It doesn't matter if Kante is a proven winner if he's not playing well, playing on reputation is part of the problem. And people who thought replacing Jorginho with Kante would fix a lot of our defensive woes... Well it certainly hasn't, how many goals have we conceded now in the last 4 games? Why was he trying to win a header on the edge of the box against a 6'5 player that let them counter attack and score the winning goal? I wonder if he'll get the same blame coming his way Jorginho did whenever we lost a game with him in the midfield, I doubt it. 

I hope this is eye opening to a lot of people.

I don't disagree. If a player is out of form then no disputing at all that they shouldn't be exempt from being dropped.

My point is more longer term than temporary form.

I mentioned a lot of players who I don't think are up to the standard required if we are genuinely targeting challenging for titles in the near future. That has nothing to do with form and everything to do with ability. However as you, consistently, see it as all about Jorginho then I may as well.

Is he a player, in his role, who will be a key player in a title challenging side? No. Is he a top four, there or thereabouts player? Absolutely. We have many of them but you only really have one focus so it's pointless talking more widely.

I hope we sell him whilst we can still get decent value for him and reinvest the money. There are others I feel the same about but you don't really invest much time in considering them.

Apart from Willian, Pullisic, Barkley, the rest just didn't show up. Disgraceful defending for all 3 goals, the central defenders are laughable and fullbacks proved to be too slow against fast players on the counter. Now the pressure is really on, like Frank said, the City game is nothing if we can't win the next game.

59 minutes ago, Argo said:

God, now i know what it must be like trying to converse with Ty from AFTV.

You should just look in the mirror for that, you have been bitching about Kante ever since pre Villa game. Now after 1 loss you think you won something here, you're pathetic.

Apart from Willian, Pullisic, Barkley, the rest just didn't show up. Disgraceful defending for all 3 goals, the central defenders are laughable and fullbacks proved to be too slow against fast players on the counter. Now the pressure is really on, like Frank said, the City game is nothing if we can't win the next game.

Sounds odd when he got two goals but did Willian really show up. Two set piece goals but offered very little otherwise. A shed load of half breaks then a blind pass or cross which was nothing more than hopeful.

I thought he was poor tonight bar taking advantage of the set piece opportunities.

Just now, Gol15 said:

You should just look in the mirror for that, you have been bitching about Kante ever since pre Villa game. Now after 1 loss you think you won something here, you're pathetic.

Ah the old "i've lost the argument so i'm going to start name calling".

46 minutes ago, hephzibah said:

What are some of us here raging about. James and Emerson at full backs today alongside Rudiger and Christensen for me would have been a better defense. Accept it or not, that would have been a beautiful defense. 

Take a look at their third goal, it was really embarrassing to see a team of Chelsea's standard concede that kind of goal. And it was Alonso's fault, I hope the season can end quickly so that we can get a better left back. Then I think Aspilicueta has played enough for Chelsea, if Chelsea wants to be at a very top position, we need quality players, if we can get a better right back too, it's okay too.

Then we need a better centre defender to play alongside Rudiger. For those people blasting Rudiger, I'll like u to know that if u don't have a good cover in front of u as a defender too, u can be exposed too. So maybe a strong defensive midfielder to play alongside Kante will make us stronger. 

Then, maybe a good attacking midfielder will be good too. A proper midfielder. One that is world-class. We need to buy one. We can all see Fernandez and Pogba at Man Utd.

Then definitely, Willian deserves what he is asking from Chelsea right now, Chelsea should give him.

you lost me when u said rudiger and christensen.. Christensen is a bitch and i hope he doesnt start against watford or else Deeney will make him his bitch. Christensen is good when the game is on the ground and more continental but when it is a british physical game he puts on his skirt and plays like a you know what.  Hopefully zouma plays against watford

1 minute ago, loz said:

I don't disagree. If a player is out of form then no disputing at all that they shouldn't be exempt from being dropped.

My point is more longer term than temporary form.

I mentioned a lot of players who I don't think are up to the standard required if we are genuinely targeting challenging for titles in the near future. That has nothing to do with form and everything to do with ability. However as you, consistently, see it as all about Jorginho then I may as well.

Is he a player, in his role, who will be a key player in a title challenging side? No. Is he a top four, there or thereabouts player? Absolutely. We have many of them but you only really have one focus so it's pointless talking more widely.

I hope we sell him whilst we can still get decent value for him and reinvest the money. There are others I feel the same about but you don't really invest much time in considering them.

I don't just see it all about Jorginho, but I am hoping this puts to bed that Jorginho is the reason for why we concede so many goals. I personally think he's much better than Kante in the middle. I can see why people don't rate him that highly, but who's better than him right now in the middle? Even if Jorginho isn't the best defensively, he at least offers much better distribution in the middle. 

And I know you're not singling out Jorginho, I probably got carried away there if I'm being honest. It was just how you were saying Jorginho isn't good enough, but Kante is the proven winner after seeing a game like that. But prioritse first, that back 5 needs an overhaul, lets forget about the midfield at the moment. 

2 minutes ago, Argo said:

Ah the old "i've lost the argument so i'm going to start name calling".

We already lost to West Ham this season...with Jorginho playing, being in the starting lineup. What did you win now? What argument? 5 wins in a row 1 loss and you won? Go support Arsenal now you're qualified. 

Edited July 1, 20206 yr by Gol15

6 minutes ago, icecoolguy22 said:

Apart from Willian, Pullisic, Barkley, the rest just didn't show up. Disgraceful defending for all 3 goals, the central defenders are laughable and fullbacks proved to be too slow against fast players on the counter. Now the pressure is really on, like Frank said, the City game is nothing if we can't win the next game.

Just like against Leicester, he got the assist but I thought Willian was still woeful, and again today. At least he did show up when it mattered I'll give him props for that but I can't forget how bad he was besides that. Barkley and Kovacic didn't do enough to influence the game.

Just now, Gol15 said:

We already lost to West Ham this season...with Jorginho playing being in the starting lineup. What did you win now? What argument? 5 wins in a row 1 loss and you won? Go support Arsenal now you're qualified.

You haven't created any argument.

Your "reasoning" behind Kante carrying on being selected is we shouldn't change a winning team, but then totally contradicted yourself when another example was brought up.

Actually @Gol15 instead of this back and fourth i've got a better idea. It's quite clear that your preference is to see Kante as a sitting DM long term, so how about you explain why and give us detailed reasoning. What do you see watching him in that position that makes you think it can work long term and we can get back to competing for the title?

4 minutes ago, Argo said:

Ah the old "i've lost the argument so i'm going to start name calling".

Come on Argo !!! you are one of the few i actually respect on this forum. I will admit i was a fan of Kante in the defensive midfield position because he wasnt running around like a headless chicken in the attacking hard but he did just that coming for that header. Maka def wouldnt have done that. I am not a Jorginho fan but he would definitely have done more than loftus cheek who was f**king abysmal.   May be we should have brought on jorginho and had kante play  box to box instead of RLC but hindsight is 2020. Either it wont surprise me if after losing to west ham we go win at anfield in the pelutimate game of the season.  WE ARE JUST f**kING UNPREDICTABLE 

1 minute ago, The Don Antonio said:

Come on Argo !!! you are one of the few i actually respect on this forum. I will admit i was a fan of Kante in the defensive midfield position because he wasnt running around like a headless chicken in the attacking hard but he did just that coming for that header. Maka def wouldnt have done that. I am not a Jorginho fan but he would definitely have done more than loftus cheek who was f**king abysmal.   May be we should have brought on jorginho and had kante play  box to box instead of RLC but hindsight is 2020. Either it wont surprise me if after losing to west ham we go win at anfield in the pelutimate game of the season.  WE ARE JUST f**kING UNPREDICTABLE 

I think a major issue with Kante is we will get 6-7's out of 10 but the Kante we saw under Conte and at Leicester just doesn't appear in possession based 3 man midfields. His niche is a 2 man midfield in counter attack set up's with a sitter behind him.

He's still a good option to have despite that but he absolute shouldn't be an undisputed starter (same with Rudiger).

5 minutes ago, Argo said:

I think a major issue with Kante is we will get 6-7's out of 10 but the Kante we saw under Conte and at Leicester just doesn't appear in possession based 3 man midfields. His niche is a 2 man midfield in counter attack set up's with a sitter behind him.

He's still a good option to have despite that but he absolute shouldn't be an undisputed starter (same with Rudiger).

I definitely agree with you on Rudiger and you can add soft ass Christensen to the mix.  I honestly feel like lampard has to take some of the blame for the result. Westham are not a better team than us but they looked fresher than us. They had an 8 day break while we played 2 matches during their rest period. We should have rotated the team and blitzed them but lampard would rather leave a fresh Giroud,Pedro,Zouma and Jorginho on the bench. Lampard did the same thing running our starters to the ground and that caused our blip earlier in the season.  

Who were punching way above their weight, is that what you mean ? 

Can't defend

Missed the game due to Canada Day get together...kept an eye on the game via twitter WTF happened?  This loss could make things very difficult to hang on to 4th or even 5th the way Wolves and Man U are playing.

Disgraceful result. West ham are garbage. Every time they have gone behind they have lost this season I read. Until today that it. 

You could see in that first half we were not at it at all. Really shocking concentration first from Tammy to concede a corner which VAR let us off for. Then Rudiger basically shielded and still kicks out for a corner that Kepa makes a right plum of himself at and Tammy misses a simple goal line clearance.

Shocking performance, shocking attitude and concentration against a really poor opponent.

Thought job was done cause we beat City probably. Not good enough.

2 minutes ago, Argo said:

You haven't created any argument.

Your "reasoning" behind Kante carrying on being selected is we shouldn't change a winning team, but then totally contradicted yourself when another example was brought up.

A CL final where our key players simply couldn't play even if they wanted to, can't be compared with a stretch of games where the manager can choose from 99% of the squad as he see fits. So if that's what you're talking about, that's not a valid example at all, let it go it makes no sense. Pretty sure I said it days ago somewhere.

 

1 minute ago, Argo said:

Actually @Gol15 instead of this back and fourth i've got a better idea. It's quite clear that your preference is to see Kante as a sitting DM long term, so how about you explain why and give us detailed reasoning. What do you see watching him in that position that makes you think it can work long term and we can get back to competing for the title?

My preferred player as a deep lying playmaker has always been Jorginho, his own stats and leadership would be what I would use to prove that he's the best there and I believe that he makes a lot of players better around him but I don't have the stats to prove it.

Kante always needed a player that sits deep while he covers ground, examples in 4-4-2 had been Matic and he has been doing that recently for ManU as a sitting DM, the other one was Fabregas.
Sarri used him to win space and for pressing in 4-3-3 and he scored only 1 goal less than Morata/Higuain while Jorginho was the deep lying playmaker and we were top 3 in the league.

We don't have the players for 4-4-2 and I don't see our 4-3-3 as our best formation, so in this point in time if you want to make an argument that Kante can be the sitting DM in a 4-3-3 we would need to buy a world class midfielder that is more creative in the final third because Kante and Kovacic override each other as they are often doing the same thing either one of them with not much vision chooses to run with the ball some yards while the other one is just standing with very low movement without the ball. While I believe that Kovacic will be shooting more next season the third player that would produce some end product is still not there because Mount is still developing and his strength comes from running without the ball and ultimately Barkley does lack the consistency of being chosen for the long term.

So if we're talking about the long term I still prefer the 4-2-3-1 that we had at the start of the season but I don't believe that we can be competing for the title based on how our midfield functions right now, if I was to select what would help our midfield the most that would be 2 players that would make a difference out there;

- A new LB that would make it easier for someone like Kovacic that likes to run with the ball towards the left side of the pitch. That would be great because it's an extra option for Kova and I simply don't see Alonso being capable of playing the ball, he just does it when he has already made a run forward till the enemy box or corner flag but any other transitioning or situation before that and he simply struggles.

- An offensive player that makes it hard for the opposition back-line to push higher up the pitch. If we were to sign a great offensive player that would take off the pressure from our midfield we would as a result win more space and our midfield would dominate more possession and we would have more options for Kova and Jorghy. A player like Havertz for example would be good because if the opposition tries to cover the space where Jorghy or Kova are willing to play he would in turn have the space to punish the opposition and if they were to mark him tightly then Kova and Jorghy would still be effective in making openings and looking for wingers to make their runs, the last time that happened was when we had Hazard.

3 hours ago, Ernie_blue said:

Pulisic is easily a cut above any other attacking player we have

 

Just wait until you see Pulisic, Werner, and Ziyech attack the goal together. It will be fireworks I tell you.

 

3 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

The only thing that worries me about Ziyech arriving is if he forces Pulisic to play right wing. Pulisic is so much better on the left.

 

Why do you have to worry?

Pulisic - Werner - Ziyech every game, as long as they're healthy.

You don't need to be Pep or Klopp to figure that out.

 

3 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Mount’s our most important player. Sets the tempo and brings energy all over the pitch. Has to start every game here on out. 

 

I probably said this a few too many times already, but Mount is not going to be the most talented guy on the field but his energy and press is insane. The more I see him, the more I like him. 

One more point. 3(4) west ham efforts on target. 3 (4) west ham goals.

Terrible.

 

Honestly I would fully back Frank making 8 changes for Watford to let those dropped know that was not good enough for the Chelsea badge.

 

Willy Cab

 

James

Zouma

Tomori

Maatsen (I know it would be Emerson)

 

Gilmour (or Jorginho not both)

Kovacic

Mount

 

Willian 

Giroud

Pulisic

Edited July 2, 20206 yr by axman2526

On 30/06/2020 at 05:19, Chelsea Buzz said:

In recent years, you are correct. I am hoping Frank is keeping them focused.

Oddly, with the three month pandemic, this no longer seems like Frank’s first season. I see more confidence in him and this, now more than ever, is his team. He knows what to expect from each player and each player knows what to expect from Frank.
 

Come on you Chelsea!!

Well, was proven wrong on this one.

3 hours ago, Brutos said:

This team is a mirror of Derby last season

 

Was that Derby team any good? I didn't see it.

28 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

One more point. 3(4) west ham efforts on target. 3 (4) west ham goals.

Terrible.

 

Honestly I would fully back Frank making 8 changes for Watford to let those dropped know that was not good enough for the Chelsea badge.

 

Willy Cab

 

James

Zouma

Tomori

Maatsen (I know it would be Emerson)

 

Gilmour (or Jorginho not both)

Kovacic

Mount

 

Willian 

Giroud

Pulisic

I am sorry the blame is on lampard and not the players. Every tom dick and harry knew that Westham had an 8 day break while we played 2 games in between their break. Lampard should have rotated especially with this short end of the season but he played Bitch ass Christensen who is not built for a physical game /Derby while we had the Rock Zouma on the bench. He did the same thing when we were on a run earlier in the season and our players hit a brick all. He has to learn to pick teams based on opponents and not preferential treatment.  If he picks Christensen against watford then i will know that we might need a new manager to take this young team foward because Deeney will make Christensen his bitch the same way Drogba made Senderoos or whatever that Arsenal defenders name was his bitch

Edited July 2, 20206 yr by The Don Antonio