regular requirement to spend time on the ball bringing it forward to launch attacks - Unlike kante

That's fair enough Jim. I just wanted clarification that Jorginho was not specifically targeted by man marking. He was just closed down quickly by an organised team with a tight press and he was unable to do anything about it. Hence, why he was so anonymous in the game. 

Onwards and upwards Jim starting tomorrow night. I feel Atletico will have to play a different game from the home tie. They will have to be more adventurous at some point. Rather than just sitting deep and letting us come to them, Simeone might use the midfield press, something they didn't do in the 1st leg. In which case Kante and Kovacic would be the best pairing anyway IMO, regardless of Jorginho's suspension. It could be the toughest test we have faced this season and Mount's unavailability is a big loss for us.

Edited March 16, 20215 yr by just

7 minutes ago, just said:

That's fair enough Jim. I just wanted clarification that Jorginho was not specifically targeted by man marking. He was just closed down quickly by an organised team with a tight press and he was unable to do anything about it. Hence, why he was so anonymous in the game. 

I said last week that Joginho should not play against sides like Leeds who have a high energy pressing game for pretty much the full 90 minutes, they train to be fitter than the opposition so they can do it. He just cant handle that kind of game, Tuchel ballsed it up by picking him and then expecting Kante to basically play both roles in the midfield. Kovacic in that midfield against Leeds beats their press with his skill on the ball, close control etc. Its just a shame he would probably then just do little with it once hes in the clear.

20 minutes ago, dkw said:

I said last week that Joginho should not play against sides like Leeds who have a high energy pressing game for pretty much the full 90 minutes, they train to be fitter than the opposition so they can do it. He just cant handle that kind of game, Tuchel ballsed it up by picking him and then expecting Kante to basically play both roles in the midfield. Kovacic in that midfield against Leeds beats their press with his skill on the ball, close control etc. Its just a shame he would probably then just do little with it once hes in the clear.

I agree with you but disagree that Tuchel ballsed it up.

Because he couldn't really risk Kovacic getting a knock as he's absolutely vital tomorrow and with Jorginho & Mount out already we would be royally screwed if we lost Kovacic as well. So he had to rest him.

2 minutes ago, Sindre said:

I agree with you but disagree that Tuchel ballsed it up.

Because he couldn't really risk Kovacic getting a knock as he's absolutely vital tomorrow and with Jorginho & Mount out already we would be royally screwed if we lost Kovacic as well. So he had to rest him.

So play someone else then, give Gilmour a run out, move mount back into midfield and put CHO on the pitch. He had options and chose the wrong one in my opinion.

2 minutes ago, Sindre said:

I agree with you but disagree that Tuchel ballsed it up.

Because he couldn't really risk Kovacic getting a knock as he's absolutely vital tomorrow and with Jorginho & Mount out already we would be royally screwed if we lost Kovacic as well. So he had to rest him.

He even said in the press conference that this would be Kova's game if it wouldn't be for the two suspensions in CM for the second leg. Sure could have gambled/risked a bit more but I still doubt that this was the deciding factor against Leeds.

Just now, dkw said:

So play someone else then, give Gilmour a run out, move mount back into midfield and put CHO on the pitch. He had options and chose the wrong one in my opinion.

That's what I would have done too - play Mount as a CM. And start Werner. But with the pitch as it was I still think it wasn't a good fit for the sprinters as well because of possible injuries. In my opinion the game against Leeds was all in all a concession but still should have been played much better with the personnel that started.