21 hours ago, Munkworth said:

Willian dined out on working hard his entire Chelsea career. 

I was being sarcastic. 

I am pretty sure Willian last year scored more than Werner this season. Yes freaking Willian whose main job in Chelsea for years was to bring ball forward and kept it there. 

 

 

Its like we are suggesting Werner might become a prolific Goal scorer,  95 in 159  for RBL, remember why we actually signed him, it wasn't for his assists, he actually is a brilliant striker, just lost the map atm.....

3 hours ago, _Ilya_ said:

Just a couple of banal points.

Assist =/= Goal
Sometimes one is the greater/harder part, sometimes the other - but, imo, on average, the actual scoring is the bigger deal. For every genius defense-splitting pass that left the striker with  a tap-in - there are two goals where the last pass was a nothing and left the striker with all the work to do. (I picked this proportion out of thin air, so happy to be convinced I am wrong 🙂 )

Also, the ranking would look very different if they did contributions per game. I know the overall impact over season matters as well, but e.g. Drogba's 24/26 is way more impressive than Werners 26/50.

And finally, I don't think a lot of people are saying Werner has been useless. I think the point being made more often is that he is not doing the center forward's job of scoring goals and we need somebody who will. (Cue discussion about systems, Firmino, false 9s and all that) 

My  point being is that I am not sure it's true that fans don't see the bigger picture. Sometimes it's the metrics that are misleading and the intuitive perception is the better reflection of the bigger picture.

I have argued that there's no point to compare Werner to some of our best strikers, his overall contribution doesn't help his case when you see it in detail so I can openly say that I'm sure that our board would never ever, ever consider buying him if he had 6 goals in Bundesliga last season. 

He was clearly bought to score goals for us and he hasn't done it enough, as soon as you look closer at his stats you see that he has 12 goals in 50 appearances in total only because he scored against some of the worst teams we could play: Morecambre, Sheffield, Burnley, Newcastle, Krasnodar. All low end teams so he scored over 40% of his goals against some of the weakest opposition that our team has played this season, he scored 3 goals since Tuchel took over that's 3 goals in 5 months and the last one against Real Madrid was from a millimeter distance.

He has the most assists so that's a positive but not good enough overall when you consider the full picture and compare him with the rest of the squad;
Only 1 outfield player played more minutes than him (Mount),
Timo has the same amount of shots taken as Mount(76),
has taken the most shots on target (31),
has most big chances missed (18),
most times been in offside (27),
Tammy has more goals+assists per90' so this "overall contribution" doesn't really show much...
 

Morata had twice as higher goal-efficiency than him in the PL but I have never seen anyone comparing Morata to some of our best strikers and their first season so there is no chance that Werner is comparable to the likes of D.Costa and so on. Probably only Jorginho is happy with Werner because he won many penalties, imagine buying a striker that scored over 30 goals last season just so that your penalty taker gets to rack up some end product 

There is no question that he must improve next season, then if he does by all means let's start comparing him but right now it makes no sense, he himself openly said it in post match interview that this season is the most unluckiest one that he has ever had so he's still down to earth knowing the reality, sad that some of our fans are so far from it.

56 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

I was being sarcastic. 

I’m aware. 

Dunno, from my point of view they all have to step up their game if you really want to challenge for the title. Mount, as great as he's playing already, too btw. Pulisic, Havertz, Ziyech...CHO. Did I forget someone? Yes, Werner of course too. But his past shows that he can score goals (and is far from a one-year wonder as well) so if he can up his game, and I see little reason to believe why he shouldn't be able to do that, and say converse 1/3 of his big misses he'd be almost undroppable especially whe you take into account for all the pens he got (+those that he should have gotten). Many of those offside situations were damn close as well.

Besides, you don't buy a striker that performs great in one particular system and expect him to deliver the same kind of numbers in a different formation unless you have a super specific plan figured out. Doubt that was the case at all tbh. The other thing is, you can't seriously judge him only by his score sheet. That obviously doesn't show the full picture as he's still played and played and played game after game. Most of them we are winning now under Tuchel or at least not lost. What about his impact on our defensive play? How many sprints does he take to press the opponent? How many sprints is he doing to create space for others? I see him doing quite some nice passing as well too (not his forte still).

I also don't think it was a particular bonus for him to get that many minutes either - especially . Tuchel himself admitted he had to play him too ofter at times.

 

Really glad he got to play in front of a super supportive crowd finally, with a good game too. I guess that'll help him way more than only being able to check out the latest memes about his missed shots on social media (or over here..).

As far as I'm concerned as long as he continues to contribute to the team whilst we're winning and keeps trying when we're losing he's a good player.  It's often overstated on here that he scored 95 goals for RBL, not so often is it  mentioned that he had 40 assists for them as well. So that is a combined goal output of 135 in 159 games.  

He's not a number 9 he's an inverted winger best described as a LF (Left Fwd) his assists are just as important to his game as his goals. Playing him through the middle is as mentioned before like playing Hazard, Salah, Neymar, Sanchez, Bale, Mane, Sterling and so many others there. They can do a good job there but, are so much better on the left/right with freedom to play their specific game.

Edited May 20, 20215 yr by LongtimerLurker

I actually really like him and he is crucial to the way we play. He's young and hungry and has got a great attitude. Plenty of time to sharpen up. I'm not going to judge him on his wastefulness because equally you can judge him and other former players in their work rate and attitude. He's got a future here with us and a long one I hope. Just needs to be more clinical and he could be deadly. 

 

12 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

inverted winger best described as a LF (Left Fwd) his assists are just as important to his game as his goals. Playing him through the middle is as mentioned before like playing Hazard, Salah, Neymar, Sanchez, Bale, Mane, Sterling and so many others there. They can do a good job there but, are so much better on the left/right with freedom to play their specific game.

He isn't an inverted winger. The closest comparison to Werner is Jamie Vardy. 

 

9 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

 

He isn't an inverted winger. The closest comparison to Werner is Jamie Vardy. 

 

Not really Jamie is still a number 9 whereas Timo is a forward which is an umbrella term nowadays for dynamic attackers.

21 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

 

He isn't an inverted winger. The closest comparison to Werner is Jamie Vardy. 

 

Except for the fact that Vardy could lead the attack while Werner would ideally need another striker next to him in a 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 formation but if are to play that formation then someone from the midfield would need to be dropped from Kovacic/Jorginho/Mount/Kante.

This written in the Guardian summed up how I felt about Werner the other night, and generally.

Quote

With around 25 minutes to go at Stamford Bridge, Timo Werner’s luck finally turned. Mateo Kovacic slid a pass into the left channel, whereupon Werner gathered the ball in his gangly, maladroit stride and began the lengthy, protracted process of bringing it under control.

Somewhere amid the tangle of legs and leather, a tackle was attempted by Wesley Fofana. Why Fofana did this remains a puzzling matter, given that on recent experience the most effective way of winning the ball from Werner is simply to let him tackle himself. Still, it was a moment of well-deserved fortune for Chelsea’s ill-starred striker, albeit one largely generated by his own elephantine clumsiness.

7 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Except for the fact that Vardy could lead the attack while Werner would ideally need another striker next to him in a 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 formation but if are to play that formation then someone from the midfield would need to be dropped from Kovacic/Jorginho/Mount/Kante.

You can't imagine playing with a front three of say Werner - Haaland - Mount in our current system? Or even more versatile and probably TTs wet dream: Werner - Kane - Mount? I think the combo of Werner - Havertz - Mount showed already good promise.

Of course Werner could just as well be replaced by Pulisic for example but since I guess we all agree that Werner would profit a lot playing alongside a "true" frontal or central striker who in this case would also score loads of goals (unlike in Leipzig btw.) I guess he'd be even less cramped when facing the goalie and his scoresheet and our results could benefit tremendously.

6 minutes ago, weetee said:

You can't imagine playing with a front three of say Werner - Haaland - Mount in our current system? Or even more versatile and probably TTs wet dream: Werner - Kane - Mount? I think the combo of Werner - Havertz - Mount showed already good promise.

Of course Werner could just as well be replaced by Pulisic for example but since I guess we all agree that Werner would profit a lot playing alongside a "true" frontal or central striker who in this case would also score loads of goals (unlike in Leipzig btw.) I guess he'd be even less cramped when facing the goalie and his scoresheet and our results could benefit tremendously.

In the current system we can go a bit aggressive with Werner getting his striker partner in Havertz:

         Werner Havertz

Pulisic Mount Kante James

             Jorginho

Rudiger T.Silva Azpilicueta

Basically a similar thing to what we're already playing but the difference is you're really pressing more and have a more attacking oriented Pulisic and Werner to either run at the opposition or to get a cross from James, Kante's and Mount's energy would be enough to keep the pressure going.

If we want to go greedy next season I can imagine this:

     Werner - Havertz 

Pulisic - Mount - Sancho 

             Ndidi

This is similar to how at times Leipzig played last season, looks unbalanced but given how Ndidi can foul multiple times without getting a yellow card and how Sancho and Pulisic would need 2 players to mark them... It could work.

 

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

In the current system we can go a bit aggressive with Werner getting his striker partner in Havertz:

         Werner Havertz

Pulisic Mount Kante James

             Jorginho

Rudiger T.Silva Azpilicueta

Basically a similar thing to what we're already playing but the difference is you're really pressing more and have a more attacking oriented Pulisic and Werner to either run at the opposition or to get a cross from James, Kante's and Mount's energy would be enough to keep the pressure going.

If we want to go greedy next season I can imagine this:

     Werner - Havertz 

Pulisic - Mount - Sancho 

             Ndidi

This is similar to how at times Leipzig played last season, looks unbalanced but given how Ndidi can foul multiple times without getting a yellow card and how Sancho and Pulisic would need 2 players to mark them... It could work.

 

Nah, I meant whether you can't see Werner (=whole team) profiting already tremendously if we wouldn't change a single thing except say play Haaland instead of Havertz and let e.g. Werner+Mount play at the sides (switching every now and then). Same with Kane just that Kane could mean that those three up front could rotate even more freely since he can play deeper just as well.

 

Can't see the latter formation working at all though. Well at Fifa it'd be killer I guess. Also, Ndidi doesn't play for Chelsea - you're sure he wouldn't pick up cards left and right all of a sudden if he did, playing the same way he does now? Maybe - big one though - if you switch Kanté with Mount (who could play instead of Pulisic or Sancho)..also that would put huge question marks over Kova and Joginho IMO..but that I actually would like to see some time.

4 minutes ago, weetee said:

Nah, I meant whether you can't see Werner (=whole team) profiting already tremendously if we wouldn't change a single thing except say play Haaland instead of Havertz and let e.g. Werner+Mount play at the sides (switching every now and then). Same with Kane just that Kane could mean that those three up front could rotate even more freely since he can play deeper just as well.

 

Can't see the latter formation working at all though. Well at Fifa it'd be killer I guess. Also, Ndidi doesn't play for Chelsea - you're sure he wouldn't pick up cards left and right all of a sudden if he did, playing the same way he does now? Maybe - big one though - if you switch Kanté with Mount (who could play instead of Pulisic or Sancho)..also that would put huge question marks over Kova and Joginho IMO..but that I actually would like to see some time.

I do think that the whole squad benefits if we sign Haaland. But at the same time it would mean that in the current formation that Werner and Pulisic would be rotating a bit more, Havertz would still be coming in from the bench so maybe best to change the formation, after all we're replacing our backup striker Giroud with a striker like Haaland that would want to play every game which is the same as Havertz, Werner and Pulisic.

I don't know, I think that we have an unbalanced squad so it's going to be interesting what the board does in the summer but given our players we should ideally focus on getting a better CB so that we can play a back 4 and then use an extra player in the midfield or in attack. I mean what are the odds that next season our attackers don't get better? Werner can't possibly have another season like this and Havertz, Mount and Pulisic should only improve as they get older now.

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

I do think that the whole squad benefits if we sign Haaland. But at the same time it would mean that in the current formation that Werner and Pulisic would be rotating a bit more, Havertz would still be coming in from the bench so maybe best to change the formation, after all we're replacing our backup striker Giroud with a striker like Haaland that would want to play every game which is the same as Havertz, Werner and Pulisic.

I don't know, I think that we have an unbalanced squad so it's going to be interesting what the board does in the summer but given our players we should ideally focus on getting a better CB so that we can play a back 4 and then use an extra player in the midfield or in attack. I mean what are the odds that next season our attackers don't get better? Werner can't possibly have another season like this and Havertz, Mount and Pulisic should only improve as they get older now.

That's a good point of course. And would have been much more of a probem already if it wasn't for covid-madness this season. Glad that Tuchel can and does rotate rather well in my opinion which is a neccessity nowadays and even twice with a quality squad like we have. That can work for a season - and only if that season is a successful one - but looking at City: not sure if Sterling wouldn't like to hand in a transfer request right after the final for example. The good thing about Havertz is though: he could very well play next to Haaland so we wouldn't be forced into a Tammy/Giroud situation as a given.

Second, I actually prefer Pulisic and Werner sharing one spot more often than not I think both actually profit from not playing every single consecutive game - Pulisic especially. Mount doesn't need to play THAT much either ideally. Haaland (or Kane for that matter, although I don't see him coming anyway) does pick up slight muscle injuries already every now and then so being able to rotate those players and manage their minutes without letting down the morale is eventually 30% of the work a top coach has to do nowadays. 

Agreed about the back four. Wasn't sure about James initially but am pretty convinced of him by now. Chilwell the same. The squad imho isn't really that badly balanced - plenty of options without needing any kind of major overhaul. If we'd be able to play a solid back4 our offensive output should considerably increase already without any Sancho/Haaland/MrX addition. Will be an interesting transfer window.

 

edited: lots of typos

Edited May 21, 20215 yr by weetee

3 hours ago, Snedger said:

This written in the Guardian summed up how I felt about Werner the other night, and generally.

I read that too and liked it. Jonathan Liew is great

14 hours ago, weetee said:

You can't imagine playing with a front three of say Werner - Haaland - Mount in our current system? Or even more versatile and probably TTs wet dream: Werner - Kane - Mount? I think the combo of Werner - Havertz - Mount showed already good promise.

Of course Werner could just as well be replaced by Pulisic for example but since I guess we all agree that Werner would profit a lot playing alongside a "true" frontal or central striker who in this case would also score loads of goals (unlike in Leipzig btw.) I guess he'd be even less cramped when facing the goalie and his scoresheet and our results could benefit tremendously.

It is 

 

15 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Except for the fact that Vardy could lead the attack while Werner would ideally need another striker next to him in a 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 formation but if are to play that formation then someone from the midfield would need to be dropped from Kovacic/Jorginho/Mount/Kante.

Yea something like that. He is basically a st not a wide player. 

20 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Not really Jamie is still a number 9 whereas Timo is a forward which is an umbrella term nowadays for dynamic attackers.

What is the difference in their game that make you say that? 

5 hours ago, Bob stark said:

What is the difference in their game that make you say that? 

Jamie vardy is a goal poacher, Timo Werner has been asked to play the goal poacher role so far for Chelsea in this sense there is a big difference. 

Vardy is a striker but more importantly a 'centre forward' whereas Timo is a 'striker' but viewed by coaches as more of a forward in the ilk of other wide/inside attackers in this division.

 Remember that Timo had been Liverpool's primary target as competition for their front 3 not specifically their number 9 position. Jota was then the "cheaper" alternative but notice how he often plays all over the front 3 just like Timo has for us.

Quick comparison of Eden Hazard and Timo Werner when we play with 3 at the back. The three main positions they've played for us are on the left of a front 3, on the left in a front 2 and through the middle of a front 3.

Timo Werner is a more similar player to Eden than a Vardy or Costa for example. Yes he's not as good of a dribbler as Eden but that's not the point, Werner makes up for this with him being arguably faster than Eden was in his prime (Hazard was still very quick and this is debatable but Turbo Timo looks to be quicker).

The conclusion here is that Timo Werner is a goalscorer no doubt about it but he is not a 'traditional' striker by definition. Pulisic for example could be called a striker but you wouldn't necessarily call him a centre forward.

Football terminology has become quite vague nowadays especially when talking about formations and player positions as in the modern game this is constantly changing and adaptations are made. You wouldn't really call Timo a CF or a LW as he is a hybrid of both these positions. He is a player that likes to sit on the very last line of the defence and play alongside at least one other attacker who is more central to himself. 

Tactically what this allows for Timo is positional freedom to run the channels, and make runs diagonally from the left to the centre setting up the angles for his right foot.

This hasn't happened enough this season and often times he chooses to go near post when in the box either from the left or right. He also often goes down the line rather than cutting in, which I assume is a confidence thing.

But my point remains despite whether people want to believe it or not. It's no coincidence he has more assists this season that goals, because whilst he has struggled to reach his normal goal outlay he is still playmaking at his usual optimal (or slightly above rate) level. 10 assists for a forward player in a debut season is good in the prem especially when they often score more than 10 goals in all competitions to go alongside this. 

His playmaking skills have been sorely undervalued during this season and when he was signed. It was presumed he was only signed because he scores goals and if he can't do that then he's a flop. The fact he has slightly under half the amount of assists to goals ratio in all competitions for Leipzig suggests he is the full package forward that we have sought since Eden left.

No surprise to me he's the first player to score and assist over 10 times each in their debut season since Eden. This despite being his worst professional season according to himself.

So no Vardy and Timo are not similar players, if you want to be reductionist and claim because they are both fast and score goals they are then by all means make the comparison. If you want to talk about positional differences, playstyle and goal contributions then no they are not.

Vardy has become less selfish as he has matured as a player but he is definitely not an inside fwd who looks to assist nearly half as much as he score goals. The key phrase for Timo is dynamic forward. He should finish this season with around 30 goal contributions. Next season I will predict 40.

 

Edited May 22, 20215 yr by LongtimerLurker

6 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Jamie vardy is a goal poacher, Timo Werner has been asked to play the goal poacher role so far for Chelsea in this sense there is a big difference. 

Vardy is a striker but more importantly a 'center forward' whereas Timo is a 'striker' but viewed by coaches as more of a forward in the ilk of other wide/inside attackers in this division.

 Remember that Timo had been Liverpool's primary target as competition for their front 3 not specifically their number 9 position. Jota was then the "cheaper" alternative but notice how he often plays all over the front 3 just like Timo has for us.

Quick comparison of Eden Hazard and Timo Werner when we play with 3 at the back. The three main positions they've played for us are on the left of a front 3, on the left in a front 2 and through the middle of a front 3.

Timo Werner is a more similar player to Eden than a Vardy or Costa for example. Yes he's not as good of a dribbler as Eden but that's not the point, Werner makes up for this with him being arguably faster than Eden was in his prime (Hazard was still very quick and this is debatable but Turbo Timo looks to be quicker).

The conclusion here is that Timo Werner is a goalscorer no doubt about it but he is not a 'traditional' striker by definition. Pulisic for example could be called a striker but you wouldn't necessarily call him a center forward.

Football terminology has become quite vague nowadays especially when talking about formations and player positions as in the modern game this is constantly changing and adaptations are made. You wouldn't really call Timo a CF or a LW as he is a hybrid of both these positions. He is a player that likes to sit on the very last line of the defence and play alongside at least one other attacker who is more centeral to himself. 

Tactically what this allows for Timo is positional freedom to run the channels, and make runs diagonally from the left to the middle setting up the angles for his right foot. This hasn't happened enough this season and often times he chooses to go near post when in the box either from the left or right. He also often goes down the line rather than cutting in, which I assume is a confidence thing.

But my point remains despite whether people want to believe it or not. It's no coincidence he has more assists this season that goals, because whilst he has struggled to reach his normal goal outlay he is still playmaking at his usual optimal (or slightly above rate) level. 10 assists for a forward player in a debut season is good in the prem especially when they often score more than 10 goals in all competitions to go alongside this. 

His playmaking skills have been sorely undervalued during this season and when he was signed. It was presumed he was only signed because he scores goals and if he can't do that then he's a flop. The fact he has slightly under half the amount of assists to goals ratio in all competitions for Leipzig suggests he is the full package forward we have sought since Eden left.

No surprise to me he's the first player to score and assist over 10 times each in their debut season since Eden. This despite being his worst professional season according to himself.

So no Vardy and Timo are not similar players, if you want to be reductionist and claim because they are both fast and score goals they are then by all means make the comparison. If you want to talk about positional differences, playstyle and goal contributions then no they are not.

Vardy has become less selfish as he has matured as a player but he is definitely not an inside fwd who looks to assist nearly half as much as he score goals. The key phrase for Timo is dynamic forward. He should finish this season with around 30 goal contributions. Next season I will predict 40.

 

You basically say the difference between vardy and Werner is just their label. You label vardy as st and Werner as forward. That is not saying anything. 

You said werner love to run the channel, vardy love to run the channels. Werner is not a good dribbler, Vardy isn't a good dribbler. Werner has 6g + 8a, vardy has 13g-9a. Btw Jamie Vardy is 34

1 hour ago, Bob stark said:

You basically say the difference between vardy and Werner is just their label. You label vardy as st and Werner as forward. That is not saying anything. 

You said werner love to run the channel, vardy love to run the channels. Werner is not a good dribbler, Vardy isn't a good dribbler. Werner has 6g + 8a, vardy has 13g-9a. Btw Jamie Vardy is 34

If your going to compare Werner vs Vardy, lets not be selective in the stats we choose to quote.

Werner has contributed to a combined 27 goals (12 goals, 15 assists) over 3675 minutes this season, in all competitions. A goal contribution (goal or assist) every 136 mins of football

Vardy has contributed to a combined 24 goals (15 goals, 9 assists) over 3331 minutes this season, in all competitions. A contribution (goal or assist) every 139 minutes of football.

Timo therefore has a slightly better Goal contribution per minutes record that Vardy, and has achieved this despite it being his first season in the EPL, having moved to a new country for the first time, during a pandemic.

He has also achieved this whilst playing at a higher standard in Europe (Champions league vs Europa), scoring a key goal in the Champions league semi final.  He also played a key part in the goal that took Chelsea above Leicester last week, in a game during which Vardy was anonymous.

So, by all means, compare Vardy to Werner - but lets not kid ourselves that Vardy has been considerably more effective this season. It simply isn't true.

Edited May 22, 20215 yr by nonotnowjim

3 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

If your going to compare Werner vs Vardy, lets not be selective in the stats we choose to quote.

Werner has contributed to a combined 27 goals (12 goals, 15 assists) over 3675 minutes this season, in all competitions. A goal contribution (goal or assist) every 136 mins of football

Vardy has contributed to a combined 24 goals (15 goals, 9 assists) over 3331 minutes this season, in all competitions. A contribution (goal or assist) every 139 minutes of football.

Timo therefore has a slightly better Goal contribution per minutes record that Vardy, and has achieved this despite it being his first season in the EPL, having moved to a new country for the first time, during a pandemic.

He has also achieved this whilst playing at a higher standard in Europe (Champions league vs Europa), scoring a key goal in the Champions league semi final.  He also played a key part in the goal that took Chelsea above Leicester last week, in a game during which Vardy was anonymous.

So, by all means, compare Vardy to Werner - but lets not kid ourselves that Vardy has been considerably more effective this season. It simply isn't true.

I wasn't being selective, I used pl stats only. They are usually the best way to compare stats because you play the same opp. 

You mentioned jamie vardy is a poacher, and timo is a dynamic forward who provide assist yet Jamie vardy has more assist than timo in pl. That is my point with that stats. 

Edited May 22, 20215 yr by Bob stark

1 hour ago, Bob stark said:

I wasn't being selective, I used pl stats only. They are usually the best way to compare stats because you play the same opp. 

You mentioned jamie vardy is a poacher, and timo is a dynamic forward who provide assist yet Jamie vardy has more assist than timo in pl. That is my point with that stats. 

I didn't mention Vardy is a poacher - I hadn't talked about him at any point prior to that last message. 

40 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

I didn't mention Vardy is a poacher - I hadn't talked about him at any point prior to that last message. 

Bob Stark has confused you with Longtimelurker and I don't blame him 😂