I reckon Timo will be a beast for us within a couple of seasons he's already surpassed my 25 combined goals and assists target for him this season. If he hits 30 I'll just stay quite and sip my tea while the haters try to tell me he's a flop. 

My favourite thing about last nights match was the crowd, it gave the players so much needed motivation. The way they chanted and cheered for most things Timo did, will do him the world of good regarding his confidence.

If we add up the amount of offside goals he scored this season (I'm sure it's quite high) through the summer he has to work on his positioning and hopefully he'll be a lethal counter attacking mastero sooner rather than later.

 

6 hours ago, Gol15 said:

He's been a key player for us for sure and I would be really happy to see him scoring in the CL final now.

But so far he has the most big chances missed, most shots taken and most times been in an offside position so this narrative about how he has been so amazing is just ignoring a lot of reality, anyone that really thinks that his first season is comparable and up there with the likes of D.Costa is deluded, that much is proven by now.

Not sure where the "amazing" narrative comes from - maybe confusing it with the Jorginho thread?  Also not sure why we need to compare him with Costa's 1st season?  But I'll be willing to bet his numbers next year will be favourable to Diego's 2nd season (16 goals/11assists).

If he ends up netting the winner vs Citeh, his 1st year numbers are right up there with the King himself.  Drogba had 16 goals/ 8 assists leading us to the prem title.  Werner is sitting on 12 goals/ 14 assists right now without mentioning winning that key penalty yesterday.

13 hours ago, Bob stark said:

He works hard 

Willian dined out on working hard his entire Chelsea career. 

13 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

Willian dined out on working hard his entire Chelsea career. 

Another good example of a Chelsea player whose hard work didn't go unnoticed.  Voted Chelsea POTY by his teammates in 2016.

46 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

Willian dined out on working hard his entire Chelsea career. 

And this is exactly where I see Werner fitting in. He has a career here and a really good one i feel. He does a lot well bit being the main man for goals simply is not it. 

He and we need a main striker and a capable backup TT trusts to allow Timo to play off that striker to the left, as he did well for Red Bull.

33 minutes ago, BluesPower said:

Another good example of a Chelsea player whose hard work didn't go unnoticed.  Voted Chelsea POTY by his teammates in 2016.

I feel like you have a bias towards Willian though... 

8 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

 

Which assist would that be? You do realise you don’t get an assist for winning a penalty right?

I thought his all round game was ok last night, the turn he had in the first half was brilliant. I reckon he is the worst finisher I’ve seen at the club, including Torres and Morata. I don’t think even those two would have managed to miss that ball with their head and then elbow it in. I did love his audacity to celebrate like it was a genuine goal though 😂. We got away with it and that’s the main thing!

If its good enough for an assist in EPL fantasy football then its good enough for me!

Official or otherwise, without Timo there is no penalty. Without the penalty, there is no goal. Without the goal, we are not 3rd.

Edit - I agree, awful finisher at the moment! Misses opportunities that are easier to score than miss. His celebrating the handball annoyed me! what a stupid thing to do, he MUST have known it would be ruled out!

Edited May 19, 20215 yr by nonotnowjim

7 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

I feel like you have a bias towards Willian though... 

If he ends up working as hard as Brazillian Willian, I'll be one proud papa

1 hour ago, BluesPower said:

Not sure where the "amazing" narrative comes from - maybe confusing it with the Jorginho thread?  Also not sure why we need to compare him with Costa's 1st season?  But I'll be willing to bet his numbers next year will be favourable to Diego's 2nd season (16 goals/11assists).

If he ends up netting the winner vs Citeh, his 1st year numbers are right up there with the King himself.  Drogba had 16 goals/ 8 assists leading us to the prem title.  Werner is sitting on 12 goals/ 14 assists right now without mentioning winning that key penalty yesterday.

Don't try and get in a reasonable debate with Gol on this. I have had him on ignore for a while due to his inability to understand nuance and context. He also has a tendency to just blatantly  make stuff up, as can be seen by the nonsense he is once again posting, saying that people are calling Timo amazing. It is simply pure bollocks!

Read through this thread and it is clear that nobody is saying Timo has been good enough, or "amazing" as Gol puts it.  It is very much the opposite, with pretty much everyone saying that Werner has NOT been good enough. 

However, what IS clear is that Timo's overall output in terms of goal contributions (goals/assists) this season is pretty good. Certainly when compared to the combined goals/assists of some of the very best strikers Chelsea have had, such as Costa and Drogba, Timos output is decent, and provides a decent foundation to build on. Simply put, without Timo's goals/assists we would be well out of the top 4.

 

Edited May 19, 20215 yr by nonotnowjim

8 hours ago, Gol15 said:

He's been a key player for us for sure and I would be really happy to see him scoring in the CL final now.

But so far he has the most big chances missed, most shots taken and most times been in an offside position so this narrative about how he has been so amazing is just ignoring a lot of reality, anyone that really thinks that his first season is comparable and up there with the likes of D.Costa is deluded, that much is proven by now.

Unshun:

Selective reading again Gol? Two can play at that game - looks like you are the only one saying he is "amazing".

He's so amazing, comparable and up there with D.Costa is proven.

Reshun.

38 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

And this is exactly where I see Werner fitting in. He has a career here and a really good one i feel. He does a lot well bit being the main man for goals simply is not it. 

He and we need a main striker and a capable backup TT trusts to allow Timo to play off that striker to the left, as he did well for Red Bull.

If we sign another striker and Werner plays just off him to the left, where do some of our other players fit? Pulisic, Mount, Havertz, we need to get all of these players starting together regularly. Havertz is possibly the most naturally gifted player in the team right now, he needs to be playing, not sitting on the bench every week. I would rather see him playing off the striker than Werner. 

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

And this is exactly where I see Werner fitting in. He has a career here and a really good one i feel. He does a lot well bit being the main man for goals simply is not it. 

He and we need a main striker and a capable backup TT trusts to allow Timo to play off that striker to the left, as he did well for Red Bull.

He can't though. Willian was excellent at everything except in final 3rd so you could use him many ways.

With werner there is only one way to use him, he need to be on the shoulder of defense so he can run behind. That is it. Lampard tried to play him as winger and it failed big time. 

3 hours ago, BluesPower said:

Not sure where the "amazing" narrative comes from - maybe confusing it with the Jorginho thread?  Also not sure why we need to compare him with Costa's 1st season?  But I'll be willing to bet his numbers next year will be favourable to Diego's 2nd season (16 goals/11assists).

If he ends up netting the winner vs Citeh, his 1st year numbers are right up there with the King himself.  Drogba had 16 goals/ 8 assists leading us to the prem title.  Werner is sitting on 12 goals/ 14 assists right now without mentioning winning that key penalty yesterday.

I have already proven how Werner's season isn't at all at the same level as our other strikers e.g. Diego Costa but this same weak argument about his overall contribution keeps getting repeated in the sense that Werner is up there as some of the best strikers that we had in their first ever season so that is laughable.

I also hope he gets better next season but I'm talking about this one, if you really believe he's comparable to some of our best strikers already then by all means Morata is as well because he had 11 goals and 6 assists in his first PL season for us so, with 450 minutes less played than Werner so by this hilariously low bar standard Morata was better than Werner 

Edited May 19, 20215 yr by Gol15

@nonotnowjim I see what you mean 🙂

Can't understand all this bickering in half the threads - with a CL final just coming up. 🙃 As if we'd play some relegation style football, barely scraping by any results.

Edited May 19, 20215 yr by weetee

2 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

If we sign another striker and Werner plays just off him to the left, where do some of our other players fit? Pulisic, Mount, Havertz, we need to get all of these players starting together regularly. Havertz is possibly the most naturally gifted player in the team right now, he needs to be playing, not sitting on the bench every week. I would rather see him playing off the striker than Werner. 

If we sign a new striker e.g. Haaland, Werner would be used as a backup. After all isn't that what happen to Shevchenko, he played a lot when he was signed but couldn't score many goals and after that he was done despite his price tag, obviously the difference is that Werner should be in his prime while Shevchenko was already around 30 y/o. So I can imagine next season when Mount, Pulisic and Havertz further mature that they will be more complete players, a new striker would seriously put in question Werner's role, even Morata was more efficient than Werner, we have been playing without a proper goal-scoring striker for a while now.

Chelsea Strikers Ranked by First Season Goal Contributions (goals/assists combined) (All competitions)

1) Nicolas Anelka (first full season) 2008/09 - 54 games, 25 goals, 10 assists - TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 35 goals

2) JFH 2000/01 - 41 games, 26 goals, 1 assist - TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 27 goals

3) Fernando Torres (first full season) 2011/12 - 49 games, 11 goals, 16 assists - TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 27 goals

4) Timo Werner 2020/21 (to date) - 50 games, 12 goals, 14 assists - TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 26 goals

5) Diego Costa  2014/15- 37 games, 20 goals, 5 Assists = TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 25 goals

6) Didier Drogba 2004/05 - 26 games, 16 Goals, 8 assists = TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 24 goals

7) Andriy Shevchenko 2006/07 - 51 games, 14 goals, 10 assists - TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 24 goals

8. Alvaro Morata 2017/18 - 48 games, 15 Goals, 6 assists = TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 21 goals

9) Adrian Mutu 2003/04 - 36 games, 10 goals, 8 assists- TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 18 goals

10) Eidur Gudjohnson 2000/01 - 36 games, 13 goals, 0 assists - TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 13 goals

11) Hernan Crespo 2003/04 - 31 games, 12 goals, 0 assists - TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 12 goals

12) Demba Ba (first full season) 2013/14 - 29 games, 8 goals, 3 assists - TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 11 goals

 

As I have said multiple times, Timo has not been perfect, and clearly he isn't scoring enough. But he has given himself a decent enough platform to build on.

I miss Anelka!

 

1 hour ago, nonotnowjim said:

Chelsea Strikers Ranked by First Season Goal Contributions (goals/assists combined) (All competitions)

1) Nicolas Anelka (first full season) 2008/09 - 54 games, 25 goals, 10 assists - TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 35 goals

2) JFH 2000/01 - 41 games, 26 goals, 1 assist - TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 27 goals

3) Fernando Torres (first full season) 2011/12 - 49 games, 11 goals, 16 assists - TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 27 goals

4) Timo Werner 2020/21 (to date) - 50 games, 12 goals, 14 assists - TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 26 goals

5) Diego Costa  2014/15- 37 games, 20 goals, 5 Assists = TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 25 goals

6) Didier Drogba 2004/05 - 26 games, 16 Goals, 8 assists = TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 24 goals

7) Andriy Shevchenko 2006/07 - 51 games, 14 goals, 10 assists - TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 24 goals

8. Alvaro Morata 2017/18 - 48 games, 15 Goals, 6 assists = TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 21 goals

9) Adrian Mutu 2003/04 - 36 games, 10 goals, 8 assists- TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 18 goals

10) Eidur Gudjohnson 2000/01 - 36 games, 13 goals, 0 assists - TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 13 goals

11) Hernan Crespo 2003/04 - 31 games, 12 goals, 0 assists - TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 12 goals

12) Demba Ba (first full season) 2013/14 - 29 games, 8 goals, 3 assists - TOTAL GOAL CONTRIBUTIONS 11 goals

 

As I have said multiple times, Timo has not been perfect, and clearly he isn't scoring enough. But he has given himself a decent enough platform to build on.

I miss Anelka!

Although he misses a few he seems decent at winning penalties, wonder if he watched Klinsman as a youngster.

11 hours ago, Strider6003 said:

Strange thing with Werner is he is putting away the off-side goals yet not those in open play.

The way he is celebrating when he thinks he has scored suggests he badly wants to score.

A Strange conundrum.

 

 

Its bizarre how lethal he is when he is offside. Shows real composure when he is off, maybe a reason to be hopeful he can turn it around next season, there's a competent finisher in there somewhere. 

Hahaha how on earth is Torres 3rd on that list.

1 hour ago, Amputechture said:

Hahaha how on earth is Torres 3rd on that list.

I know. But the same can said for Timo. It just shows how us fans place a certain value on specific things, rather than seeing the bigger picture.  

For example, If Torres had of contributed  25 goals and 2 assists that year, the chances are most would have been saying he was a raging success - even if the goals/results were 100% the same.

Likewise, if Timo had contributed 23 goals and 3 assists this season,  I would bet that most on here would be saying he was having a brilliant first season - even though the total contributions and results would have been the same.

 

 

Just a couple of banal points.

Assist =/= Goal
Sometimes one is the greater/harder part, sometimes the other - but, imo, on average, the actual scoring is the bigger deal. For every genius defense-splitting pass that left the striker with  a tap-in - there are two goals where the last pass was a nothing and left the striker with all the work to do. (I picked this proportion out of thin air, so happy to be convinced I am wrong 🙂 )

Also, the ranking would look very different if they did contributions per game. I know the overall impact over season matters as well, but e.g. Drogba's 24/26 is way more impressive than Werners 26/50.

And finally, I don't think a lot of people are saying Werner has been useless. I think the point being made more often is that he is not doing the center forward's job of scoring goals and we need somebody who will. (Cue discussion about systems, Firmino, false 9s and all that) 

My  point being is that I am not sure it's true that fans don't see the bigger picture. Sometimes it's the metrics that are misleading and the intuitive perception is the better reflection of the bigger picture.

19 minutes ago, _Ilya_ said:

Just a couple of banal points.

Assist =/= Goal
Sometimes one is the greater/harder part, sometimes the other - but, imo, on average, the actual scoring is the bigger deal. For every genius defense-splitting pass that left the striker with  a tap-in - there are two goals where the last pass was a nothing and left the striker with all the work to do. (I picked this proportion out of thin air, so happy to be convinced I am wrong 🙂 )

Also, the ranking would look very different if they did contributions per game. I know the overall impact over season matters as well, but e.g. Drogba's 24/26 is way more impressive than Werners 26/50.

And finally, I don't think a lot of people are saying Werner has been useless. I think the point being made more often is that he is not doing the center forward's job of scoring goals and we need somebody who will. (Cue discussion about systems, Firmino, false 9s and all that) 

My  point being is that I am not sure it's true that fans don't see the bigger picture. Sometimes it's the metrics that are misleading and the intuitive perception is the better reflection of the bigger picture.

I don't disagree with most of what you say....

... but have a read through this thread and matchday threads.  The contributions of many posters make it feel like Werner is the worst player we have. Comments like (paraphrasing) " I am done with him", " I never want to see him in a Chelsea shirt again", "Timo is so bad he must be the love child of gol15 and Jorginho"...etc etc. 

Now, I am not saying he has been good enough. Far from it. I have regularly said the exact opposite and acknowledge that he needs to improve areas of his game.  

But he is nowhere near as bad as many on here would have us believe, and the vitriol he attracts is ridiculous. People try to discredit his contributions all they like,  but the reality is that without his crucial goals/assists, we are well off the top 4.

Simply put, despite his flaws, Timo is crucial to us and how we play, and he has built a fantastic foundation to build on.

If we beat City due to two of Werner's acquired penalties that might be interesting to read the media post match commentary. 

 

16 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

I don't disagree with most of what you say....

... but have a read through this thread and matchday threads.  The contributions of many posters make it feel like Werner is the worst player we have. Comments like (paraphrasing) " I am done with him", " I never want to see him in a Chelsea shirt again", "Timo is so bad he must be the love child of gol15 and Jorginho"...etc etc. 

Now, I am not saying he has been good enough. Far from it. I have regularly said the exact opposite and acknowledge that he needs to improve areas of his game.  

But he is nowhere near as bad as many on here would have us believe, and the vitriol he attracts is ridiculous. People try to discredit his contributions all they like,  but the reality is that without his crucial goals/assists, we are well off the top 4.

Simply put, despite his flaws, Timo is crucial to us and how we play, and he has built a fantastic foundation to build on.

Yeah. I and others mentioned during and after the Leicester game being struck by the favourable reception he got from the fans. The reason it stood out for me had a lot to do with the stark contrast vs the sentiment on here. Naturally during lockdown this forum has taken on more importance  as a sentiment gauge. But this contrast makes me wonder how reliable. Or maybe the sentiment on here is skewed by the more vocal naysayers? I’m just thinking out loud but curious to hear what others think.