4 hours ago, LengmanJedi said:

He won't he's f**king sh*t! After watching the paok game I've finally had enough of the woofter he reminds me of a prozzie spends most of his time on his back moaning!

2

The voice of experience?

4 hours ago, yorkleyblue said:

Didn't we win 3-0 in all but one of the matches last year that we used a false 9 in?

I can't be bothered to look it up but I remember it worked well for us the first few times but not so well after that, but by then our form had fallen off a cliff anyway so it's hard to draw any conclusions.

We're playing football very differently this season so I'd argue that our experiences playing with a false 9 last season have limited relevance anyway. I'd be up for giving it another try.

The voice of experience?

Well aren't you a joker :/

6 hours ago, yorkleyblue said:

Didn't we win 3-0 in all but one of the matches last year that we used a false 9 in?

CFC league games with false#9 17/18

Huddersfield 1-3 win

Everton 0-0 draw

Bournemouth 0-3 loss

Watford 4-1 loss

Man City 1-0 loss

Courtesy of coco stat finder.

I can't help but feel if Chelsea were in Spain, we'd see Hazard as a false 9 and CHO with taking Hazards current spot.  I also think in part that's why La Liga has seen more Ballon d'or winners.  When would Messi's career have begun if he were in England?  While I don't see CHO as a Messi... I could see him winning a Ballon d'Or

36 minutes ago, Wearyourblue said:

I can't help but feel if Chelsea were in Spain, we'd see Hazard as a false 9 and CHO with taking Hazards current spot.  I also think in part that's why La Liga has seen more Ballon d'or winners.  When would Messi's career have begun if he were in England?  While I don't see CHO as a Messi... I could see him winning a Ballon d'Or

Would solve the problem of Eden having to track back, CHO younger, fitter and possibly keener to run up and down the wing helping Alonso, plenty of overlapping by those two in attack, yeah it could work. But how would Eden do in the middle ? With Pedro or Willian on the right and the other waiting on the bench to replace any of those three. 

I won't read too much into those 5 games last season when we went false#9, the team and management were not playing ball last season, so not fair to judge the false#9 on those games imo.

On 25/09/2018 at 21:37, DaRick said:

Werner is IMO best suited to counter-attacking sides due to his extreme pace. His movement is again not terrific, he's not very strong and he's not a very clinical finisher. 

I would not have Mitrovic as first-choice for a club like Chelsea - his first touch is good, but his movement again isn't anything remarkable. However, he would be a quality second option as a target man and I would be happy if he replaced Giroud. 

 

 

 

 

Following on from the above, I had an extended discussion in the Mitrovic transfer thread about both Mitrovic/Werner and came up with this reasoning (and yes, Werner has played on the wings)...

Thoughts?

37 minutes ago, DaRick said:

Nah, IMO both are only similar in that they bully defenders using their strength. What made Costa so dangerous was his movement - not only making runs to suck defenders out of shape to make room for teammates, but also to position himself and then time his own runs into the box.

Mitrovic on the other hand is more of a target man. Not bad at movement, but his main strength is holding the ball up, aerial ability and strength - the perfect target man. He would fit Sarri's system, but as a second-option target man to replace Giroud. Better finisher too.

On the other hand, with experience his movements and the timing of his runs may improve, much like Drogba's did. In his first season, I remember him being a somewhat limited target man but by 2006-07 he could do everything. 

I would sign him as a second striker to replace Giroud and then see how he progresses. If he impresses while Morata continues to underperform, then Mitrovic (having replaced Giroud) should be first choice. Should he take off from there, we may well have found our Costa (well, Drogba really) replacement. If both contribute a bit between them (with Morata off the bench probably like in Real Madrid) then we make the decision about them next summer. 

I would consider someone like Werner in a wing-forward position, coming off the bench. He is at least passable on both feet and his extreme pace will scare tired defenders. 

However, as a CF, no way. His movement isn't bad (if unremarkable), but his lack of strength and his inconsistent finishing (putting it mildly) make him unsuitable to be a CF in our side. 

I doubt he would agree to sign as a WF, so this is all theoretical anyway. 

Edited September 27, 20187 yr by DaRick

6 hours ago, DaRick said:

Following on from the above, I had an extended discussion in the Mitrovic transfer thread about both Mitrovic/Werner and came up with this reasoning (and yes, Werner has played on the wings)...

Thoughts?

I think it's impossible to say which striker will or won't suit Sarri's system, when both higuian and mertens, have thrived under sarri. 

They are polar opposites. 

I think any sort of decent finisher would be better than we have at the moment! 

On 25/09/2018 at 17:21, Wearyourblue said:

I can't help but feel if Chelsea were in Spain, we'd see Hazard as a false 9 and CHO with taking Hazards current spot.  I also think in part that's why La Liga has seen more Ballon d'or winners.  When would Messi's career have begun if he were in England?  While I don't see CHO as a Messi... I could see him winning a Ballon d'Or

Disagree. Hazard doesn't play well with his back to goal, he has to be given the chance to run at people to draw defenders -- this will leave space for other runners. 

He had a pretty nice goal vs Liverpool that started with his back to the goal. 

1 hour ago, Theafonis said:

Disagree. Hazard doesn't play well with his back to goal, he has to be given the chance to run at people to draw defenders -- this will leave space for other runners. 

 

3 hours ago, Wearyourblue said:

He had a pretty nice goal vs Liverpool that started with his back to the goal. 

 

Right, but he started from midfield with some nice play through and dribbling. Would he have scored that if he was all the way upfront next to the centrebacks?

On 26/09/2018 at 02:07, coco said:

I won't read too much into those 5 games last season when we went false#9, the team and management were not playing ball last season, so not fair to judge the false#9 on those games imo.

Yeah, that's great point. Not having the ball and false 9 at the same time is some form of travesty that only boycotting manager would deliver. 

But even for today's formation he won't fit, I suppose. Kovacic can't score goals, Kante can't score goals, Willian and Pedro are limited in scorring, Azpilicueta is bad on  this end of the floor. 

Giroud is doing actually a pretty good job. All he's gotta do now is gain some confidence and score some goal for the club. With him we can still compete for the title and win some of the domestic cups/Europa League. 

Edited September 28, 20187 yr by Giordano_Bruno

We definitly should.
Our strikeforce is rather embarrassing for a top club.
One painfully average spaniard and a former Arsenal-reserve is all we have and that is clearly nowhere near good enough.
It's a big shame because if we had a top class striker like Liverpool, City, Tottenham and United. we would have been right up there come may.
 
 

Who are Liverpool and utds top class strikers? Firmino and Lukaku?

I would argue that both are anything but top class. 1 is hard working but isn't suited to play as a traditional striker and who would be best served as a supporting role as an ATM (firmino), and the other is a limited flat track bully who misses as many, if not more than morays.

On 25/09/2018 at 21:34, coco said:

CFC league games with false#9 17/18

cherry-picked bollocks (and not in a good way!)

Courtesy of coco the selective and biased stat finder.

 

Can't fathom why people are suggesting arnautovitch or mitrovitch. Beggars belief, we will be back to Solomon Rondon and Peter crouch levels next!

The grass isn't always greener, and there is (still) a shortage of top class options available. All the time we are on track for top 4 then it is highly unlikely that we will be looking to replace a 60mill player with anyone else in the winter transfer window.

As a rule of thumb, Chelsea are not a team likely to put faith in an unproven player, so anyone other than a top draw signing is unlikely to happen. Those players won't be available in the winter window.

If we wanted to replace Alvaro, then we would have probably done so with higuain in the summer.

1 hour ago, nonotnowjim said:

Who are Liverpool and utds top class strikers? Firmino and Lukaku?

I would argue that both are anything but top class. 1 is hard working but isn't suited to play as a traditional striker and who would be best served as a supporting role as an ATM (firmino), and the other is a limited flat track bully who misses as many, if not more than morays.

Incredibly harsh on Firmino. He isn't a traditional number 9, not that it matters, since he is way more productive than what we have at the moment, 50 goals, 40 assists, in 150 games, and that's before you take into account his work rate, ball control, and movement, which are all excellent. Still only 26 aswell. Not many better in the world, and we would be a mich better side with him in it.

I agree Lukaku has his flaws, but he is still much better than what have at the moment. 

On the original point, I don't think it's embarrassing that we don't have a top forward at the moment, the club backed morata, and I can understand them giving him 2 seasons, as it was a massive outlay, but it doesn't look like it's going to work out, and no doubt we will see a new striker come in next summer. 

Why not RLC? He is option number 6 for the mid anyway. 

Either chuck 80m at Inter for Icardi or use Hazard as a striker.

Higuain, Cavani, Lewandowski etc are too old and won’t be world class for much longer.

3 hours ago, Giordano_Bruno said:

Why not RLC? He is option number 6 for the mid anyway. 

why not Gary Cahill? He is a great finisher and last choice for the CB!

Or wait....how about neither RLC or Gary Cahill, because neither of them are strikers or an upgrade (as a striker) on what we have already.

Alonso 

3 hours ago, big blue said:

Incredibly harsh on Firmino. He isn't a traditional number 9, not that it matters, since he is way more productive than what we have at the moment, 50 goals, 40 assists, in 150 games, and that's before you take into account his work rate, ball control, and movement, which are all excellent. Still only 26 aswell. Not many better in the world, and we would be a mich better side with him in it. 

Last season - Firmino scored 15 goals, averaged 0.41 goals per game, and got 7 assists with a shooting accuracy of 45%. He also chipped in with 9 kicked clearances and 6 headed clearances. He had 37 appearances and Liverpool won 56% of games that Firmino played in.

Last season - Morata scored 11 goals, averaged 0.35 goals per game, and got 6 assists with a shooting accuracy of of 43%. He also chipped in with 20 kicked clearances and 13 headed clearances. He had 31 appearances and we won 58% of games that Morata played in.

Alvaros output was pretty similar, despite playing less games, carrying a back injury and it being his first season in the epl....

....Now, I don't necessarily believe that stats tell the full story - but I use them as a snapshot to show that the grass is not always significantly greener and we should be careful what we wish for. My previous post on Firmino was to assert (my opinion) that he is not a world class striker. I stand by that. But if he is, then the stats would suggest that Morata is not far behind from a shooting accuracy/scoring/chance creation perspective, and is way ahead in usefulness at defending, particularly set pieces. 

 

 

Can’t really compare them two, Firmino slots in beautifully at Liverpool. 

Out of the younger options there are very few top class options that we can go far. The ones that come immediately to mind are Icardi and Dybala and I think we all know there is very little chance of Dybala leaving Juventus for anywhere, let alone us.

Belotti is also there but he seems a bit of 1 season wonder atm, Werner seems okay but seeing as he's german and young im sure hes destined to go Bayern soon. 

Of course in a ideal situation, we would be going for Mbappe, who has a history with us too

Mbappe, jeez. That’ll only happen if a super rich owner takes over, and splurges something ridiculous like 300m at him.

Icardi is the best shout imo.

3 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

Last season - Firmino scored 15 goals, averaged 0.41 goals per game, and got 7 assists with a shooting accuracy of 45%. He also chipped in with 9 kicked clearances and 6 headed clearances. He had 37 appearances and Liverpool won 56% of games that Firmino played in.

Last season - Morata scored 11 goals, averaged 0.35 goals per game, and got 6 assists with a shooting accuracy of of 43%. He also chipped in with 20 kicked clearances and 13 headed clearances. He had 31 appearances and we won 58% of games that Morata played in.

Alvaros output was pretty similar, despite playing less games, carrying a back injury and it being his first season in the epl....

....Now, I don't necessarily believe that stats tell the full story - but I use them as a snapshot to show that the grass is not always significantly greener and we should be careful what we wish for. My previous post on Firmino was to assert (my opinion) that he is not a world class striker. I stand by that. But if he is, then the stats would suggest that Morata is not far behind from a shooting accuracy/scoring/chance creation perspective, and is way ahead in usefulness at defending, particularly set pieces. 

 

 

Obviously you can cherry pick any stats you want to make argument. Morata missed 17 big chances last season, compared with Firmino who missed 7, and yet the shooting accuracy is similar.

I certainly didn't use just Firmino's output to say he is a big upgrade on morata, I formulated that opinion based on watching both players.

What part of firmino's game do you find underwhelming? Which strikers do you think are better than him at the moment? I can't think of many, Kane, Aguero, Suarez, Lewandowski, maybe cavani. 

Drogba scored 11 goals in his first season and 12 in his second, similar to morata, but like Firmino, he brought a bell of a lot more to the table, which I mentioned in my post.

If morata had the touch, workrate, and finishing of Firmino, this thread wouldn't even have been created.