7 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Jamie vardy is a goal poacher, Timo Werner has been asked to play the goal poacher role so far for Chelsea in this sense there is a big difference. 

Vardy is a striker but more importantly a 'centre forward' whereas Timo is a 'striker' but viewed by coaches as more of a forward in the ilk of other wide/inside attackers in this division.

 Remember that Timo had been Liverpool's primary target as competition for their front 3 not specifically their number 9 position. Jota was then the "cheaper" alternative but notice how he often plays all over the front 3 just like Timo has for us.

Quick comparison of Eden Hazard and Timo Werner when we play with 3 at the back. The three main positions they've played for us are on the left of a front 3, on the left in a front 2 and through the middle of a front 3.

Timo Werner is a more similar player to Eden than a Vardy or Costa for example. Yes he's not as good of a dribbler as Eden but that's not the point, Werner makes up for this with him being arguably faster than Eden was in his prime (Hazard was still very quick and this is debatable but Turbo Timo looks to be quicker).

The conclusion here is that Timo Werner is a goalscorer no doubt about it but he is not a 'traditional' striker by definition. Pulisic for example could be called a striker but you wouldn't necessarily call him a centre forward.

Football terminology has become quite vague nowadays especially when talking about formations and player positions as in the modern game this is constantly changing and adaptations are made. You wouldn't really call Timo a CF or a LW as he is a hybrid of both these positions. He is a player that likes to sit on the very last line of the defence and play alongside at least one other attacker who is more central to himself. 

Tactically what this allows for Timo is positional freedom to run the channels, and make runs diagonally from the left to the centre setting up the angles for his right foot.

This hasn't happened enough this season and often times he chooses to go near post when in the box either from the left or right. He also often goes down the line rather than cutting in, which I assume is a confidence thing.

But my point remains despite whether people want to believe it or not. It's no coincidence he has more assists this season that goals, because whilst he has struggled to reach his normal goal outlay he is still playmaking at his usual optimal (or slightly above rate) level. 10 assists for a forward player in a debut season is good in the prem especially when they often score more than 10 goals in all competitions to go alongside this. 

His playmaking skills have been sorely undervalued during this season and when he was signed. It was presumed he was only signed because he scores goals and if he can't do that then he's a flop. The fact he has slightly under half the amount of assists to goals ratio in all competitions for Leipzig suggests he is the full package forward that we have sought since Eden left.

No surprise to me he's the first player to score and assist over 10 times each in their debut season since Eden. This despite being his worst professional season according to himself.

So no Vardy and Timo are not similar players, if you want to be reductionist and claim because they are both fast and score goals they are then by all means make the comparison. If you want to talk about positional differences, playstyle and goal contributions then no they are not.

Vardy has become less selfish as he has matured as a player but he is definitely not an inside fwd who looks to assist nearly half as much as he score goals. The key phrase for Timo is dynamic forward. He should finish this season with around 30 goal contributions. Next season I will predict 40.

 

You haven't answered the question at all. The question was about how their game/the way they play/the way they are asked to play is different. As Bob Stark said, you have only labelled them differently several times and presented that as the answer.

5 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

If your going to compare Werner vs Vardy, lets not be selective in the stats we choose to quote.

Werner has contributed to a combined 27 goals (12 goals, 15 assists) over 3675 minutes this season, in all competitions. A goal contribution (goal or assist) every 136 mins of football

Vardy has contributed to a combined 24 goals (15 goals, 9 assists) over 3331 minutes this season, in all competitions. A contribution (goal or assist) every 139 minutes of football.

Timo therefore has a slightly better Goal contribution per minutes record that Vardy, and has achieved this despite it being his first season in the EPL, having moved to a new country for the first time, during a pandemic.

He has also achieved this whilst playing at a higher standard in Europe (Champions league vs Europa), scoring a key goal in the Champions league semi final.  He also played a key part in the goal that took Chelsea above Leicester last week, in a game during which Vardy was anonymous.

So, by all means, compare Vardy to Werner - but lets not kid ourselves that Vardy has been considerably more effective this season. It simply isn't true.

The stats (you replied to) were presented not to establish that Vardy was better, just to show that their roles (in terms of execution at least) have been very similar.

8 hours ago, Bob stark said:

You basically say the difference between vardy and Werner is just their label. You label vardy as st and Werner as forward. That is not saying anything. 

You said werner love to run the channel, vardy love to run the channels. Werner is not a good dribbler, Vardy isn't a good dribbler. Werner has 6g + 8a, vardy has 13g-9a. Btw Jamie Vardy is 34

If you think Timo Werner is the same type of player as Jamie Vardy then you are simplifying Timo Werner as a player. It's not about the stats I've told you this before, you also chose to ignore the comparison to Eden for whatever reason.

I'm going to assume that as you think there is no difference between an ST and a FWD you don't understand the positional differences between these two so I will try to elaborate.

In football there are two main attackers (strikers) that play across the front line. You have your number 9s- the out and out centre forwards (your Lewandowskis, Benzemas etc and you also have forwards who play either alongside these types of strikers or depending on the system alone through the middle.

If you want to compare Timo to anyone the best example would be Mo Salah. In the modern game the terminology has made it difficult for some people to understand exactly what a player's role and position are in a team. Salah often referred to as a forward can also be described as a striker.

Now before he came to Liverpool most people would not necessarily associate this phrase (striker) with the type of player he is but under Klopp he became much more prolific. Does this mean he is a number 9? No he scores lots of goals but in a traditional sense he is not a number 9. Yet he is alongside Mane, Liverpool's primary goal scorer.

Nowadays aside from the odd few classic number 9s aforementioned and a handful other top strikers the type of players that score lots of goals a season are more often inside fwds or wide attackers. These are now referred to strikers unlike before due to the large amount of goals they score.

This wasn't always the case traditionally players that played on the wing were there to support the attack and played quite wide like in a traditional 442. With the popular change to a 433 the wide players became much more narrow and acted as auxiliary strikers.

My point being that the style of forward player has evolved in modern football. More and more players have started to fall into this category of being neither a traditional number 9 or traditional winger but somewhere in between.

Managers and coaches love these types of players as they are hybrids, you get the playmaking aspects of a winger with the finishing of a striker. These inside forwards are referred to as strikers but, what I'm trying to say is they are not merely strikers. To say that all they bring to a team is the to scoring of goals is false. Tactically it is much more.

From a tactical point of view why do you think Salah and Mane for example play on the wing rather than through the middle more often than not? It's their energy and pace that allows the team to defend from the front. The ability to press the opponent into mistakes in dangerous areas.

Also by having these players play on the wing it allows them to always be able to cut onto their dominant foot which opens the goal and the pitch up for them.

TLDR: Timo Werner like so many in his generation and the one before that is not just a 'striker' by virtue but a forward. In modern football a forward is not just a striker who scores goals and assists but also offeres much more to the team in terms of work rate on and off the ball. These hybrid players are the reason why false 9 formations have begun to see more play in the past 10 or so years. Who needs an old fashioned number 9 when you can play 3 dynamic forwards or a midfielder through the middle and two dynamic fwds either side. They offer systems greater flexibility as they themselves are flexible in the positions they play.

 

 

1 hour ago, ashwin said:

You haven't answered the question at all. The question was about how their game/the way they play/the way they are asked to play is different. As Bob Stark said, you have only labelled them differently several times and presented that as the answer.

Well that's because I've already explained this on this thread multiple times.

It's not merely a label though, I assumed people understand that there is a difference between an ST and LF. It's not just letters or a slightly different starting position we're talking about different job roles and responsibilities like in any other career setting. 

Let's talk facts Lampard played Werner up top in a 433 and a 4231, on the left and on the right in both those formations. Tuchel has played Timo on the left of a 343 and 352. Occasionally on the right in the 343 and through the middle as well. To you I assume this is not significant, what's the difference right? It's just playing on the left and right in a handful of different formations

What you and Bob are failing to recognise is that there is a difference in the 433 and 343. First of all the 343 is not a 343 it's a 3421 it's just easier to put 343. The 2 that play behind the striker are not LW and RW they are LF/LAM and RF/RAM. Why do these letters matter what is the significance you may ask.

It requires the player to occupy different zones on the pitch, it may sound stupid but this is very important to how a player like Timo performs.

In fact when Tuchel wants this team to play it's most dynamic football the formation more closely resembles a 3241. The wing backs are meant to provide the width and create overlaps with the inside fwds maximising space in the opposition's half. Timo like many other players that play in a similar system to him and are of a similar playing style are much more than the tagline 'striker'. As I mentioned to Bob by referring to him as one you simplify him as a player. So while calling a player a forward might seem like a label it actually covers a broad spectrum of players and their play style not to mention a position now prevalent not just in the modern game but at the very highest level.

Simply put yes he can play through the middle like Jamie Vardy but no he is not that similar in regards to playing style. Being quick and being able to score goals would be a category you could put most professional footballers in.

 

This talk about Werner being more than just a striker and Vardy being a goal poacher wouldn't be a topic at all if Timo hadn't missed so many chances this season in the first place. It really is just overemphasizing Werner's overall game and making it sound like he's such a modern player in comparison to Vardy but over the course of this season he has shown more than a few times that he can have a poor first touch, poor finishing and poor impact despite running a whole lot.

In the modern game you're not a top forward if you don't put up goals and specially not in the recent years where Messi and Ronaldo have been scoring 30 goals every season, now Lewandowski scored 40 this season for example. It's very debatable just how much flexible is Werner but he can be as flexible as you want, it won't matter if he doesn't improve his end product.

It's still up to him to prove that he can do it in the PL next season, if Werner is supposed to be the inside-forward and not your typical striker it's still the same requirements, what made Salah world class is that season when he scored 32 goals in the league, even if he never repeats that again she showed that he can do it and he has still been scoring around 20 goals per season regularly. 

We didn't buy Werner because of his tireless running or flexibility, he was bought because he scored over 30 goals last season, for the modern game his goals this season aren't good enough and he would have never been signed if he had a season like this last year in Bundesliga, end of.

Edited May 23, 20215 yr by Gol15

34 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

This talk about Werner being more than just a striker and Vardy being a goal poacher wouldn't be a topic at all if Timo hadn't missed so many chances this season in the first place. It really is just overemphasizing Werner's overall game and making it sound like he's such a modern player in comparison to Vardy but over the course of this season he has shown more than a few times that he can have a poor first touch, poor finishing and poor impact despite running a whole lot.

In the modern game you're not a top forward if you don't put up goals and specially not in the recent years where Messi and Ronaldo have been scoring 30 goals every season, now Lewandowski scored 40 this season for example. It's very debatable just how much flexible is Werner but he can be as flexible as you want, it won't matter if he doesn't improve his end product.

It's still up to him to prove that he can do it in the PL next season, if Werner is supposed to be the inside-forward and not your typical striker it's still the same requirements, what made Salah world class is that season when he scored 32 goals in the league, even if he never repeats that again she showed that he can do it and he has still been scoring around 20 goals per season regularly. 

We didn't buy Werner because of his tireless running or flexibility, he was bought because he scored over 30 goals last season, for the modern game his goals this season aren't good enough and he would have never been signed if he had a season like this last year in Bundesliga, end of.

💯

7 hours ago, ashwin said:

Bob Stark has confused you with Longtimelurker and I don't blame him 😂

😂😂😂😂

I really didn't notice 

5 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

If you think Timo Werner is the same type of player as Jamie Vardy then you are simplifying Timo Werner as a player. It's not about the stats I've told you this before, you also chose to ignore the comparison to Eden for whatever reason.

I'm going to assume that as you think there is no difference between an ST and a FWD you don't understand the positional differences between these two so I will try to elaborate.

In football there are two main attackers (strikers) that play across the front line. You have your number 9s- the out and out centre forwards (your Lewandowskis, Benzemas etc and you also have forwards who play either alongside these types of strikers or depending on the system alone through the middle.

If you want to compare Timo to anyone the best example would be Mo Salah. In the modern game the terminology has made it difficult for some people to understand exactly what a player's role and position are in a team. Salah often referred to as a forward can also be described as a striker.

Now before he came to Liverpool most people would not necessarily associate this phrase (striker) with the type of player he is but under Klopp he became much more prolific. Does this mean he is a number 9? No he scores lots of goals but in a traditional sense he is not a number 9. Yet he is alongside Mane, Liverpool's primary goal scorer.

Nowadays aside from the odd few classic number 9s aforementioned and a handful other top strikers the type of players that score lots of goals a season are more often inside fwds or wide attackers. These are now referred to strikers unlike before due to the large amount of goals they score.

This wasn't always the case traditionally players that played on the wing were there to support the attack and played quite wide like in a traditional 442. With the popular change to a 433 the wide players became much more narrow and acted as auxiliary strikers.

My point being that the style of forward player has evolved in modern football. More and more players have started to fall into this category of being neither a traditional number 9 or traditional winger but somewhere in between.

Managers and coaches love these types of players as they are hybrids, you get the playmaking aspects of a winger with the finishing of a striker. These inside forwards are referred to as strikers but, what I'm trying to say is they are not merely strikers. To say that all they bring to a team is the to scoring of goals is false. Tactically it is much more.

From a tactical point of view why do you think Salah and Mane for example play on the wing rather than through the middle more often than not? It's their energy and pace that allows the team to defend from the front. The ability to press the opponent into mistakes in dangerous areas.

Also by having these players play on the wing it allows them to always be able to cut onto their dominant foot which opens the goal and the pitch up for them.

TLDR: Timo Werner like so many in his generation and the one before that is not just a 'striker' by virtue but a forward. In modern football a forward is not just a striker who scores goals and assists but also offeres much more to the team in terms of work rate on and off the ball. These hybrid players are the reason why false 9 formations have begun to see more play in the past 10 or so years. Who needs an old fashioned number 9 when you can play 3 dynamic forwards or a midfielder through the middle and two dynamic fwds either side. They offer systems greater flexibility as they themselves are flexible in the positions they play.

 

 

Of course I am going to ignore your comparison to Hazard. It is like asking me to compare Lampard to Kovacic. 

Your answer is more about how modern attack works and how player position doesn't really define their role anymore because football is more dynamic this days. That is very good explanation. 

Back to original discussion which is vardy vs werner. My question is their skillset and attributes. What is the difference in their game that make you say they are very different? 

 

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Of course I am going to ignore your comparison to Hazard. It is like asking me to compare Lampard to Kovacic. 

Your answer is more about how modern attack works and how player position doesn't really define their role anymore because football is more dynamic this days. That is very good explanation. 

Back to original discussion which is vardy vs werner. My question is their skillset and attributes. What is the difference in their game that make you say they are very different? 

 

 

 

 

 

The difference is in the profile of the player, Timo is like so many other inside fwds that came before him in the prem (Sanchez, Hazard, Mane, Salah the list goes on). Jamie is a goal poacher tasked with finishing off moves more often than not. In recent years he has become less selfish but you wouldn't necessarily associate him with being a playmaker.

The reason I compare Eden and Timo is they occupy similar positions because they are tasked with the same job. Create and score. Vardy's job is pretty much finish off the teams attacking moves (which Timo can do also).

I can't really compare Jamie to too many players because he is quite unique as are most players. There are similarities between Timo and Jamie but I wouldn't call them similar players and thereby use one to compare to the other. B/c Timo plays slightly wider and is better with a reference point in attack like how Eden was. Jamie doesn't require anyone. Jamie and Timo are both better in counter attacking systems that's for sure. But one is a number 9 and the other is a hybrid of a winger and striker.

 

Surprised there is no discussion on Timo's performance yesterday. Thought him and Jorginho were woeful myself, and Pulisic not far behind.

His positioning and reactions when the ball was in the box, well he just did not look anything like a natural striker to me. Tuchel is copping flak for completely ignoring Abraham and I'd have to say that criticism is warranted when you see the no.9 he picks every week playing like that.

9 minutes ago, just said:

Surprised there is no discussion on Timo's performance yesterday. Thought him and Jorginho were woeful myself, and Pulisic not far behind.

His positioning and reactions when the ball was in the box, well he just did not look anything like a natural striker to me. Tuchel is copping flak for completely ignoring Abraham and I'd have to say that criticism is warranted when you see the no.9 he picks every week playing like that.

He works hard 

1 hour ago, Bob stark said:

He works hard 

...and runs fast. 

Has to improve next season, the number of times he fluffs his lines when in good positions is laughable for a top class forward. At least we don't have to worry about Germany in the Euro's if he is leading the line.

Edited May 24, 20215 yr by charierre

4 minutes ago, charierre said:

...and runs fast. 

Has to improve next season, the number of times he fluffs his lines when in good positions is laughable for a top class forward. At least we don't have to worry about Germany in the Euro's if he is leading the line.

Must be worth a fiver to be leading scorer in the Euros.

6 hours ago, just said:

Surprised there is no discussion on Timo's performance yesterday. Thought him and Jorginho were woeful myself, and Pulisic not far behind.

His positioning and reactions when the ball was in the box, well he just did not look anything like a natural striker to me. Tuchel is copping flak for completely ignoring Abraham and I'd have to say that criticism is warranted when you see the no.9 he picks every week playing like that.

No discussion as he does exactly what we have come to expect of him. So is like flogging a dead horse.

You have been mocked, scorned and laughed at Timo, by some on here including myself.

Put the season behind you and hurt City. It is your time to announce the real Timo Werner on the biggest stage. 

Like everyone else at the club you may never play this stage again. Make it count.

They've done it, the pressure is off. Go on now, score for fun next season!

28 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

They've done it, the pressure is off. Go on now, score for fun next season!

Look at the White VAR line in the photo. He's off-side again! Unbelievable!!

47 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

They've done it, the pressure is off. Go on now, score for fun next season!

Judging by the season and by that pic, Timo is absolutely toothless.

 

 

 

We love him anyway. 

Somehow he was horrible again tonight but it didnt matter! 😇

Absolutely 100% fundamental to goal scored,  his run pulls Dias miles out of place, creating the room for the pass, intelligent beautiful running..

He deserved 1/2 assist for the winning goal, took out both of their central defenders with that run. If only he could finish and staying onside at the same time. Having said that, got love his attitude and work rate.

4 hours ago, Ballack & Blu said:

Absolutely 100% fundamental to goal scored,  his run pulls Dias miles out of place, creating the room for the pass, intelligent beautiful running..

It's what world class strikers do to be remembered in Champions League finals BB. They win corners and run beautifully.

And he still missed 2 sitters!

9 hours ago, just said:

Look at the White VAR line in the photo. He's off-side again! Unbelievable!!

He even managed to miss the badge...