8 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Not the first time Frank has seen that, just the first time his team as their manager has done that.

Very much a down tools performance from the players today. Come on, west ham are garbage and we made it easy for them because they worked for it and our players did not give two sh*ts. 

Frank should be worried. He knows what happens if the dressing room turns and that was not a team who wanted to play for their manager.

That is so wide of the mark it is laughable.

4 minutes ago, Nibs said:

That is so wide of the mark it is laughable.

As a forum we could all chip in and get him some therapy 

1 hour ago, coco said:

Away from home were fine, the opposition come out to play, and we find the spaces. But at home we have to play teams who get everyone behind the ball, stay compressed and concentrate on defending, then we struggle to open up teams and leave ourselves vulnerable, when the opposition wins ball we don't have all the players behind the ball.

For me the home problem can be overcome with improving our dead ball game. At the moment we have virtually zero threat coming from dead balls (bar pens). Corners we may as well take from the centre circle, then you have dangerous free kicks, again we just don't seem to have a threat, its all a bit comfortable for the opposition. 

 

I was only thinking that watching MOTD.

Seeing others sides hit great corners that cause opponents trouble. WE look in trouble every time we concede a corner yet our own are really poor and rarely come to anything. Seeing VDV grab a brace yesterday - how we are missing a defender who can chip in with goals - seems a lifetime ago we had JT, Gallas and Ivan doing that.

Would also be nice to have a player who could threaten more from a free-kick around the edge of the box (like Zola used to). I know we have Alonso and Willian has the odd decent effort but watching Wilson for Bournemouth and Ward-Prowse for Southampton - players like this seem to trouble the keeper more often than not. Surely we could produce ONE players who could take decent free-kicks and corners FFS?!

 

 

Edited December 1, 20196 yr by Nibs

5 minutes ago, Nibs said:

I was only thinking that watching MOTD.

Seeing others sides hit great corners that cause opponents trouble. WE look in trouble every time we concede a corner yet our own are really poor and rarely come to anything. Seeing VDV grab a brace yesterday - how we are missing a defender who can cip in with goals - seems a lifetime ago we had JT, Gallas and Ivan doing that.

Would also be nice to have a player who could threaten more from a free-kick around the edge of the box (like Zola used to). I know we have Alonso and Willian has the odd decent effort but watching Wilson for Bournemouth and Ward-Prowse for Southampton - players like this seem to trouble the keeper more often than not. Surely we could produce ONE players who could take decent free-kicks and corners FFS?!

 

 

Yeah dead ball goals all over the place the weekend, bar the Bridge. Hitting a dead ball is the part of the game you can practice alone and nail down a decent technique, no excuses for mediocrity, you have to beat the first man at corners and give your players the chance to compete for the header, you have to hit the target from a close range free kick, if you're doing those things on a regular basis, more often than not the goals will come.

37 minutes ago, coco said:

As a forum we could all chip in and get him some therapy 

Leave off, 99% of people won’t even chip in to keep the forum running 

4 hours ago, Valerie said:

It's a big leap to label a few bad or baddish matches from an overall young team that probably have been a tad overperforming as "not wanting to play for their manager". I'd say a dip in performance was bound to happen, plus West Ham have more players with wiley EPL experience. If anything, our senior players should have pulled up the youngsters by their ears and kick them into working their socks off. And perhaps Lampard should have been more forceful in his halftime talk (admittedly not knowing anything about what he did say).

At least now we know we do need some new signings, preferably with a few years' experience at the highest level.

Thank you Val for a sensible and well thought out reply. 

The senior players are exactly the ones I was talking about, they pulled the level of the younger players down dramatically. Bar Kepa that is.

Jorginho and Kovacic, who by in large have been superb, could not complete a simple pass. Pedro tried for maybe 10 minutes and then hid, Giroud and him should have been hungry but not only was the quality missing so was the attitude. They did not fight. Willian came on and was like we still had Pedro on, we just noticed him for awful corners and crosses.

In a derby game, after a hard European trip, you need those senior pros to lead, to encourage, to inspire. Just like Frank himself did many, many times for us. Our players did none of those things. All different degrees of woeful and they pulled the quality, belief and even effort down of everyone around them.

They did not reflect the attitude of Frank at all in this game. He deserved better from them. Especially those who supposedly have been dying for a chance and got it against a woeful team.

4 hours ago, Slojo said:

Were you saying this before the match? Easy to say in hindsight but I didn't see many people saying Frank got the team selection wrong before kickoff. 

I actually agreed with the team selection bar Giroud over Michy, but I had no idea in the world how bad Giroud would be, or Pedro. The problem in the game was a lack of striker, it was glaring to see, it's not Franks fault he doesn't have a good backup striker. 

Of course I was not because I have not seen that at all this season in any game before. 

Nor was I having a dig at Frank. I agreed with his team selection. It made sense. How could Frank know Pedro and Giroud, who have been "desperate for minutes" would play with such little effort. Even if they are for sure going surely they would want to shop themselves around to potential employers?

How could he know his other senior reliable pros would play like strangers?

I am sure he reflected passion with calmness at half time but the team goes out and tries even less in the second half. The players let him down, the senior players more so as a higher level of performance and consistency is expected from them.

2 hours ago, coco said:

Away from home were fine, the opposition come out to play, and we find the spaces. But at home we have to play teams who get everyone behind the ball, stay compressed and concentrate on defending, then we struggle to open up teams and leave ourselves vulnerable, when the opposition wins ball we don't have all the players behind the ball.

For me the home problem can be overcome with improving our dead ball game. At the moment we have virtually zero threat coming from dead balls (bar pens). Corners we may as well take from the centre circle, then you have dangerous free kicks, again we just don't seem to have a threat, its all a bit comfortable for the opposition. 

 

Look at that lineup yesterday... Giroud and Zouma... Two guys 6ft or over.... This team has too many players not good in the air of carrying physical presence... 

Who's there to attack the deliveries...?

Tomori is a small centre half... Emerson and James? Kovacic, Jorginho, Kante? Mount? Willian? Pedro? Pulisic? Hudson Odoi? You could probably count on one hand the number of headed goals that lot have scored.

 

One thing that Alonso has is a goal threat, in open play or on set peices... Funny thing to say considering he's so poor at defending and we all want him out of the side but it's games like these that Alonso has a habit of delivering in. He actually makes telling contributions in tight situations... 

Aaahhh. Can't be relying on an out of favour left back to come on and dig you out of trouble... 😛

7 minutes ago, GhostOfDembaBa said:

One thing that Alonso has is a goal threat, in open play or on set peices... Funny thing to say considering he's so poor at defending and we all want him out of the side but it's games like these that Alonso has a habit of delivering in. He actually makes telling contributions in tight situations... 

Aaahhh. Can't be relying on an out of favour left back to come on and dig you out of trouble... 😛

Well said.

Seems to me since Emerson and Pulisic came back into the team results have taken a hit. Maybe too harsh but just say what I see.

Edited December 1, 20196 yr by the special one

24 minutes ago, the special one said:

Well said.

Seems to me since Emerson and Pulisic came back into the team results have taken a hit. Maybe too harsh but just say what I see.

You haven't been a contestant on ITV's Catchphrase by any chance?!

3 minutes ago, the special one said:

Well said.

Maybe just me but it seems to me since Emerson and Pulisic came back into the team results have taken a hit. Maybe too harsh but just say what I see.

That's not really correct if you have in mind that Pulisic has been very involved in our goals and wins. Alonso could do a decent job to a certain point and then he fell apart, ever since Emerson was back we have been having a good winning streak that ended with the loss against Man City, now we have lost two games in a row but it's not due to these two players.

People wanted to see Giroud and were not happy with Michy, I kept saying that Michy is an important player for us when things go bad and yesterday proved that our bench is pretty mediocre and not really capable of doing much, this is why Michy is an important squad member, when plan A doesn't work he has been the plan B and if he isnt there as a backup there is nobody else that steps in.
Pedro looked like he can't play in this league anymore, Giroud had no effort at all...

This is why our overall form till this point in the season has been pretty much ideal considering the following:

1. Our squad is thin because of the transfer ban.
2. Our important and/or key players were injured for a while, or still are injured (Rudiger,Kante,RLC,CHO,Emerson).

Pulisic has 5 goals in 2 assists in the league and 1 goal in CL. Emerson has been a decent defensive player, something that we really need, scoring goals so far wasn't a problem.
 

2 hours ago, Gentian said:

Hindsight is great though isn't it. In the Valencia game everyone was saying if only Lampard played Giroud to get in the end of crosses from James. Michy hasn't been that good either so playing Giroud a French first team player wasn't a bad idea. 

I was one of those, but after watching Giroud play yesterday that's my mind made up, he's not Chelsea material anymore. I figured Giroud would at least be of use to us in some games but he's not useful anymore, he was god awful last game, completely invisible. At least with Michy he'll try to get the ball. 

 

6 minutes ago, Slojo said:

I was one of those, but after watching Giroud play yesterday that's my mind made up, he's not Chelsea material anymore. I figured Giroud would at least be of use to us in some games but he's not useful anymore, he was god awful last game, completely invisible. At least with Michy he'll try to get the ball. 

 

Same for me. I had this mental image Giroud would pull away 2 defenders and create the space for Pulisic or Mount. I don't want to shout 'Get rid' as long as we don't have a better backup/rotational striker (I'm not a Bats fan), but his Chelsea days are probably over come this summer.

12 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

That's not really correct if you have in mind that Pulisic has been very involved in our goals and wins. Alonso could do a decent job to a certain point and then he fell apart, ever since Emerson was back we have been having a good winning streak that ended with the loss against Man City, now we have lost two games in a row but it's not due to these two players.

People wanted to see Giroud and were not happy with Michy, I kept saying that Michy is an important player for us when things go bad and yesterday proved that our bench is pretty mediocre and not really capable of doing much, this is why Michy is an important squad member, when plan A doesn't work he has been the plan B and if he isnt there as a backup there is nobody else that steps in.
Pedro looked like he can't play in this league anymore, Giroud had no effort at all...

This is why our overall form till this point in the season has been pretty much ideal considering the following:

1. Our squad is thin because of the transfer ban.
2. Our important and/or key players were injured for a while, or still are injured (Rudiger,Kante,RLC,CHO,Emerson).

Pulisic has 5 goals in 2 assists in the league and 1 goal in CL. Emerson has been a decent defensive player, something that we really need, scoring goals so far wasn't a problem.
 

Can't argue against Pulisic's stats and my point wasn't meant to be a slight on him - to me we just looked a much more cohesive unit when Mount was playing at LW? Individual player stats mean nothing to me if the team isn't winning.

Edited December 1, 20196 yr by the special one

1 hour ago, Nibs said:

That is so wide of the mark it is laughable.

I certainly respect your opinion Nibs so will take it on board. Maybe I was too harsh in my words.

I love the mindset of Chris Wilder. When complimented on his teams work rate he states "that is the bare minimum expected".

I feel Frank deserves that from our players and when they don't deliver it, it is a slight on him. He is a Chelsea legend, he deserves every player out there pulling up trees for him week in week out, every game. He was short changed badly yesterday imo.

22 minutes ago, Slojo said:

I was one of those, but after watching Giroud play yesterday that's my mind made up, he's not Chelsea material anymore. I figured Giroud would at least be of use to us in some games but he's not useful anymore, he was god awful last game, completely invisible. At least with Michy he'll try to get the ball. 

 

I was too. If Giroud is done then we need to dig in to the academy. Because Batman is useless outside of the box 99 times out of 100. They both clearly need to leave.

7 minutes ago, the special one said:

Can't argue against Pulisic's stats and my point wasn't meant to be a slight on him - to me we just looked a much more cohesive unit when Mount was playing at LW? Individual player stats mean nothing to me if the team isn't winning.

It's a good question, honestly I think we benefit a lot when Mount is playing, in comparison to the 3 midfielders stacked together more deep, but I'm not sure if Mount is the most effective in the middle or  when playing more wide, maybe he does look more dangerous playing as a winger and cutting inside like you say. That is interesting and it only further puts our tactic in question, maybe Pulisic could play in the middle and Mount as LW? Not clear what is our strongest lineup, I agree that stats mean nothing is the player isn't winning us games.

Also a new problem that I see is coming soon is the role of Jorginho in the squad, he was doing very well ever since he came here, totally the best passer in the league, but now his role has diminished and after the international break he's not completing 90' min in any game anymore. Frank subs him off now and it doesn't look like it's working either way. 

Anyone know our best academy strikers?

31 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

I certainly respect your opinion Nibs so will take it on board. Maybe I was too harsh in my words.

I love the mindset of Chris Wilder. When complimented on his teams work rate he states "that is the bare minimum expected".

I feel Frank deserves that from our players and when they don't deliver it, it is a slight on him. He is a Chelsea legend, he deserves every player out there pulling up trees for him week in week out, every game. He was short changed badly yesterday imo.

I totally agree - we were poor yesterday and the players HAVE to do better. And you were right - we should be expecting more of the senior pro's in games like yesterday.

It was only your use of the term "not playing for the Manager" I thought was wrong. That's a term that gets used too often IMO along with "the players have downed tools". It does happen, but I think yesterday was just a case of players off form and some who you have to say are no longer good enough.

3 minutes ago, Nibs said:

I totally agree - we were poor yesterday and the players HAVE to do better. And you were right - we should be expecting more of the senior pro's in games like yesterday.

It was only your use of the term "not playing for the Manager" I thought was wrong. That's a term that gets used too often IMO along with "the players have downed tools". It does happen, but I think yesterday was just a case of players off form and some who you have to say are no longer good enough.

Fair points. They were not accurate and more spoken of a fear that Frank could potential be faced with that same reaction from the players down the road as previous managers did, and I dont want him to be treated that way. He is still learning the job, and will make mistakes. We need to accept that, especially the players and run through brick walls for him. They did not do that yesterday and while quality can be an issue effort never should be.

31 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Anyone know our best academy strikers?

Has it been confirmed our appeal for the January window ban has been turned down? The idea we're going to draft in another 18-year old is lovely in the spirit to play the youngsters, but we can overdo it. Not that I can suggest an experienced striker willing to alternate with Abraham, mind you. In January.

No, no verdict yet. I was more thinking for Villa if Tammy is not fit. Cause false 9 is almost as bad as playing with Giroud or batman. So was hoping a young gem could cover till Tammy could play.

38 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Anyone know our best academy strikers?

Ike Ugbo is on loan, and the only other forward players listed on the club web site are Charlie Brown, George Nunn and Armando Broja.  No idea what any of them are like, but I highly doubt any of them are remotely close to representing our first team.

1 hour ago, Slojo said:

I was one of those, but after watching Giroud play yesterday that's my mind made up, he's not Chelsea material anymore. I figured Giroud would at least be of use to us in some games but he's not useful anymore, he was god awful last game, completely invisible. At least with Michy he'll try to get the ball. 

I was also one who said Giroud should have played and after yesterday I can admit Frank probably got it right putting Michy on instead! 

Giroud should have been out there with a point to prove but instead looked weighed down by a massive chip on his shoulder instead. Will probably be off in January. 
 

43 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Anyone know our best academy strikers?

There’s this Tammy bloke I’ve heard about 

7 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Ike Ugbo is on loan, and the only other forward players listed on the club web site are Charlie Brown, George Nunn and Armando Broja.  No idea what any of them are like, but I highly doubt any of them are remotely close to representing our first team.

Are they better than what Giroud did yesterday or Batman does?  Desperate times are better than a false 9.

 

5 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

 

 

There’s this Tammy bloke I’ve heard about 

Good one Munk, I should have said excluding Tammy 😛

Edited December 1, 20196 yr by axman2526

11 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Ike Ugbo is on loan, and the only other forward players listed on the club web site are Charlie Brown, George Nunn and Armando Broja.  No idea what any of them are like, but I highly doubt any of them are remotely close to representing our first team.

Oooohh, someone called Armando Broja is bound to be brilliant! Slap a squad number on him and send him on!