As we saw today against Roma, this weekend against Palace, and even last against City; teams are pushing up and pressing effectively. Almost like a full pitch press, our passing lanes are being blocked off, and the full backs have been ineffective due to being isolated. So not only is the width blocked off but the midfield is clogged.

It doesn't help that Fabregas doesn't have the legs to work in a 2-man midfield but we don't have the personnel at the moment to replace him.

Should we return to a 4-3-3, or a 4-2-3-1? We just have to change something up, it seems teams have figured us out. 

Teams have sussed us out since the back end of last year.  How we need to play from now on I haven't a clue, I'll leave that to the man who gets paid to do so.  But what I do know is, this passing out from the back isn't working at all and we are too slow to get the ball out from the back.  Hazard, Morata and Pedro are all quick players, so surely getting the ball out to them when the opponent is pressing high is the highest priority? 

It's not the system, it's the players. Half of them aren't good enough and are being exposed this season with a full calender of games to play. When your wingbacks are players of the calibre of Marcos Alonso and Zappacosta (neither one of which are really CFC calibre players), it's not really surprising to watch us suffer. The weakness in those positions is further amplified with a 3-5-2 where there is even more pressure on the wingbacks to help generate attacks. We were effectively attacking with only 2 players until Conte switched back to the 3-4-3. 

Blame the board for undermining the managers position yet again. We still don't have a complete midfielder who can help with our transition from the back to the midfield. Gonalons is better than all the midfielders we started today. How is that acceptable for a club of our size? The man wanted both Tolisso and Bakayoko and we only gave him one of those. We missed out on Alex Sandro, Bonucci, Danilo, Tolisso and the list is endless even from 2 seasons ago. Shop at Aldi and get what you deserve. We need to be shopping at waitrose. And I know some genius will highlight how much we spent last summer. But who did we buy? What was the net spend? Did we really improve the squad significantly? So why are we shocked? Conte deserves so much better than he got!

 

15 minutes ago, The Liquidator said:

It's not the system, it's the players. Half of them aren't good enough and are being exposed this season with a full calender of games to play. When your wingbacks are players of the calibre of Marcos Alonso and Zappacosta (neither one of which are really CFC calibre players), it's not really surprising to watch us suffer. The weakness in those positions is further amplified with a 3-5-2 where there is even more pressure on the wingbacks to help generate attacks. We were effectively attacking with only 2 players until Conte switched back to the 3-4-3. 

If they aren't good enough to play the formation anymore, then wouldn't it be best to change it so we can get the best out of them ? In all honesty, i think you can throw this criticism at most players, i don't think there are many players in the game that are great at playing it out from the back. In my time watching football i have ever only seen a handful of teams pull it off well, the ones that usually attempt it have massive weaknesses. Even the very best teams that do it today aren't that great at it. I was watching Real Madrid trying it yesterday and even they were making a mess of it at times. As soon as players start closing you down, the tactic is in danger of collapsing.

The only way to play this tactic is to play it quickly, you need to get that ball into midfield within 3 or 4 seconds or you risk the opposition being all over you. But most of the time the opposition are aware of it so they start pressing the defenders as soon as the keeper get's hold of the ball. Once that happens, there is no chance of playing out from the back, even the best teams wouldn't be able to do it.

As has been said, it's not the system, it's the players. They seem to be unable to play out from the back. More technical players would have no problem dealing with a high press.

22 minutes ago, Barrettinator said:

As has been said, it's not the system, it's the players. They seem to be unable to play out from the back. More technical players would have no problem dealing with a high press.

But they also need to know how to defend, there aren't many top defenders out there that are good at both.

When city are being pressed, KDB Fernandhino and Silva drop deeper and collect the ball. Our midfield is so static compared to them. 

If a team send up 4 attackers to press high, then surely our 3 defenders and 3 midfielders, 6 total, should be able to get the ball out.

3 hours ago, The Liquidator said:

It's not the system, it's the players. Half of them aren't good enough and are being exposed this season with a full calender of games to play. When your wingbacks are players of the calibre of Marcos Alonso and Zappacosta (neither one of which are really CFC calibre players), it's not really surprising to watch us suffer. The weakness in those positions is further amplified with a 3-5-2 where there is even more pressure on the wingbacks to help generate attacks. We were effectively attacking with only 2 players until Conte switched back to the 3-4-3. 

Blame the board for undermining the managers position yet again. We still don't have a complete midfielder who can help with our transition from the back to the midfield. Gonalons is better than all the midfielders we started today. How is that acceptable for a club of our size? The man wanted both Tolisso and Bakayoko and we only gave him one of those. We missed out on Alex Sandro, Bonucci, Danilo, Tolisso and the list is endless even from 2 seasons ago. Shop at Aldi and get what you deserve. We need to be shopping at waitrose. And I know some genius will highlight how much we spent last summer. But who did we buy? What was the net spend? Did we really improve the squad significantly? So why are we shocked? Conte deserves so much better than he got!

 

Soon he will get the sack. Is how our club works. Has been successful but still...

3 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

If they aren't good enough to play the formation anymore, then wouldn't it be best to change it so we can get the best out of them ? In all honesty, i think you can throw this criticism at most players, i don't think there are many players in the game that are great at playing it out from the back. In my time watching football i have ever only seen a handful of teams pull it off well, the ones that usually attempt it have massive weaknesses. Even the very best teams that do it today aren't that great at it. I was watching Real Madrid trying it yesterday and even they were making a mess of it at times. As soon as players start closing you down, the tactic is in danger of collapsing.

The only way to play this tactic is to play it quickly, you need to get that ball into midfield within 3 or 4 seconds or you risk the opposition being all over you. But most of the time the opposition are aware of it so they start pressing the defenders as soon as the keeper get's hold of the ball. Once that happens, there is no chance of playing out from the back, even the best teams wouldn't be able to do it.

Cahill and Luiz cannot play in a two man defence. Only time they've been able to was to win us the CL, ironically. It's never worked apart from then. Alonso whilst he may be a bit of a cult hero for his heroics against Spurs, he's not the level we need at left wing back and it's exactly why Conte wanted Sandro. He would struggle in a 4 man defence due to his lack of pace, same with Moses who whilst he may be quick would definietly not have the positional sense to play right back.

Our usual back five is poor on paper and it's showing since Azpilicueta has had his poor run of form. Rudiger has to start the next game.

Also, Kante is just such a huge miss for us. Bakayoko struggles next to Cesc but I think most players would as it's double the workload.

Our attack needs some freshness to it in the wing positions. Willian has been here 4 years now, Pedro is entering his 3rd season and Eden has been here for 6 seasons. A right winger is paramount next season, along with a LWB, a striker and even possibly a CB.

Edited October 19, 20178 yr by JMaher94

39 minutes ago, JMaher94 said:

Cahill and Luiz cannot play in a two man defence. Only time they've been able to was to win us the CL, ironically. It's never worked apart from then. Alonso whilst he may be a bit of a cult hero for his heroics against Spurs, he's not the level we need at left wing back and it's exactly why Conte wanted Sandro. He would struggle in a 4 man defence due to his lack of pace, same with Moses who whilst he may be quick would definietly not have the positional sense to play right back.

Our usual back five is poor on paper and it's showing since Azpilicueta has had his poor run of form. Rudiger has to start the next game.

Also, Kante is just such a huge miss for us. Bakayoko struggles next to Cesc but I think most players would as it's double the workload.

Our attack needs some freshness to it in the wing positions. Willian has been here 4 years now, Pedro is entering his 3rd season and Eden has been here for 6 seasons. A right winger is paramount next season, along with a LWB, a striker and even possibly a CB.

Then maybe for the good of the team, both Luiz and Cahill will have to be dropped and bring Christensen and Rudiger in to play CB in their place. Have Azpilicueta and Zappacosta as full backs. Kante, Bakayoko and Fabregas make up the 3 man midfield and Pedro, Hazard and Morata are the 3 attackers.

I'm not sure if we need to be this quite drastic yet, but there definitely needs to be a few tweaks to our tactics. What we are doing now just isn't working.

i want to see us play a 4-4-2 formation at the weekend. Lets freshen things up a bit.

 

Presuming Baka and Luiz are out i would go with this team against Watford.

 

Tibo

Dave Cahill Rudiger Christensen

Zappa Fab Pedro Alonso

Morata Hazard

1 hour ago, dynamite said:

i want to see us play a 4-4-2 formation at the weekend. Lets freshen things up a bit.

 

Presuming Baka and Luiz are out i would go with this team against Watford.

 

Tibo

Dave Cahill Rudiger Christensen

Zappa Fab Pedro Alonso

Morata Hazard

That midfield would get sliced apart by Watford, Dacoure has looked amazing this season and Chalobah/Cleverly aren't slouches -- they can pick out decent passes.

In fact, Marco Silva has Watford looking very solid, it'll probably prove to be a tough game.  

15 minutes ago, Theafonis said:

That midfield would get sliced apart by Watford, Dacoure has looked amazing this season and Chalobah/Cleverly aren't slouches -- they can pick out decent passes.

In fact, Marco Silva has Watford looking very solid, it'll probably prove to be a tough game.  

We don't seem to have many options though, or any holding midfielders available that can protect our defence. No Baka, Kante, Drinkwater or Luiz. They can all do that job, but wont play sadly.

 

I agree that this is risky. Honestly I was looking at the odds for this match and if i wasn't a Chelsea fan i would be taking the bet on Watford to win at 8/1. Very good odds considering we've no midfield and they're in form and just beat Arsenal at the weekend.

4 hours ago, dynamite said:

i want to see us play a 4-4-2 formation at the weekend. Lets freshen things up a bit.

 

Presuming Baka and Luiz are out i would go with this team against Watford.

 

Tibo

Dave Cahill Rudiger Christensen

Zappa Fab Pedro Alonso

Morata Hazard

Possibly up there with one of the worst line ups i've ever seen suggested on this site.

We ain't gonna be able to play it out from the back so long as Cahill is in the back 3. The amount of times he held the ball last night, pretend to ping a long ball up field then throw arms up and knock it a couple of metres to the side to Christensen. 

In my opinion the problem is two fold. Firstly, some of our defenders are not great passers, I'm including Courtois in that too. The opposition players know now to press our defenders quickly (especially when Tibo has the ball) and they tend to make a mistake. By doing this it really nullified the effectiveness of our wing backs as they where not receiving the ball to transition the play forward. Rectifying this is not easy. You either hope that our current crop of defenders will eventually get better at passing, or you invest in defenders who are already accomplished passers. Neither solution in going to work immediately as there is no guaranty that our current crop of defenders can get better at passing, nor is it a given that an accomplished passing defender is going to be any good at defending.  

The second problem is our midfield. However great Kante is at wining the ball back, he is not the transitional type midfielder we need. Bakayoko is still really young and has a lot to learn, which shows in his play. His awareness of what is around him is terrible, and his thought process is too slow to be playing in the midfield for a team aiming for titles and trophy's. I know I'm being harsh on Baka, and I'm not saying he hasn't got the ability to be a great player, just that he's not there yet. And then there is Cesc Fabregas. He really isn't the player we need in our midfield in this formation. He's a luxury player, who at his age should only be playing in the number 10 role with no defensive responsibility's, which will not work with the current formations we deploy. Maybe Danny Drinkwater will be the short term solution to the issues we're having in midfield at the moment, but he is not the long term answer. If Antonio is going to stick with these formations, we need to invest in the players to fit his style.

8 hours ago, coco said:

When city are being pressed, KDB Fernandhino and Silva drop deeper and collect the ball. Our midfield is so static compared to them. 

If a team send up 4 attackers to press high, then surely our 3 defenders and 3 midfielders, 6 total, should be able to get the ball out.

When you add our two wing backs to that, that should be more than enough to get the ball out. But then they seem to panic and throw away even the simplest passes. Hit it a little too long, control great passes that have beaten the press with a terrible touch, etc. 

Think Morata also needs to be better with his passing and his ball control. He has been piss poor. Always giving the ball away at the slightest push from a defender. He's supposed to be the anchor or as Conte likes to put it, the reference point for the rest of the team. Last night, he had 53% pass completion rate. I don't even know what to say about that.

I think the 3-4-3 is the way forward but as noted by a few others the calibre of the players we have also combined with how familiar other teams have become to the formation is starting to show,lets be honest we had a terrible transfer window and with emenalo still throwing his ego about, the mananger in charge of the team is always going to struggle to get the players he desires!!!!

i would love to see us go back to the old

4-1-2-1-2 or 4-1-2-3

but again do we have the players to operate in such a formation?

we were solid in the 04/05 season with the 4-1-2-3

With the squad we got could perhaps look like this?

GK courtois

RB azpi

CB cahil/roudiger

CB luiz/christensen

LB alonso

CDM kante

CM bakayoko

CM fabregas

LW hazard

RW pedro/willian

ST morata

The last thing i ant to see is us go back into a permanent back 4. We've made signings that fit a back 3. I would hate to see D.Luiz, Alonso, Moses, Zappacosta anywhere near a back 4. 

The 3-4-3 has been exposed because if you put heavy pressure on the back three you control the game, City and Palace proved it so did Roma last night. 

Our midfield has been the shakiest part of the side during our recent run, since the AM game. Baka, Fab and Kante were overrun against City, Baka and Fab were overrun against Palace, and Baka and Luiz looked off the pace last night. Alonso, who has been tremendous since he joined, has looked uncomfortable and struggled to get involved. Moses was pretty poor against City and Palace, although I think Zappa has done pretty well since the Moses injury. 

Courtois gives me nightmares when teams press us as his judgement and passing are poor.

The fact that the midfield has struggled so badly (partly fatigue but also City's tactics in that game, largely due to the absence of Kante in the last two games) has meant the attack has had very little ball, although they looked better on the break last night. Willian has been in the worst form of his Chelsea career. Hazard and Morata are a fantastic pairing, but Batshuayi was useless against Palace, proving that Conte has no usable options to call on there.

We are certainly in a very rough patch (we've been outplayed in three successive games), but hopefully Conte can sort things out and get them playing with more confidence and composure. I'm not sure the current situation is the best one in which to throw in youngsters like Musonda, but he has to be given a chance at some stage. Christensen has looked very good, and should allow Luiz to fill in for Kante, as there are no other CM options (I can't comment on Kyle Scott as I've not seen him play. I'd be a lot happier if we'd kept Chalobah, but he'd no doubt have got injured if he'd stayed, anyway).

4 Men defence has been exposed ages ago, just saying. The midfield is not covering the back, without Kante covering the ground the opposition are running at our last line of defence at will. We would have struggled with any version of the 4 defenders system with our current injuries.

10 minutes ago, icecoolguy22 said:

4 Men defence has been exposed ages ago, just saying. The midfield is not covering the back, without Kante covering the ground the opposition are running at our last line of defence at will. We would have struggled with any version of the 4 defenders system with our current injuries.

It's not the 4 man defence that was the issue, it was playing Luiz and an ageing Ivanovic. But we now have Christensen, who most of us already say looks better than Luiz defensively. 

 

3 at the back have not been exposed. Fabregas has. Those 3 games - City, Palace and Roma - he played almost 80% of the time in the middle and it was a disaster experience for the team. When we got outplayed with Baka and Kante - then we should reconsider our system. But that still never happened. But right now the reason why we are not finding ourselves humiliated is exactly the system. With 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-1-1 its going to be way more difficult for our current squad and shape. 

It's all about Emenalo The C. Because of him we rely on 3 guys in the middle, one of them, not reliable at all(Cesc). He brought 2 injured average players despite we already knew that Cesc and Kante isnt working. So please direct your criticism to the C. 

Edited October 19, 20178 yr by Pendergast

We struggle in the middle of the pitch.  We have tanks in midfield right now and not a single person in midfield who can handle a press.  That's the problem.  Who out of Cesc, Bakayoko, and Luiz would you trust to receive the ball in midfield and pass a defender with a nice dribble or quick flick forward to a truly technical player like hazard or morata.  None of them.  Kante actually does this faily well, he doesn't get near the recognition he deserves for his ability to move past defenders.  Moses also helps given he has technical ability and pace as well.

Yesterday we had zappacosta, luiz, alonso, bakayoko, fabregas, dave, cahill, and christensen trying to break down a high pressing line.  Conte saw this was a problem early, I have no doubt, but going up 2-0 early (luckily) allowed us to stick with the system.  It's no wonder he subbed earlier than he does 99% of the time and brought on a more technical pedro and it worked.  After pedro was on we could relieve some pressure by having another outlet instead of Luiz who was running around like a chicken with his head cut off. 

The last point is (and I have made it in another thread) that we have built a team that is not meant to control the game through possession and attack.  We are a blue collar club that beats you physically and allows you the ball only to counter with pace and aggression.  Yesterday, for whatever reason, we were out-physicaled by Roma.  They took it to us and it was a lucky draw for us.  The midfield must be sorted without Kante.  We absorbed too much pressure in our back 5 and that lead to goals.