Official Thomas Tuchel *Now Sacked*

[axman2526]

58 minutes ago, Dean said:

I don’t know. I just don’t see the parallels. Things went wrong pretty quickly under those other managers iirc. The historical patterns you mention are valid but are there to be broken and I find looking for the breaks rather than the repeats to be quite a useful life (not just football) hack. Insofar as there’s a culture of player power, I don’t disagree but don’t think this is Chelsea-specific but more a feature of the top of the modern game, with the obscene paycheques etc.
 

going back to the initial point about the trend, it’s still very much a favourable one. One day that will change, and maybe the players will rebel, who knows… but we’re not there yet (in my view we are just getting started but that’s just me), so we should just enjoy the ride and not worry about any of this stuff yet.

Aye fair enough,  hopefully @LongtimerLurker is right:

56 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

As far as I can tell these players will fight for TT he's done a lot for various individual careers he's made Toni look world class he's reignited Andreas, he's got Jorginho and Kova playing even better than we thought possible. Kante to his best, he's gotten Kai to look like the player we spent £70m+ on,  Mount looks even better than under Lamps. He's at least got Timo contributing, Alonso despite yesterday has looked the best wb in the world at times. He's made James and Chillwell look good in what was an unfamiliar position to them at  the professional game. The list goes on.

 

[icecoolguy22]

Dont think anything he could have done to save us on Saturday, after all nobody whinged about 352 going into the game. Tuchel's assessment of the match was honest and fair, I'm sure he had harsh words with the players after the game. Expect changes to be made, and players will be picked on form as usual. I wouldn't be surprised if RLC gets a start this week. We aren't going to play CIty every week and they will beat us on their day , it's the next 6-10 games we must beat teams we should beat.

[CFCCAN]

I'll give TT a pass for Saturday's debacle but only just; either the players didn't understand what the game plan was, or it was a poor game plan to begin with.  If every player in blue and TT did not think that City were coming here for revenge, then their minds must have been elsewhere. City were going to press and hurry all over the park, Pep was not going to make the same mistake as the other games; We pissed around trying to play it out from the back and got smothered in the process and any link between defence and attack was cut off; the only out ball was going to be a long ball over the top and we couldn't even execute that right, even when we did get a chance. Sorry for the Alonso supporters, however as good as he has been lately he was the wrong choice for this game.  He is very good against mediocre teams but he can't defend or play the ball out worth sh*t against top opposition, I lost count how many times he fell over or lost the ball; looks like Bambi on ice at times. Not that Chillwell would have likely made a difference given how the game was going, but he has to be playing against those teams that are likely to have the ball more than us to offer more of defensive role.  Apart from the back 3 and Mendy, the rest of the team were awful and continually harried into making bad decisions and poor passes; yet TT never changed anything in the first half as we were getting outclassed by a hungrier team. 

Once it was clearly obvious in the first 5 minutes that we were not going to be brave and provide a press you could see what TT game plan was, hopefully nick the ball in midfield and counter attack; yet we were never going to win the ball ball standing 5 yards off the City players.   Was not pressing or being brave TT's decision? Perhaps it was.  Well I hope he's learned his lesson and doesn't come up with such a non combative, stand offish approach when we play them next time, we are the European Champions FFS not a bottom feeder who should fear City.  I don't worry when we lose, apart from being immediately pissed off, but lets go down fighting rather than bending over and taking it up the proverbial.... 

[axman2526]

10 minutes ago, CFCCAN said:

I'll give TT a pass for Saturday's debacle but only just; either the players didn't understand what the game plan was, or it was a poor game plan to begin with.  If every player in blue and TT did not think that City were coming here for revenge, then their minds must have been elsewhere. City were going to press and hurry all over the park, Pep was not going to make the same mistake as the other games; We pissed around trying to play it out from the back and got smothered in the process and any link between defence and attack was cut off; the only out ball was going to be a long ball over the top and we couldn't even execute that right, even when we did get a chance. Sorry for the Alonso supporters, however as good as he has been lately he was the wrong choice for this game.  He is very good against mediocre teams but he can't defend or play the ball out worth sh*t against top opposition, I lost count how many times he fell over or lost the ball; looks like Bambi on ice at times. Not that Chillwell would have likely made a difference given how the game was going, but he has to be playing against those teams that are likely to have the ball more than us to offer more of defensive role.  Apart from the back 3 and Mendy, the rest of the team were awful and continually harried into making bad decisions and poor passes; yet TT never changed anything in the first half as we were getting outclassed by a hungrier team. 

Once it was clearly obvious in the first 5 minutes that we were not going to be brave and provide a press you could see what TT game plan was, hopefully nick the ball in midfield and counter attack; yet we were never going to win the ball ball standing 5 yards off the City players.   Was not pressing or being brave TT's decision? Perhaps it was.  Well I hope he's learned his lesson and doesn't come up with such a non combative, stand offish approach when we play them next time, we are the European Champions FFS not a bottom feeder who should fear City.  I don't worry when we lose, apart from being immediately pissed off, but lets go down fighting rather than bending over and taking it up the proverbial.... 

It is also annoying that so much is being made about City and that their performance was "magnificent". It was not, if Jorgi gets a firmer deflection or none at all on that shot the game ends 0-0 because they wasted chance after chance against a side who produced a team display that Norwich would have been embarrassed by. What is the narrative then?

So much of what City did was highly impressive, ball retention, first touch, creativity etc but it was so because we, bar Mendy, Silva ane Rudi, were complete and utter sh*t.

Or to put it another way, if they miss chances like that when they go to Liverpool they are getting beat, cause Salah and Co won't be as whimpy in offence as we were.

[SydneyChelsea]

Less than a week ago many on this forum jumped @just (with some even resorting to call him a troll...) and yet what was said then was proven true. Tuchel took off Kante and our team suffered. You simply don't take off the best player in the world and expect to be competitive let alone win games against top teams.

Jorginho, Kovacic, Lukaku and especially Werner and Azpilicueta were abysmal in attack. Tuchel, lauded this week by media sycophants as the "best manager in the world", made some real clangers and would probably hold himself accountable more than most. Tuchel has often warned that we lack energy in attack and that was yet again apparent. One glaring squad weakness is the lack of players who are able to dribble/run at opponents, with only Lukaku and Pulisic seemingly willing to do so. Mitigiating this requires fast ball movement and energetic pressing, neither of which were evident.

Tuchel is often found yelling on the sidelines for the defenders to push forward and hold the high line, which is designed to stop the risk of situations like Gabriel Jesus and others taking pot shots from distance. The high line removes the element of luck from deep crosses and shots outside the box, and plays to our defenders strengths - in James, Azpilicueta, Thiago, Rudiger and Christensen we have 5 of the top 10 one-on-one defenders in world football right now and it is extremely hard for players to beat them around the outside. As soon as we drop deep, it allows more space for midfielders to pass into the channels from threatening positions, plus opens up the opportunity for long-distance shots. It also means we have more space to cover when pressing and when we do win the ball back, it has to be a long pass to a forward who is further away from goal.

Chilwell was also a big miss in a game like this, because of his ability to run with the ball and his speed in attack and defense. We desperately needed players able to carry the ball, with Kante the only one capable. Kovacic was unwilling to run at players in midfield which is strange given that has been his most outstanding attribute of late, and while Rodri gave a transition masterclass at one end, Man City's players were just happy to let Jorginho have the ball and shepherd other players in to poor passing lanes. Subbing in Ruben Loftus-Cheek was a gamble but a good sub on Tuchel's part, as he was exactly the sort of player needed. A fully-fit and firing Saul would have been perfect for this game, too. Yet, in Kante we had the best player in the world in that role, and he was taken off early for some strange reason.

In the aftermath it will be interesting to see the passmap because it seems like the midfield were acting as if Werner, not Lukaku was the target man. Our best moments were when Lukaku made short work of Laporte with his back to goal, but failed to find a final pass to Werner. Similarly, Werner was given a few situations where he was 1 vs 1 with Dias or Cancelo and could not capitalise. The romantic notion than Lukaku's strength or Werner's pace alone are enough to force defences into submission was proven wrong. Havertz is really the best option for games like these although his unwillingness to dribble and beat players will always limit him until it improves.

But all is not lost despite the apparent mood shift on this part of the forum. It was one bad game, against one of the few teams with the players to actually exploit the weaknesses Chelsea have in attack. In fact it's nice to have a coach who is reflecting on his own mistakes more than critcising referees/FIFA/UEFA/the lizard people. City created little of note (no uncontested chances, for example) prior to Gabriel Jesus's goal and even after Chelsea were forced to come forward they were not their usual self. The real problem is that if this is City's best, Liverpool will beat them because they won't make the same mistakes in attack and that puts us a little behind in the title race.

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by SydneyChelsea

[charierre]

2 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Less than a week ago many on this forum jumped @just (with some even resorting to call him a troll...) and yet what was said then was proven true. Tuchel took off Kante and our team suffered. You simply don't take off the best player in the world and expect to be competitive let alone win games against top teams.

Jorginho, Kovacic, Lukaku and especially Werner and Azpilicueta were abysmal in attack. Tuchel, lauded this week by media sycophants as the "best manager in the world", made some real clangers and would probably hold himself accountable more than most. Tuchel has often warned that we lack energy in attack and that was yet again apparent. One glaring squad weakness is the lack of players who are able to dribble/run at opponents, with only Lukaku and Pulisic seemingly willing to do so. Mitigiating this requires fast ball movement and energetic pressing, neither of which were evident.

Tuchel is often found yelling on the sidelines for the defenders to push forward and hold the high line, which is designed to stop the risk of situations like Gabriel Jesus and others taking pot shots from distance. The high line removes the element of luck from deep crosses and shots outside the box, and plays to our defenders strengths - in James, Azpilicueta, Thiago, Rudiger and Christensen we have 5 of the top 10 one-on-one defenders in world football right now and it is extremely hard for players to beat them around the outside. As soon as we drop deep, it allows more space for midfielders to pass into the channels from threatening positions, plus opens up the opportunity for long-distance shots. It also means we have more space to cover when pressing and when we do win the ball back, it has to be a long pass to a forward who is further away from goal.

Chilwell was also a big miss in a game like this, because of his ability to run with the ball and his speed in attack and defense. We desperately needed players able to carry the ball, with Kante the only one capable. Kovacic was unwilling to run at players in midfield which is strange given that has been his most outstanding attribute of late, and while Rodri gave a transition masterclass at one end, Man City's players were just happy to let Jorginho have the ball and shepherd other players in to poor passing lanes. Subbing in Ruben Loftus-Cheek was a gamble but a good sub on Tuchel's part, as he was exactly the sort of player needed. A fully-fit and firing Saul would have been perfect for this game, too. Yet, in Kante we had the best player in the world in that role, and he was taken off early for some strange reason.

In the aftermath it will be interesting to see the passmap because it seems like the midfield were acting as if Werner, not Lukaku was the target man. Our best moments were when Lukaku made short work of Laporte with his back to goal, but failed to find a final pass to Werner. Similarly, Werner was given a few situations where he was 1 vs 1 with Dias or Cancelo and could not capitalise. The romantic notion than Lukaku's strength or Werner's pace alone are enough to force defences into submission was proven wrong. Havertz is really the best option for games like these although his unwillingness to dribble and beat players will always limit him until it improves.

But all is not lost despite the apparent mood shift on this part of the forum. It was one bad game, against one of the few teams with the players to actually exploit the weaknesses Chelsea have in attack. In fact it's nice to have a coach who is reflecting on his own mistakes more than critcising referees/FIFA/UEFA/the lizard people. City created little of note (no uncontested chances, for example) prior to Gabriel Jesus's goal and even after Chelsea were forced to come forward they were not their usual self. The real problem is that if this is City's best, Liverpool will beat them because they won't make the same mistakes in attack and that puts us a little behind in the title race.

 

Tuchel reported that Kante had been ill in the lead up to the game. It did seem an odd decision at the time.

https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/2021/09/25/tuchel-reacts-to-man-city-defeat

Edited September 27, 2021 by charierre

[Bob stark]

2 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Less than a week ago many on this forum jumped @just (with some even resorting to call him a troll...) and yet what was said then was proven true. Tuchel took off Kante and our team suffered. You simply don't take off the best player in the world and expect to be competitive let alone win games against top teams.

Jorginho, Kovacic, Lukaku and especially Werner and Azpilicueta were abysmal in attack. Tuchel, lauded this week by media sycophants as the "best manager in the world", made some real clangers and would probably hold himself accountable more than most. Tuchel has often warned that we lack energy in attack and that was yet again apparent. One glaring squad weakness is the lack of players who are able to dribble/run at opponents, with only Lukaku and Pulisic seemingly willing to do so. Mitigiating this requires fast ball movement and energetic pressing, neither of which were evident.

Tuchel is often found yelling on the sidelines for the defenders to push forward and hold the high line, which is designed to stop the risk of situations like Gabriel Jesus and others taking pot shots from distance. The high line removes the element of luck from deep crosses and shots outside the box, and plays to our defenders strengths - in James, Azpilicueta, Thiago, Rudiger and Christensen we have 5 of the top 10 one-on-one defenders in world football right now and it is extremely hard for players to beat them around the outside. As soon as we drop deep, it allows more space for midfielders to pass into the channels from threatening positions, plus opens up the opportunity for long-distance shots. It also means we have more space to cover when pressing and when we do win the ball back, it has to be a long pass to a forward who is further away from goal.

Chilwell was also a big miss in a game like this, because of his ability to run with the ball and his speed in attack and defense. We desperately needed players able to carry the ball, with Kante the only one capable. Kovacic was unwilling to run at players in midfield which is strange given that has been his most outstanding attribute of late, and while Rodri gave a transition masterclass at one end, Man City's players were just happy to let Jorginho have the ball and shepherd other players in to poor passing lanes. Subbing in Ruben Loftus-Cheek was a gamble but a good sub on Tuchel's part, as he was exactly the sort of player needed. A fully-fit and firing Saul would have been perfect for this game, too. Yet, in Kante we had the best player in the world in that role, and he was taken off early for some strange reason.

In the aftermath it will be interesting to see the passmap because it seems like the midfield were acting as if Werner, not Lukaku was the target man. Our best moments were when Lukaku made short work of Laporte with his back to goal, but failed to find a final pass to Werner. Similarly, Werner was given a few situations where he was 1 vs 1 with Dias or Cancelo and could not capitalise. The romantic notion than Lukaku's strength or Werner's pace alone are enough to force defences into submission was proven wrong. Havertz is really the best option for games like these although his unwillingness to dribble and beat players will always limit him until it improves.

But all is not lost despite the apparent mood shift on this part of the forum. It was one bad game, against one of the few teams with the players to actually exploit the weaknesses Chelsea have in attack. In fact it's nice to have a coach who is reflecting on his own mistakes more than critcising referees/FIFA/UEFA/the lizard people. City created little of note (no uncontested chances, for example) prior to Gabriel Jesus's goal and even after Chelsea were forced to come forward they were not their usual self. The real problem is that if this is City's best, Liverpool will beat them because they won't make the same mistakes in attack and that puts us a little behind in the title race.

 

Kante was taken off because Tuchel said he had been sick for a couple days. It made sense though, I thought he didn't look right 

[DannyVblue]

I really didn't like our performance on Saturday. We beat them 3 times last season by engaging them high up the pitch, winning the ball back and then countering. We were way too deep on Saturday. It just seemed like the tactics were to defend deep and hit them on the counter with the pace of Werner and Lukaku. I thought Werner did well, but nothing stuck for Lukaku and he did seem a bit languid. I'd have taken Lukaku off at half time.

It's disappointing because we really could have made statement in this match, but we've now given them a massive confidence boost. 

Let's put this down to a bad day at the office, get over it, and make the most of our upcoming fixtures over the next couple of months.

P.S. Ruben staking a big claim for a lot more minutes than what I previously expected this season.

[Argo]

2 hours ago, DannyVblue said:

I really didn't like our performance on Saturday. We beat them 3 times last season by engaging them high up the pitch, winning the ball back and then countering. We were way too deep on Saturday. It just seemed like the tactics were to defend deep and hit them on the counter with the pace of Werner and Lukaku. I thought Werner did well, but nothing stuck for Lukaku and he did seem a bit languid. I'd have taken Lukaku off at half time.

That's my biggest concern, it seems like he's going to start and finish every match for us regardless of whether it's the right decision tactically or not.

Does Tuchel genuinely believe it's the right decision to do that or is he worried he's going to cause locker room problems if he's made to fight for his place? I'm not sure which would be worse.

[Guest Sindre]

31 minutes ago, Argo said:

Does Tuchel genuinely believe it's the right decision to do that or is he worried he's going to cause locker room problems if he's made to fight for his place?

Lukaku have earned his place on merit. Overall I think he's been brilliant and while he didn't shine again City he got absolutely no service either.

Not at all worried about him. If anything I am a lot more worried about the attackers around him. None of them have delivered so far this season and that needs to change. Lukaku have been our saving grace in attacking areas.

 

[weetee]

39 minutes ago, Argo said:

That's my biggest concern, it seems like he's going to start and finish every match for us regardless of whether it's the right decision tactically or not.

Does Tuchel genuinely believe it's the right decision to do that or is he worried he's going to cause locker room problems if he's made to fight for his place? I'm not sure which would be worse.

I think Lukaku looked quite good in all of our matches so far - only the last one sticks out but that goes for the whole team. I agree that a substitution of Rom against City would have been an interesting possibility since it clearly didn't really work out in general yet he still came off quite sharp once we finally started playing decent passes to him. It's just that those cut-in passes where few and extremely far between so City defenders could just take him (or Timo) out by foul yet never were really in danger to get a second yellow.

 

 

[coco]

38 minutes ago, Argo said:

That's my biggest concern, it seems like he's going to start and finish every match for us regardless of whether it's the right decision tactically or not.

Does Tuchel genuinely believe it's the right decision to do that or is he worried he's going to cause locker room problems if he's made to fight for his place? I'm not sure which would be worse.

I think he's still learning about Lukaku, now weve played our main two rivals and he's had chance to see what Lukaku is like in theses games against proper world class players, he will surely start to realise the old saying 'horses for courses'.

[Argo]

36 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Lukaku have earned his place on merit. Overall I think he's been brilliant and while he didn't shine again City he got absolutely no service either.

Not at all worried about him. If anything I am a lot more worried about the attackers around him. None of them have delivered so far this season and that needs to change. Lukaku have been our saving grace in attacking areas.

 

Although I wasn't keen on signing him I'm not so blinkered to say he doesn't have his uses, infact I think there's a good chance we will end up in a title race on his flat track bullying alone.

However in the context of our big game record and challenging in Europe I'm concerned. Ever since Pep's Barca pretty much every succesful team (be it winning the thing or consistently challenging) on the continent have been heavy pressing/every one involved heavily in the build up and that includes us last season. Lukaku heavily impacts on our ability to do both of those at an elite level, against the lesser sides he will score one or two and we will get away with it but against the big sides it will cost us.

And there's also Kai Havertz, early days but he barely looks half the player he was at the back end of last season playing false 9.

[LongtimerLurker]

For all the doom and gloom in the media and amongst some fans regarding that performance we are still in a position to go top of the table next match day. This of course dependant on other fixtures.

Points will be dropped throughout this season and not every performance is going to be to our liking. I've not looked at every team's fixture list but surely there hasn't been a harder start to the season than ours if you include the super cup as well.

After Wednesday's game we would have played 10 matches. Our first 9 matches of the season ( Villarreal for the super cup, Crystal Palace, Arsenal, Liverpool, Villa, Zenit, Spurs, Villa and finally City. 4/6 teams we faced in the prem are sat in the top half of the table.

In those 9 games we have conceded 5 goals. To 5 different teams, meaning no team has been able to score so far more than once against Tuchel's Chelsea. In those 9 games we have scored 15 goals and only failed to score vs City.

Of those 8 games in which we have scored half (4) of them  we have scored just 1 goal. 3 of which were cup games and the other we had a player sent off just before half time. We won all of those cup games either by pens or the single goal was enough vs Zenit. 

My point is sure the performance wasn't the best but, can anyone seriously want any better from where we are right now 9 games into the season? And I speak specifically from a results standpoint only. I too would like to see more attacking displays but, I expect that to come eventually.

Let's not forget of those 9 games, 3 were won by a 3-0 margin including vs Spurs, Palace and Villa. Furthermore we beat the Gunners 2-0 all these higher scoring games have come without a reply from the opponent.

The team hasn't even been playing under Tuchel for a year, Lukaku hasn't even had 10 games yet, to be one point of the top of the table with 6 games played and to have the chance to go top of our ucl group on Wednesday life doesn't seem to bad after our first loss of the season.

Current season record:

Wins 7 Draws 1 Loses 1

1 trophy won 🏆

Tuchel is allowed to have an off day I just hope people remember that.

[Guest Sindre]

3 hours ago, Argo said:

Although I wasn't keen on signing him I'm not so blinkered to say he doesn't have his uses, infact I think there's a good chance we will end up in a title race on his flat track bullying alone.

However in the context of our big game record and challenging in Europe I'm concerned. Ever since Pep's Barca pretty much every succesful team (be it winning the thing or consistently challenging) on the continent have been heavy pressing/every one involved heavily in the build up and that includes us last season. Lukaku heavily impacts on our ability to do both of those at an elite level, against the lesser sides he will score one or two and we will get away with it but against the big sides it will cost us.

And there's also Kai Havertz, early days but he barely looks half the player he was at the back end of last season playing false 9.

No doubt Lukaku is unable to press as much as Havertz for example. So you lose some of that but I would argue having Lukaku who will more than likely score when he gets a chance on the field weighs up for that. City isn't the only traditional big game we've played in this season and he and us as a team did plenty good enough away to Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal.

It was just a bit of a mesmerizing performance by City on Saturday. I don't think i've seen a team play as well as they did on Stamford Bridge for a long time and the only team I could compare that pressing performance too was when we faced Bayern under Lampard. We weren't ready for it on the occassion but i'd rather we get that out of the way now instead of later on in the season. I am almost convinced Tuchel and the team will learn a lot from that loss and bounce back.

[axman2526]

16 minutes ago, Sindre said:

No doubt Lukaku is unable to press as much as Havertz for example. So you lose some of that but I would argue having Lukaku who will more than likely score when he gets a chance on the field weighs up for that. City isn't the only traditional big game we've played in this season and he and us as a team did plenty good enough away to Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal.

It was just a bit of a mesmerizing performance by City on Saturday. I don't think i've seen a team play as well as they did on Stamford Bridge for a long time and the only team I could compare that pressing performance too was when we faced Bayern under Lampard. We weren't ready for it on the occassion but i'd rather we get that out of the way now instead of later on in the season. I am almost convinced Tuchel and the team will learn a lot from that loss and bounce back.

Bayerns was the complete performance. 

Like I have said before too many are ready to have that City display a 10+ out of 10, but for me it was an 8.5, still excellent but not as magnificent as Bayern were that day. The Germans attacking play and finishing was a cut above Cities and did not require a lucky goal to win the game.

Don't get me wrong City made us look like ameturers and deserved to win, however they lacked in attack and a better Chelsea or Liverpool on Saturday will punish them if they play like that.

[Bob stark]

16 hours ago, Sindre said:

No doubt Lukaku is unable to press as much as Havertz for example. So you lose some of that but I would argue having Lukaku who will more than likely score when he gets a chance on the field weighs up for that. City isn't the only traditional big game we've played in this season and he and us as a team did plenty good enough away to Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal.

It was just a bit of a mesmerizing performance by City on Saturday. I don't think i've seen a team play as well as they did on Stamford Bridge for a long time and the only team I could compare that pressing performance too was when we faced Bayern under Lampard. We weren't ready for it on the occassion but i'd rather we get that out of the way now instead of later on in the season. I am almost convinced Tuchel and the team will learn a lot from that loss and bounce back.

Lukaku should have done better but he is least of my concern. 

I am not sure you can compare bayern to city performance, I believe we played jogavic against Bayern. No Kante vs team who can attack through the middle = catastrophic. Arsenal with saka, esr and tierney was toying with our midfield before Kante came on and fix everything. 

[icecoolguy22]

Don't think Kante was fit to last the game or even play on Saturday, that was the least effective game he had for a while, and it's been over looked because we were so poor across the field. Any manager could be excused to lose a game against City, which Chelsea manager hasn't since Pep came on board? The next 6-10 games will tell if we really improved from last season, beating the teams around and below us.

[LongtimerLurker]

It's hard managing this squad, I know Tuchel wants to utilise this squad like Pep and rotate in and out depending on opponents, match sharpness etc. Sometimes though it's helpful to have a hierarchy established especially regarding your attackers.

We know Lukaku will play but, he hasn't actually had enough time to build up chemistry with anyone since the players around him are often switched around.

Rotating isnt necessarily a bad thing but, when you look at Klopp for example his front 3 are fixed with Firmino and Jota usually rotating. The players know each other well and this boosts chemistry.

I don't think at this moment we have a best front 3. The 3 that have probably played the most would be Mount, Havertz & Lukaku this season.

I'm not saying TT should look for a fixed 3 but, it can't be doing our attackers any favours at the moment being stifled from a good run of games to build up form.

Edited September 28, 2021 by LongtimerLurker

[ashwin]

On 27/09/2021 at 11:20, SydneyChelsea said:

Less than a week ago many on this forum jumped @just (with some even resorting to call him a troll...) and yet what was said then was proven true. Tuchel took off Kante and our team suffered. You simply don't take off the best player in the world and expect to be competitive let alone win games against top teams.

Jorginho, Kovacic, Lukaku and especially Werner and Azpilicueta were abysmal in attack. Tuchel, lauded this week by media sycophants as the "best manager in the world", made some real clangers and would probably hold himself accountable more than most. Tuchel has often warned that we lack energy in attack and that was yet again apparent. One glaring squad weakness is the lack of players who are able to dribble/run at opponents, with only Lukaku and Pulisic seemingly willing to do so. Mitigiating this requires fast ball movement and energetic pressing, neither of which were evident.

Tuchel is often found yelling on the sidelines for the defenders to push forward and hold the high line, which is designed to stop the risk of situations like Gabriel Jesus and others taking pot shots from distance. The high line removes the element of luck from deep crosses and shots outside the box, and plays to our defenders strengths - in James, Azpilicueta, Thiago, Rudiger and Christensen we have 5 of the top 10 one-on-one defenders in world football right now and it is extremely hard for players to beat them around the outside. As soon as we drop deep, it allows more space for midfielders to pass into the channels from threatening positions, plus opens up the opportunity for long-distance shots. It also means we have more space to cover when pressing and when we do win the ball back, it has to be a long pass to a forward who is further away from goal.

Chilwell was also a big miss in a game like this, because of his ability to run with the ball and his speed in attack and defense. We desperately needed players able to carry the ball, with Kante the only one capable. Kovacic was unwilling to run at players in midfield which is strange given that has been his most outstanding attribute of late, and while Rodri gave a transition masterclass at one end, Man City's players were just happy to let Jorginho have the ball and shepherd other players in to poor passing lanes. Subbing in Ruben Loftus-Cheek was a gamble but a good sub on Tuchel's part, as he was exactly the sort of player needed. A fully-fit and firing Saul would have been perfect for this game, too. Yet, in Kante we had the best player in the world in that role, and he was taken off early for some strange reason.

In the aftermath it will be interesting to see the passmap because it seems like the midfield were acting as if Werner, not Lukaku was the target man. Our best moments were when Lukaku made short work of Laporte with his back to goal, but failed to find a final pass to Werner. Similarly, Werner was given a few situations where he was 1 vs 1 with Dias or Cancelo and could not capitalise. The romantic notion than Lukaku's strength or Werner's pace alone are enough to force defences into submission was proven wrong. Havertz is really the best option for games like these although his unwillingness to dribble and beat players will always limit him until it improves.

But all is not lost despite the apparent mood shift on this part of the forum. It was one bad game, against one of the few teams with the players to actually exploit the weaknesses Chelsea have in attack. In fact it's nice to have a coach who is reflecting on his own mistakes more than critcising referees/FIFA/UEFA/the lizard people. City created little of note (no uncontested chances, for example) prior to Gabriel Jesus's goal and even after Chelsea were forced to come forward they were not their usual self. The real problem is that if this is City's best, Liverpool will beat them because they won't make the same mistakes in attack and that puts us a little behind in the title race.

 

In what way was Just's point "proven true"? What was that point exactly? He said that was a mistake by Tuchel and rated him 3.7/10 which was bizzare. Others said that Kante is no doubt our best player (something Tuchel no doubt recognizes) and is therefore being protected for long-term gains. Who knows, he may have been able to play at a higher level against City if we didn't need to get him on against Tottenham at all! Again, here against City, Kante was taken off because he was not 100%. 

Maybe you need to go back and read that again.

Can't disagree with the rest of your post.

And agree that the troll comment was unnecessary.

[Argo]

20 hours ago, Sindre said:

No doubt Lukaku is unable to press as much as Havertz for example. So you lose some of that but I would argue having Lukaku who will more than likely score when he gets a chance on the field weighs up for that. City isn't the only traditional big game we've played in this season and he and us as a team did plenty good enough away to Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal.

It was just a bit of a mesmerizing performance by City on Saturday. I don't think i've seen a team play as well as they did on Stamford Bridge for a long time and the only team I could compare that pressing performance too was when we faced Bayern under Lampard. We weren't ready for it on the occassion but i'd rather we get that out of the way now instead of later on in the season. I am almost convinced Tuchel and the team will learn a lot from that loss and bounce back.

That's the problem though, Lukaku simply doesn't put up the numbers in the clutch games.

He has scored 5 tìmes vs Liverpool but only once some 2013, only scored 3 against us, 1 against Spurs, 3 against United (which all came in what was effectively a testimonial match for Paul Scholes) and even against Arsenal he's only on 4. I'm sorry but that is simply not good enough to justify untouchable status in these type of games, especially when our other attackers actually have solid form for delivering in them. 

[LongtimerLurker]

1 hour ago, Argo said:

That's the problem though, Lukaku simply doesn't put up the numbers in the clutch games.

He has scored 5 tìmes vs Liverpool but only once some 2013, only scored 3 against us, 1 against Spurs, 3 against United (which all came in what was effectively a testimonial match for Paul Scholes) and even against Arsenal he's only on 4. I'm sorry but that is simply not good enough to justify untouchable status in these type of games, especially when our other attackers actually have solid form for delivering in them. 

Let's hope Tuchel can take him to the next level and improve his numbers for the team in these types of games. I'll be honest I knew signing a striker like many others meant moving away from what made us ucl winners last season at least to an extent.

Whether Tuchel can drop Rom for big games will remain to be seen. The games we played without him this season were 1-1, 3-0 and although he made a brief cameo the majority of the cup game against Villa was without him and even then he contributed in the shootout (1-1 90 mins) its too small of a sample size yet to know.

If you look at his performance vs Liverpool I think he played quite well and I saw enough to make me think he can contribute to our style, he didn't get a goal but, he was dangerous on transition multiple times. The City game we didn't have enough chances on transition and that's always going to make him appear to be ineffective not to mention he failed to hold the ball up on a couple of occasions.

Perhaps had there been another attacker like when Kai came on, he may have had a decisive moment for us.

[Argo]

Just now, LongtimerLurker said:

Let's hope Tuchel can take him to the next level and improve his numbers for the team in these types of games. I'll be honest I knew signing a striker like many others meant moving away from what made us ucl winners last season at least to an extent.

Whether Tuchel can drop Rom for big games will remain to be seen. The games we played without him this season were 1-1, 3-0 and although he made a brief cameo the majority of the cup game against Villa was without him and even then he contributed in the shootout (1-1 90 mins) its too small of a sample size yet to know.

If you look at his performance vs Liverpool I think he played quite well and I saw enough to make me think he can contribute to our style, he didn't get a goal but, he was dangerous on transition multiple times. The City game we didn't have enough chances on transition and that's always going to make him appear to be ineffective not to mention he failed to hold the ball up on a couple of occasions.

Perhaps had there been another attacker like when Kai came on, he may have had a decisive moment for us.

I'll give him his dues for the first half against Liverpool but the second he was infuriating me, he was walking around while the other 8 outfield players were working their bollax off to maintain a draw.

I wouldn't be so vocal about this if I felt he would be held to account if the big game jitters continued but the early evidence suggests he's going to be unconditionally playing 90 minutes in pretty much every game.

There will simply be some games where the pressing and workrate of Kai, Werner and Mount will be more suitable tactically and it has/will really frustrate me when those games come along and Rom is still playing the full 90 regardless.

[forbzy]

Tuchel has done an amazing job with our defense and organization in general. He has made the team very difficult to score against, let alone beat. That being said we still have a fair amount of room for improvement when it comes to our attacking play. We have just completed a very tricky set of fixtures to start the season, with many games against rivals where we weren't clear favorites to win. I will be interested to see how we approach games in the next month or so when we are expected to win. That was often our downfall last season, even under Tuchel. Players seemed to look less motivated and we dropped a fair few points in those games. If we can find more consistency in these games we should be right there competing for top spot in the league. But we will need to show improvements in our attacking to win these games, and not approach them defensively.

[LongtimerLurker]

8 minutes ago, Argo said:

I'll give him his dues for the first half against Liverpool but the second he was infuriating me, he was walking around while the other 8 outfield players were working their bollax off to maintain a draw.

I wouldn't be so vocal about this if I felt he would be held to account if the big game jitters continued but the early evidence suggests he's going to be unconditionally playing 90 minutes in pretty much every game.

There will simply be some games where the pressing and workrate of Kai, Werner and Mount will be more suitable tactically and it has/will really frustrate me when those games come along and Rom is still playing the full 90 regardless.

As its early I'm going to put it down to him transitioning back to the English game. We all know Conte requires his players to work, no doubt he would have instilled great work ethic in Rom and I'd expect Tuchel has mirrored this.

Perhaps in the Italian game (this is just a guess since I don't watch Serie A but, when I did it was a lot more slower and technical) I'm guessing he didn't have to run as much as he has now and perhaps he's not up to speed just quite yet.

Add in the fact when we played Liverpool 2nd half we were a man down and were required to work even harder out of possesion and Man City pressed us like men possessed I would say these games are more outliers. I think Romelu must understand at a top team you can't just jog all game but, intense spirits will be required. Alternatively this could be his instructions from the coach to save his energy for the counter.