4 minutes ago, forbzy said:

I was also a little concerned about his post-match comments for the same reason. In his short time at the club Tuchel's greatest success has been getting results in key games. The style of play hasn't always been great to watch but we have mostly come up with the results in the big games and that went a big way towards delivering the Champions League, along with a good record in games against the big rivals. However we all know that managers at Chelsea are only as good as their recent games, and scrutiny will quickly build if the results go South. A key patch of games approaching for Tuchel's Chelsea career. Perhaps the international break is coming at the right time for once as it will give him a chance to regroup.

Scolari, AVB, Jose mark 2, Frank all made comments similar to his as there ends approached.

Not saying TT is out the door soon but the comments are a concern as they are a sign of the players turning on and not listening too the coach.

9 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Scolari, AVB, Jose mark 2, Frank all made comments similar to his as there ends approached.

Not saying TT is out the door soon but the comments are a concern as they are a sign of the players turning on and not listening too the coach.

He is probably best advised to go with players on form as always. So that means the likes of Alonso, Ziyech seeing some bench time after recent performances. Hopefully RLC, CHO, Chilwell get starts at the weekend. 

9 minutes ago, forbzy said:

He is probably best advised to go with players on form as always. So that means the likes of Alonso, Ziyech seeing some bench time after recent performances. Hopefully RLC, CHO, Chilwell get starts at the weekend. 

Honestly he is in a no lose situation. If it turns back around for hin great, if not he gets a nice payout, his reputation enhanced after the CL win, pick of many sides and can point blame to our failure to sign him Kounde and a midfielder he wanted (rice) as well as the players not following his ordered.

Worked well for Conte. 

8 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Honestly he is in a no lose situation. If it turns back around for hin great, if not he gets a nice payout, his reputation enhanced after the CL win, pick of many sides and can point blame to our failure to sign him Kounde and a midfielder he wanted (rice) as well as the players not following his ordered.

Worked well for Conte. 

Fair points. Certainly you only have to look at how he bounced back last season after he was shown the door by PSG. And I agree that if and when things don't work out for him at Chelsea some fallout with the board will probably be involved. Most likely over failed transfer targets.

2 hours ago, venom2011 said:

That's not correct in the slightest. It's painfully obvious that the energy levels have been lacking in some matches recently and key players are dallying on the ball and taking too many touches - confidence levels are also a little low. When/if that happens the tactical side becomes irrelevant. 

Again, it's always great to make an argument for something we've yet to see and then make sweeping statements like 'there is no reason why it shouldn't work'. PSG defended okay, but it wasn't near our performances when we are on song. And as I've said, they have players suited to a 4. PSG have Marquinhos, Kimpembe, Hakimi and Mendes - all of them athletic and suited to a four. Then they had 3 defensive midfielders in front of them. City still dominated the match in possession and quality+quantity of chances (1.97xG to PSG's 0.48).

But let's play the hypothetical 4 at the back game:

Chilwell, James, Rudiger, Christensen/Silva. 

Compare that to:

Trent, Matip, Van Dyk and Robertson

Cancelo, Laporte, Dias, Walker

Shaw, McGuire, Varane, AWB

So we've moved from having the best defense to being 3rd/4th in a four. Also can't play Jorginho regularly without being smashed on the counter.

And the point of this is to bring in another attacker, so for comparison again (2-man mid for simplicity):

Havertz, Mount, Ziyech/Werner

Sancho/Rashford, Fernandes, Greenwood

Grealish, KDB, Bernardo Silva

Mane, Salah, Elliot/Jones

Again we are 3rd/4th at best and it looks even worse if we control for a 3-man midfield instead. I also prefer the 4-3-3 but I don't want (or expect) Tuchel to change it with the current personnel and when the current individual issues exist.

Well I don't believe that the assumed lack of energy and confidence tells the whole story there even if it that was the case. Last season we performed great in away matches, now as the European champions I didn't see any lack of confidence nor energy, we started the game just like we would start any PL game against an opponent that is set to defend and that is willingly giving us the possession.

What I did clearly see however is that Allegri's team clearly let us have the possession all the way till the final third but with their forwards they tried to press when the option was there and it was clear to me after the first 30 minutes or so that Juventus was searching for a quick counter-attack where they would like to use the pace of their wingers. They have been struggling in their own domestic league and they went into the game without a real striker, their gameplan was to let us have the ball and wait for their chance and they got it and took it well, they were very clinical and their gameplan paid off, ours . That means that Tuchel got outplayed, Allegri let him have all the possession he wants but when it came down to break the defense we couldn't do it because Juventus did use most of their players to defend.

You can argue that we have struggled to break down the opposition defenses before in the most recent seasons but what was happening when Tuchel took over was that most of our opposition couldn't find that counter-attack and we were a hard team to break down while at the same time we were able to create goals from open play. This season however we are struggling to create chances and it's not just about any mental issues but tactical, even in the most recent games we won it was due to some small margins, 1 cross to Lukaku won us the game against Zenit otherwise that game finishes without us scoring at all, against Spurs we scored from a corner and basically 2 of the scorers were defenders and Kante's shot was a huge deflection so even when we won with a bigger margin it was mainly due to very specific circumstances and individual quality first and foremost. The last game we won that was really a convincing victory and due to a team effort was the game vs Villa and even in that game we scored 3 goals from 4 shots on target so even there we were mainly clinical and took our chances as if we were playing a top team when in reality it was just Villa. Since that game we played 5 games (Zenit, Spurs, Villa again, Man City, Juventus) and we scored 5 goals in total, that's 1 goal per game in the last 5 games, for a team that spent a lot of money on attacking players in recent times we're clearly not doing well enough in attack and that can't be hidden forever with our defensive stats. I see this as a tactical issue, not a personell one nor a mental one.

Our back 4 lineup would have been better had we signed Kounde but we can still play a 4-2-3-1 without problems. Chilwell is primarily a LB and James a RB and both of them when in form are one of the best in the league and with them playing there we used to make more crosses and we used to be dangerous from both positions, there is no reason why we should try to find Lukaku in the middle with our full-backs. Our central defenders are not that bad, T.Silva is still capable to play in any formation and we have Christensen that has been very good in a back 3 but for Denmark he plays in a back 4 and he's doing a decent job in that setup as well. Last season Liverpool had a major injury blow regarding their defenders and they kept playing with a back 4 and still finished top 4, we could finish top 4 with a 4-2-3-1 that Lampard played and with a 4-3-3 that Sarri played, in the end of the day if we can't create enough chances we are automatically fighting for a top 4 finish and not for the title, while playing very careful and essentially no risk and defensive football. Now you can argue that managers like D.Simeone and Conte won their domestic leagues like that but even last season I had doubts that this current system and tactic is going to last that long, after all when a team like Man City and Juventus play without a real striker it's very evident that our attackers can't find the openings for a clear-cut chance, we know that Lukaku will be marked and then it's all about Alonso/Azpilicueta making something out of nothing, that's not the best tactic and it's not working against these good teams.

3 hours ago, jack_super_class said:

I think the current formation is the best for squad we have. Kante and Kovacic aren't great in a 3, Jorginho lack of speed gets more exposed in a back four. Azpi is suited to a RCB in a 3, Alonso is poor as a LB. The problem we have is the current number 10's just aren't producing.

Ziyech was poor when we played in a 433, Havertz has been poor, Pulisic is always injured, Mount has started the season slowly, Werner is best playing centre forward. And CHO hasn't been giving much of a chance. If we can those attacking players performing better and more consistently i think we will be fine.

Isn’t this a myth though? Leicester played a back 4 with Kante, Same with Napoli with Jorginho. Azpi is a RB by trade. Fair enough Alonso was bought by Conte as a specialist for a back 3. 
As for No “10” you don’t have to play with a “10” and you could argue that almost all our players further up the pitch are wingers by trade not “10”s. 
I don’t think you can judge those performances under Lamps as his system was flawed and he kept tweaking it to make it work. 
Personally not a fan of 3-4–3; it is a negative formation, and i voiced concerns before the season started that I couldn’t see it working over a long season. Majority of teams would sit back and ask you to break them down, and if they are savy would frustrate you and leave with a point. You are also relying on 1-2 players to unlock a defence of 2 banks of 4.

My modest response to the above. The only player that Thomas brought in was Romelu. Unfortunately, I must confess that Ziyech, Havertz and Werner were all brought in by Frank. Their form is changing from game to game ..... Havertz is a great talent, but he requires lots of work. The other two are quite suitable to play against much weaker opponents. 

The problem is that, in current market, you can not sell a player who is underperforming and expect to get half of your money back ...... Challobah could be made into a good midfielder, but it will take time. It is a pity that we loaned Gallagher and couple of others. Ruben and Hudson need to work much more on themselves. Both have shown, in previous seasons (like during Sarri), that they can play MUCH better.

 

2 hours ago, ducavis said:

Isn’t this a myth though? Leicester played a back 4 with Kante, Same with Napoli with Jorginho. Azpi is a RB by trade. Fair enough Alonso was bought by Conte as a specialist for a back 3. 
As for No “10” you don’t have to play with a “10” and you could argue that almost all our players further up the pitch are wingers by trade not “10”s. 
I don’t think you can judge those performances under Lamps as his system was flawed and he kept tweaking it to make it work. 
Personally not a fan of 3-4–3; it is a negative formation, and i voiced concerns before the season started that I couldn’t see it working over a long season. Majority of teams would sit back and ask you to break them down, and if they are savy would frustrate you and leave with a point. You are also relying on 1-2 players to unlock a defence of 2 banks of 4.

They did and Kante is much better in a two, but it was Drinkwater who was sitting. I guess the Italian league is slower and less physical, and Napoli played with lots of possession so Jorginho lack of physical qualities weren't exposed as much. Not sure Azpi has the legs to play RB anymore.

Yeah i guess you are right, but Mount and Havertz are better centrally than playing outwide, but yeah Hudson Odoi, Pulisic and Ziyech are better playing more wide.

We won the league playing 343, we won 30 of our 38 games. The difference then to now is Hazard, he could create and dribble past players to open up space. I still think those attacking players i mentioned are the problem at the moment.

Edited September 30, 20214 yr by jack_super_class

12 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

They did and Kante is much better in a two, but it was Drinkwater who was sitting. I guess the Italian league is slower and less physical, and Napoli played with lots of possession so Jorginho lack of physical qualities weren't exposed as much. Not sure Azpi has the legs to play RB anymore.

Yeah i guess you are right, but Mount and Havertz are better centrally than playing outwide, but yeah Hudson Odoi, Pulisic and Ziyech are better playing more wide.

We won the league playing 343, we won 30 of our 38 games. The difference then to now is Hazard, he could create and dribble past players to open up space. I still think those attacking players i mentioned are the problem at the moment.

Caveat was no European football, playing once a week. There is a reason Conte who champions the formation never does well in Europe, the 3-4-3 isn’t sustainable over a long season. The wear on the WBs who are expected to cover the most distance, and regain possession the most isn’t just workable. You won’t also be subbing your WBs as you would other players, especially with the 3-sub rule in the PL.

43 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

They did and Kante is much better in a two, but it was Drinkwater who was sitting. I guess the Italian league is slower and less physical, and Napoli played with lots of possession so Jorginho lack of physical qualities weren't exposed as much.

Drinkwater isn't that much fast and Matic wasn't that much fast either, Fabregas as well... If those players with below average pace could be the sitting DM for Kante to have the freedom there as a box-to-box midfielder there is no reason not to try it with Jorginho as well in a back 4 formation, after all Sarri in a 4-3-3 had Kante ahead of Jorginho and we did fine that season even with a worse defense.

If we want to be the best team in the league we can't be happy going into 50-50 games against any better team and hope that we will win 1:0.

No manager will ever change the player power we are saddled with in this club. We’ve seen it before the new manager bounce, players that had been left out given a new chance and taking it, going onto glory sometimes. But then as sure as the bounce after a while we get this situation -  a completely inexplicable loss of form when all seemed to be going in the right direction, e.g. Alonso last night who looked like he did a year ago when SFL sent him to Coventry (not literally). Also think he needs to start looking at other formations like he did in the 2nd half chasing the game yesterday. 

Also I acknowledge he’s a top elite coach but apart from the CL victory (a great achievement) he’s got the same record as the chap he replaced - scraped top 4 and lost a cup final. Without Big Ears in the trophy cabinet currently  he’d be just another one of Roman’s fancy foreign coaches who’d be getting slagged by us now big time. take a look at their cumulative track record only JM lasted more than 2 seasons and that was only just.
 

5 hours ago, General said:

No manager will ever change the player power we are saddled with in this club. We’ve seen it before the new manager bounce, players that had been left out given a new chance and taking it, going onto glory sometimes. But then as sure as the bounce after a while we get this situation -  a completely inexplicable loss of form when all seemed to be going in the right direction, e.g. Alonso last night who looked like he did a year ago when SFL sent him to Coventry (not literally). Also think he needs to start looking at other formations like he did in the 2nd half chasing the game yesterday. 

Also I acknowledge he’s a top elite coach but apart from the CL victory (a great achievement) he’s got the same record as the chap he replaced - scraped top 4 and lost a cup final. Without Big Ears in the trophy cabinet currently  he’d be just another one of Roman’s fancy foreign coaches who’d be getting slagged by us now big time. take a look at their cumulative track record only JM lasted more than 2 seasons and that was only just.
 

Good points. I think Alonso is a great squad player but I am not sure he should be first choice starter at LB or LWB. The question is whether he would settle for the lesser squad role? If I remember correctly he was one of the players mentioned as delivering some unrest to the dressing room under Frank (after he had been sent on loan to Coventry ;)).

I also agree with you about Tuchel.  While the Champions League win was outstanding and unexpected, to a degree it papered over some of the flaws that were still evident, and especially the squad limitations. I wonder whether the board would have invested differently had we lost that final? Or at least cleaned house of some of the older players? As it worked out the more established players stayed on while a lot of talented youth were shipped off instead. I know we have buy backs for several but it remains to be seen if that was a wise decision.

19 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Drinkwater isn't that much fast and Matic wasn't that much fast either, Fabregas as well... If those players with below average pace could be the sitting DM for Kante to have the freedom there as a box-to-box midfielder there is no reason not to try it with Jorginho as well in a back 4 formation, after all Sarri in a 4-3-3 had Kante ahead of Jorginho and we did fine that season even with a worse defense.

If we want to be the best team in the league we can't be happy going into 50-50 games against any better team and hope that we will win 1:0.

I mean its a fair point, Although Drinkwater was helped at Leicester playing a deep block, and i never found Matic that slow, Fabregas was though. I think to get the best out of Kante we have to play 2 in CM, same with Kovacic.

I personally don't feel he was supported enough in the summer,a striker and probably a waste in Saul,just wasn't enough. 

57 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

I mean its a fair point, Although Drinkwater was helped at Leicester playing a deep block, and i never found Matic that slow, Fabregas was though. I think to get the best out of Kante we have to play 2 in CM, same with Kovacic.

I mean in all honesty I'm not sure what is a more absurd suggestion, to change the formation or to bench Lukaku and play with a false 9?

Because you don't buy a 100m striker just to bench him while he's your best scorer but you also don't change the formation that won you the CL title either. The one small argument I have is that when Conte saw that his formation wasn't working he changed it and we won the league with the same players.

I would like to hear what are @Argo's thoughts about it.

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I mean in all honesty I'm not sure what is a more absurd suggestion, to change the formation or to bench Lukaku and play with a false 9?

Because you don't buy a 100m striker just to bench him while he's your best scorer but you also don't change the formation that won you the CL title either. The one small argument I have is that when Conte saw that his formation wasn't working he changed it and we won the league with the same players.

I would like to hear what are @Argo's thoughts about it.

I dont want us to change the for formation or drop Lukaku or play a false 9.

3 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I mean in all honesty I'm not sure what is a more absurd suggestion, to change the formation or to bench Lukaku and play with a false 9?

Because you don't buy a 100m striker just to bench him while he's your best scorer but you also don't change the formation that won you the CL title either. The one small argument I have is that when Conte saw that his formation wasn't working he changed it and we won the league with the same players.

I would like to hear what are @Argo's thoughts about it.

If the game situation doesn't suit him it doesn't suit him, record signing or not he shouldn't be immune to being dropped if false 9 (which has been a UCL winning formula 2 of last 3 season's and a PL winning formula the last 2) is a better option in certain situations. Furthermore, if he knows his place is in jepoardy for the biggest games he may work at making the adaptations necessary to fit into the system in them (like Aguero did for Pep after being dropped due to system unsuitably).

Judging by the selection patterns so far though i don't hold much hope of it happening so realistically speaking i would like Tuchel to try what Martinez did for Belgium which is false 9 and Rom in the half space on the right cutting in, he is/will be quite effective in that role in my opinion and most crucially of all it gets Havertz back in his best position.

4 hours ago, jack_super_class said:

I dont want us to change the for formation or drop Lukaku or play a false 9.

Well if nothing changes, some changes will be made xD

 

2 hours ago, Argo said:

If the game situation doesn't suit him it doesn't suit him, record signing or not he shouldn't be immune to being dropped if false 9 (which has been a UCL winning formula 2 of last 3 season's and a PL winning formula the last 2) is a better option in certain situations. Furthermore, if he knows his place is in jepoardy for the biggest games he may work at making the adaptations necessary to fit into the system in them (like Aguero did for Pep after being dropped due to system unsuitably).

Judging by the selection patterns so far though i don't hold much hope of it happening so realistically speaking i would like Tuchel to try what Martinez did for Belgium which is false 9 and Rom in the half space on the right cutting in, he is/will be quite effective in that role in my opinion and most crucially of all it gets Havertz back in his best position.

Thanks for your input.

4 hours ago, Argo said:

If the game situation doesn't suit him it doesn't suit him, record signing or not...

 

Now this is interesting. Why would you drop record money to buy a player that does not fit into your system? 

10 hours ago, haviet1 said:

 

Now this is interesting. Why would you drop record money to buy a player that does not fit into your system? 

Pep spent a record fee and gave up a world class forward for a guy who was the athesis of his system. Fergie did likewise with both Veron and Berbatov (neither suited his high octane wing play style) and complicated areas he was pretty much set in. It does happen.

Maybe we were so desperate for a close to sure thing against the lesser sides and thought hiding/fitting him in the big games would be easier than it is, maybe Tuchel uncharacteristically panicked at the prospect of our attackers last season not improving their chance conversion.

Well before a ball is kicked I will say bravo to TT for saying the effort and performances in the last 2 games were not enough and that he has dropped several under performers and given chances to others to stake their claim.

Down to them to take it now.

After Southampton I still believe that our back 3 tactic isn't good anymore.

But I hope to see Lukaku-Werner +1 in attack if we continue with it and we most likely will.

Need to freshen up the tactics. Can't expect subs to turn the game around for every game. 

Watching Torino v Juventus atm, Juventus look like a pub team, can barely leave their own half and can't string three passes together. What happened it Turin mid week was totally an accident and if we'd play Juventus 10 times in the next two months we'd concede no goal and probably win 10/10.

We need to win at Brentford at all costs and then the next three (more than winnable) matches at home and the good vibes will come back.

47 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

After Southampton I still believe that our back 3 tactic isn't good anymore.

But I hope to see Lukaku-Werner +1 in attack if we continue with it and we most likely will.

I'm starting to think diamond is worth a try given CHO's nosedive, Ziyech reverting to type and Pulisic turning into Iwobi.