10 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

Are we really doing this again? I thought he did his usual good job winning the ball and distributing. 

There were four attacking players on (three of whom cost us 160m between them) and we're really criticising Kante for us not scoring?

Some people will us any opportunity to push an agenda. 

This, I don't get it what people want from their dm. 

Against leeds Ziyech and Pulisic was pretty much useless. It was as expected though. Pulisic is always useless on the right and ziyech has struggled big time playing in this 10ish role under Tuchel 

Edited March 14, 20215 yr by Bob stark

Yes Kante can’t be MOTM as he wasn’t good enough in attack. Then I thought maybe Mendy but I changed my mind as he didn’t play a single killer pass. Needs to do better in that department. 

1 hour ago, Dean said:

Yes Kante can’t be MOTM as he wasn’t good enough in attack. Then I thought maybe Mendy but I changed my mind as he didn’t play a single killer pass. Needs to do better in that department. 

I thought Christensen played quite well, but he didn't make a single save down to his right, didn't even get his hands on any shot. Must try harder.

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

We will need him to play good vs Atletico too so hopefully he will manage to rest for the Atletico game as well.

In this more free role while having a DM behind him he always plays the best games, if we keep the back 4 formation Kovacic will need to play behind him, though I also hope that we go back to a back 3 formation where both him and Kovacic will have more freedom to run with the ball.

It's a combination of appropriate rest and opponent, something Sarri and Lampard didn't utilize and played him all game every game (when he was fit) like it was still 2016. It not only hindered us but also him.

Tuchel has left him out in games where he (present day version) tends to frustrate leaving him fresh for games like yesterday where the pace of the game requires him. Of all the good things Tuchel has done so far his management of Kante has what i've been most happiest with, starter in high paced games and on the bench vs teams that will pack their defense and try and sh*thouse a result..

45 minutes ago, dkw said:

I thought Christensen played quite well, but he didn't make a single save down to his right, didn't even get his hands on any shot. Must try harder.

There was a glimpse of old Christensen yesterday, made an awful pass and we ended up being in grave danger. I’m glad he didn’t let that go to his head and had a decent performance.

A few years ago he would have mentally shut down.

2 hours ago, Bob stark said:

This, I don't get it what people want from their dm. 

Against leeds Ziyech and Pulisic was pretty much useless. It was as expected though. Pulisic is always useless on the right and ziyech has struggled big time playing in this 10ish role under Tuchel 

He wasnt playing as DM

2 hours ago, Dean said:

Yes Kante can’t be MOTM as he wasn’t good enough in attack. Then I thought maybe Mendy but I changed my mind as he didn’t play a single killer pass. Needs to do better in that department. 

If Mendy was tasked with moving the ball forward and progressing play, then I would agree. But he wasnt tasked with that, however he was rock solid in carrying out his role and made a couple of crucial saves that won us a point.

Ngolo on the other hand was ineffective on the ball, and did not meet expectations for what a ball carrying centre mid (i.e the role he was playing) should contribute.

Clearly opinions are divided.

Some people on here are happy with him simply running around and disrupting play, and then taking the easy/safe option with his passing simply to keep possession. Thats a perfectly valid opinion to have, albeit not one I agree with.

Others, including myself, expect much more from a player who is allowed so much time on the ball, and for him to have a positive influence on the game,  by using the ball to progress play and have the ability to look up, spot a run and start attacks with a penetrating forward pass once in a while.

In some games I would agree with those who like him keeping things simple, but this was not one of those games, and he was extremely wasteful in his play. I say wasteful NOT because he gave the ball away, but due to the opportunity costs resulting from his consistent inability to play a penetrative forward pass to people making runs.

1 hour ago, dkw said:

I thought Christensen played quite well, but he didn't make a single save down to his right, didn't even get his hands on any shot. Must try harder.

😂

27 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

He wasnt playing as DM

So what role is he playing? 

18 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

If Mendy was tasked with moving the ball forward and progressing play, then I would agree. But he wasnt tasked with that, however he was rock solid in carrying out his role and made a couple of crucial saves that won us a point.

Ngolo on the other hand was ineffective on the ball, and did not meet expectations for what a ball carrying centre mid (i.e the role he was playing) should contribute.

Clearly opinions are divided.

Some people on here are happy with him simply running around and disrupting play, and then taking the easy/safe option with his passing simply to keep possession. Thats a perfectly valid opinion to have, albeit not one I agree with.

Others, including myself, expect much more from a player who is allowed so much time on the ball, and for him to have a positive influence on the game,  by using the ball to progress play and have the ability to look up, spot a run and start attacks with a penetrating forward pass once in a while.

In some games I would agree with those who like him keeping things simple, but this was not one of those games, and he was extremely wasteful in his play. I say wasteful NOT because he gave the ball away, but due to the opportunity costs resulting from his consistent inability to play a penetrative forward pass to people making runs.

Morning Jim. I have read through everything again and have decided to not engage any further because I believe it's a deliberate tactic to deflect attention away from Jorginho's performance yesterday. That was the performance that held us back the most yesterday not Kante's. We effectively played 90 minutes with 10 players.

32 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

If Mendy was tasked with moving the ball forward and progressing play, then I would agree. But he wasnt tasked with that, however he was rock solid in carrying out his role and made a couple of crucial saves that won us a point.

Ngolo on the other hand was ineffective on the ball, and did not meet expectations for what a ball carrying centre mid (i.e the role he was playing) should contribute.

Clearly opinions are divided.

Some people on here are happy with him simply running around and disrupting play, and then taking the easy/safe option with his passing simply to keep possession. Thats a perfectly valid opinion to have, albeit not one I agree with.

Others, including myself, expect much more from a player who is allowed so much time on the ball, and for him to have a positive influence on the game,  by using the ball to progress play and have the ability to look up, spot a run and start attacks with a penetrating forward pass once in a while.

In some games I would agree with those who like him keeping things simple, but this was not one of those games, and he was extremely wasteful in his play. I say wasteful NOT because he gave the ball away, but due to the opportunity costs resulting from his consistent inability to play a penetrative forward pass to people making runs.

So kante job is to win ball, bring the ball forward and make penetrative pass. 

Wow, I can't think of any current playing midfielder who can do all that consistently game after game. 

I thought he had a fairly good game yesterday . Won possession back well and I don’t recall him being overly sloppy or negative with his passing.
 

Only real negative for me was playing a poor pass across goal rather than shooting when he was basically clean through. 

1 hour ago, dansubrosa said:

There was a glimpse of old Christensen yesterday, made an awful pass and we ended up being in grave danger. I’m glad he didn’t let that go to his head and had a decent performance.

A few years ago he would have mentally shut down.

Yeah it was good to see it not affect him.

1 hour ago, just said:

Morning Jim. I have read through everything again and have decided to not engage any further because I believe it's a deliberate tactic to deflect attention away from Jorginho's performance yesterday. That was the performance that held us back the most yesterday not Kante's. We effectively played 90 minutes with 10 players.

It is not a Kante vs Jorginho thing and there is no merit or reason to make it one. I don't think either performed well enough yesterday, for what we need within this current system. That said, on balance I think Jorginho was the better of the 2 against leeds, given the different roles they had, and there is no doubt that .he suits the possession game more than Kante does

For me, I remain of the view that Ngolo didn't offer enough in the role he played yesterday, or make the most of the possession he enjoyed, by failing every time to advance the ball creatively, spotting a run and playing the ball forward. We clearly have different views, and both have explained why we have them.

2 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

It is not a Kante vs Jorginho thing and there is no merit or reason to make it one. I don't think either performed well enough yesterday, for what we need within this current system. That said, on balance I think Jorginho was the better of the 2 against leeds, given the different roles they had, and there is no doubt that .he suits the possession game more than Kante does

For me, I remain of the view that Ngolo didn't offer enough in the role he played yesterday, or make the most of the possession he enjoyed, by failing every time to advance the ball creatively, spotting a run and playing the ball forward. We clearly have different views, and both have explained why we have them.

Really?

Wow  

 

2 hours ago, Nibs said:

Really?

Wow  

 

Yes - I do, on balance, think that Jorginho was the more effective in the role he played, compared to Kante and the role he played.  Purely for a) the requirements of those roles and b) the circumstances in which the game unfolded.

a) The role he was playing. I.e the deep lying defensive midfielder, whose job was to protect the back 4 and keep possession ticking over. He did this for the most part without fuss or drama. Clean sheet achieved, job done.

b) The circs in the game. He was man marked, often with 2 Leeds players on him. Despite that he did what his role required (point a), rarely lost possession and his passing stats were ok

To start with, let me be clear that I am not Saying Jorgi was good, only that he was ok, and better than Kante given A and B.

Kante on the over hand was not the deep lying midfielder, and was clearly the more attacking/progressive of our 2 CMs. He  also had a lot of time on the ball. Yet, despite the time he had in possession, he didn't do what I would have expected of a player in that role. He missed the runs of players ahead of him (mount, Ziyech, Pulisic and Kai), he failed to pass forward any through balls to any of them (that I can remember), regularly played it too safe/sideways/backwards and finally, he regularly dallied on the ball, letting his indecision slow down our attacks and allow Leeds to get back into shape. Simply not good enough for a progressive CM tasked with driving the team forward and launching attacks.

I stress again, this isnt a Kante vs Jorgi thing - frankly they both didnt offer enough in the very different roles (and game circumstances) in which they were playing.

Edited March 14, 20215 yr by nonotnowjim

31 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Yes - I do, on balance, think that Jorginho was the more effective in the role he played, compared to Kante and the role he played.  Purely for a) the requirements of those roles and b) the circumstances in which the game unfolded.

a) The role he was playing. I.e the deep lying defensive midfielder, whose job was to protect the back 4 and keep possession ticking over. He did this for the most part without fuss or drama. Clean sheet achieved, job done.

b) The circs in the game. He was man marked, often with 2 Leeds players on him. Despite that he did what his role required (point a), rarely lost possession and his passing stats were ok

To start with, let me be clear that I am not Saying Jorgi was good, only that he was ok, and better than Kante given A and B.

Kante on the over hand was not the deep lying midfielder, and was clearly the more attacking/progressive of our 2 CMs. He  also had a lot of time on the ball. Yet, despite the time he had in possession, he didn't do what I would have expected of a player in that role. He missed the runs of players ahead of him (mount, Ziyech, Pulisic and Kai), he failed to pass forward any through balls to any of them (that I can remember), regularly played it too safe/sideways/backwards and finally, he regularly dallied on the ball, letting his indecision slow down our attacks and allow Leeds to get back into shape. Simply not good enough for a progressive CM tasked with driving the team forward and launching attacks.

I stress again, this isnt a Kante vs Jorgi thing - frankly they both didnt offer enough in the very different roles (and game circumstances) in which they were playing.

We all know that Kante does have his limitations in the final third , this can be said though of Kovacic and Jorginho too. They all get nose bleeds 30 yards out and frequently make the wrong decision. That said yesterday, Kante drove us forward regularly, tracked back ,tackled and made three key passes. Without him we would have been overrun in the middle of the park. We were poor upfront , with players frequently not making the runs expected of them and on many occasions our final ball wasn't good enough...this wasn't only Kante. Conditions though played a major part, the pitch was in poor condition and myself living around 35 miles from Leeds I can assure you it was very windy, Elland Road being especially prone to the latter. We all sit and watch the same game and come to differing conclusions hence none of us are right and none of us wrong, its what makes football such a great game. 

This thread has shown that Kante is an absolute monster of a player. Even in games when he win ball after ball, bring the ball forward constantly, you can still hear people constantly complaining about his performance. 

Imagine if we put this standard on all of our player, the list of complaint will be endless 

1 hour ago, Bob stark said:

This thread has shown that Kante is an absolute monster of a player. Even in games when he win ball after ball, bring the ball forward constantly, you can still hear people constantly complaining about his performance. 

Imagine if we put this standard on all of our player, the list of complaint will be endless 

Yup. Remains the only genuinely world class player in the squad. Clubs will be lining up to take him off our hands in the summer. 

23 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

Some people on here are happy with him simply running around and disrupting play, and then taking the easy/safe option with his passing simply to keep possession.

And that Makalele was just gash at the killer defence-splitting pass too.  All he did was win the ball back and play it short.

To be honest, I thought Kante played very well, and I didn't see any chances where he had brought the ball out and one or other of our forwards had mad a decent run for him to pick out.  I did have to miss the last 20 minutes though, only had those on the radio, so I was relying on the Talksports twats to remind me how many inch-perfect passes to Werner Kante refused to make

1 hour ago, yorkleyblue said:

And that Makalele was just gash at the killer defence-splitting pass too.  All he did was win the ball back and play it short.

To be honest, I thought Kante played very well, and I didn't see any chances where he had brought the ball out and one or other of our forwards had mad a decent run for him to pick out.  I did have to miss the last 20 minutes though, only had those on the radio, so I was relying on the Talksports twats to remind me how many inch-perfect passes to Werner Kante refused to make

No arguments on maka. He played his role brilliantly. The role kante had on Saturday was very different to the maka role however. 
 

There were numerous, at least 7 that were blatant, times when kante failed to spot a runner and instead played the easy option.  Lots of wasted opportunities to use the possession he had. 

16 hours ago, charierre said:

We all know that Kante does have his limitations in the final third , this can be said though of Kovacic and Jorginho too. They all get nose bleeds 30 yards out and frequently make the wrong decision. That said yesterday, Kante drove us forward regularly, tracked back ,tackled and made three key passes. Without him we would have been overrun in the middle of the park. We were poor upfront , with players frequently not making the runs expected of them and on many occasions our final ball wasn't good enough...this wasn't only Kante. Conditions though played a major part, the pitch was in poor condition and myself living around 35 miles from Leeds I can assure you it was very windy, Elland Road being especially prone to the latter. We all sit and watch the same game and come to differing conclusions hence none of us are right and none of us wrong, its what makes football such a great game. 

Not arguing that kova and jorgi both have their limitations. Agree that our final ball wasn't good enough, but  I would go further than saying this "wasn't only kante" by saying "this wasn't kante". Unfortunately kante rarely attempted to play what would be considered a penetrative final ball, and far too often played it safe. 
 

I don't blame the pitch or wind for kantes refusal to play the ball through when players were making runs, simply a lack of vision and or trust in his own passing to be able to make the pass .

1 hour ago, nonotnowjim said:

Not arguing that kova and jorgi both have their limitations. Agree that our final ball wasn't good enough, but  I would go further than saying this "wasn't only kante" by saying "this wasn't kante". Unfortunately kante rarely attempted to play what would be considered a penetrative final ball, and far too often played it safe. 
 

I don't blame the pitch or wind for kantes refusal to play the ball through when players were making runs, simply a lack of vision and or trust in his own passing to be able to make the pass .

Three key passes suggests otherwise?

3 hours ago, charierre said:

Three key passes suggests otherwise?

Would like to know what exactly those 3 key passes were.

25 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

Would like to know what exactly those 3 key passes were.

For obvious reasons I couldn't list them, it is just what is quoted on the game  and I ain't rewatching the game to show who's swings their dick the best. The same site though does list Bruno Fernandes has having achieved 5 key passes the most of the weekend and no City player having achieved more than 2 against Fulham. We are to assume that each game was judged by the same metric. As I said earlier we all watch the same game and come to differing opinions on who has done well and who hasn't. Myself I am firmly in the camp that says that Kante wasn't fully the problem on Saturday, the manager knows his skillset and he went onto the pitch and did his job unlike a couple of others.