9 hours ago, Deino said:

Personally think the diamond won't be seen in current football. Everyone is too fit and fast to not exploit the space if our fullbacks pushed forward. 

Our midfielders are not enough of a threat for us to be playing a 433 and our wingers are average at best for us to play 4231 or 442.

343 and it's variants suits us too much right now. 

Why do we need to play with back 5? Just watch how our midfield defend without Kante. It is that simple. 

It's quite refreshing to have a manager that quite literally don't give two sh*ts about your name. If you take your chances and perform you get to play (Trev, RLC, Kepa, even Barkley) and if you don't you have to keep fighting until you convince him.

It was always a ridiculous view but several thought he had something against the academy boys last season and now Chalobah & RLC who very few gave a chance to make it here and playing important roles for the current league leaders. Which is great to see.

Don't see why some want formation changes. This formation obviously works very well and it will be even more effective when Reece is fit and we have him on the right with Chilly on the left.

We're top of the table with Kante being injured, Pulisic injured and with Ziyech and Havertz being out of any sort of form. 

City game isn't the reason to change anything. It was by far out worst game since that WBA match. City played their usual game and we just weren't up for it that day. No will and intensity whatsoever. 

1 hour ago, mm24 said:

Don't see why some want formation changes. This formation obviously works very well and it will be even more effective when Reece is fit and we have him on the right with Chilly on the left.

We're top of the table with Kante being injured, Pulisic injured and with Ziyech and Havertz being out of any sort of form. 

City game isn't the reason to change anything. It was by far out worst game since that WBA match. City played their usual game and we just weren't up for it that day. No will and intensity whatsoever. 

We will keep playing in this formation but we have failed to win in the 3 biggest games so far, draw vs Liverpool and losses vs Man City and against a very much weakened Juventus so it's not just the Man City game. At some point as the European champions we should be able to win against our biggest rivals or against the biggest teams but it looked like our tactic wasn't producing enough chances at the biggest level, after all said and done we got some crucial goals from corner-kicks and I think you can add Mount to that list of players being out of form as well.

56 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

We will keep playing in this formation but we have failed to win in the 3 biggest games so far, draw vs Liverpool and losses vs Man City and against a very much weakened Juventus so it's not just the Man City game. At some point as the European champions we should be able to win against our biggest rivals or against the biggest teams but it looked like our tactic wasn't producing enough chances at the biggest level, after all said and done we got some crucial goals from corner-kicks and I think you can add Mount to that list of players being out of form as well.

Yes and we were a better side in that Pool match before James got sent off. 

In City and Juventus matches we lacked intensity and that doesn't have anything to do with formation. 

38 minutes ago, mm24 said:

Yes and we were a better side in that Pool match before James got sent off. 

In City and Juventus matches we lacked intensity and that doesn't have anything to do with formation. 

Interesting how we lack intensity as soon as a good team comes along, just saying.

Top of the league and we’ve already played Liverpool, Tottenham, City and Arsenal.

Good stuff.

46 minutes ago, dansubrosa said:

Top of the league and we’ve already played Liverpool, Tottenham, City and Arsenal.

Good stuff.

More importantly we've actually had a similar fixture run to the champions. Both teams have faced Liverpool, Arsenal,Spurs, Southampton and each other. Yet we are 2 points better off.

 

On another note there is no doubt Tuchel is doing a stellar job but, we can still question the system and tactics as fans when there are issues with them.

The way we played against Southampton in the first half is all we have been asking from the players since we started using this system again.

When opponents use a highline we must exploit it with quick decisive play. However, when we play vs a deep block its even more paramount we play quickly.

Too many of our players are too slow to release the ball and that isn't down to Tuchel as you can see he wants them to play with urgency but, if they cannot do it in this system then it is down to him to change it or do something about it. 

 

5 hours ago, mm24 said:

Don't see why some want formation changes. This formation obviously works very well and it will be even more effective when Reece is fit and we have him on the right with Chilly on the left.

We're top of the table with Kante being injured, Pulisic injured and with Ziyech and Havertz being out of any sort of form. 

City game isn't the reason to change anything. It was by far out worst game since that WBA match. City played their usual game and we just weren't up for it that day. No will and intensity whatsoever. 

Though I posted about it, I don’t necessarily want it. Was just wondering if, with RLC and Barkley back in contention, there may be a rationale for it in certain games. I’m inclined to agree with you (and disagree with @Gol15 )that not beating big teams this season has nothing to do with formation and everything to do with the fact that they’re, well, good teams that we don’t have a right to beat every time. After all, we beat said teams many times last season using 3 at the back.

2 hours ago, Dean said:

Though I posted about it, I don’t necessarily want it. Was just wondering if, with RLC and Barkley back in contention, there may be a rationale for it in certain games. I’m inclined to agree with you (and disagree with @Gol15 )that not beating big teams this season has nothing to do with formation and everything to do with the fact that they’re, well, good teams that we don’t have a right to beat every time. After all, we beat said teams many times last season using 3 at the back.

I think our formation is not suited for our attacking players and as time goes on there is evidence for it. Yes last season we managed to win but this is why I said that our current tactic is getting figured out now and we don't seem to have a plan B.

We want to be champions but we can't win against our rivals. The 2 teams that have won the league in the most recent times are Man City and Liverpool and our main rival in the CL group is Juventus, we managed to take 1 point in 3 direct games against those rivals and that 1 point we gained after a header from a corner kick from Havertz so the only goal we scored against our biggest rivals wasn't even during open play. That's not good enough, we are the European champions.

3 hours ago, dansubrosa said:

Top of the league and we’ve already played Liverpool, Tottenham, City and Arsenal.

Good stuff.

And there’s still some people here that are being negative about our start so far, unreal 😂

53 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I think our formation is not suited for our attacking players and as time goes on there is evidence for it. Yes last season we managed to win but this is why I said that our current tactic is getting figured out now and we don't seem to have a plan B.

We want to be champions but we can't win against our rivals. The 2 teams that have won the league in the most recent times are Man City and Liverpool and our main rival in the CL group is Juventus, we managed to take 1 point in 3 direct games against those rivals and that 1 point we gained after a header from a corner kick from Havertz so the only goal we scored against our biggest rivals wasn't even during open play. That's not good enough, we are the European champions.

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

I think our formation is not suited for our attacking players and as time goes on there is evidence for it. Yes last season we managed to win but this is why I said that our current tactic is getting figured out now and we don't seem to have a plan B.

We want to be champions but we can't win against our rivals. The 2 teams that have won the league in the most recent times are Man City and Liverpool and our main rival in the CL group is Juventus, we managed to take 1 point in 3 direct games against those rivals and that 1 point we gained after a header from a corner kick from Havertz so the only goal we scored against our biggest rivals wasn't even during open play. That's not good enough, we are the European champions.

Fair enough, and decent arguments, but this is a very small sample. 

I think that the problem against City was different from that we had against Juve. Against City the team did not perform up to standard, their energy was lacking all over the pitch and that’s not down to tactics. Against Juve was a different story, we got the same issues that we’ve been having against teams that park the bus and come out on the counter. In this case the issue is formation. The 343, 352 is too defensive and we haven’t got the creativity in the midfielders to break the defences. In addition, Havertz, CHO, Puli, Ziyech are not being played in their best roles. I think that a 4231 or 433 would be suited against these teams that sit deep to defend, we get more attacking, creative players on the field and play them in their best positions to get the best out of them. A 343 limits our attacking potential naive teams.

28 minutes ago, RMH said:

I think that the problem against City was different from that we had against Juve. Against City the team did not perform up to standard, their energy was lacking all over the pitch and that’s not down to tactics. Against Juve was a different story, we got the same issues that we’ve been having against teams that park the bus and come out on the counter. In this case the issue is formation. The 343, 352 is too defensive and we haven’t got the creativity in the midfielders to break the defences. In addition, Havertz, CHO, Puli, Ziyech are not being played in their best roles. I think that a 4231 or 433 would be suited against these teams that sit deep to defend, we get more attacking, creative players on the field and play them in their best positions to get the best out of them. A 343 limits our attacking potential naive teams.

With our current wingback rooster certainly but with the right pair of wingbacks i think it's arguably the best formation to break buses down (our small game record was flawless in the Conte title season). It's why i couldn't understand why people were saying Hakimi was overvalued, he would have been a major gamechanger.

Edited October 4, 20214 yr by Argo

1 hour ago, Munkworth said:

7 minutes ago, Argo said:

With our current wingback rooster certainly but with the right pair of wingbacks i think it's arguably the best formation to break buses down (our small game record was flawless in the Conte title season). It's why i couldn't understand why people were saying Hakimi was overvalued, he would have been a major gamechanger.

And now Hakimi will be locked in Paris for 10 years. What a waste.

51 minutes ago, RMH said:

I think that the problem against City was different from that we had against Juve. Against City the team did not perform up to standard, their energy was lacking all over the pitch and that’s not down to tactics. Against Juve was a different story, we got the same issues that we’ve been having against teams that park the bus and come out on the counter. In this case the issue is formation. The 343, 352 is too defensive and we haven’t got the creativity in the midfielders to break the defences. In addition, Havertz, CHO, Puli, Ziyech are not being played in their best roles. I think that a 4231 or 433 would be suited against these teams that sit deep to defend, we get more attacking, creative players on the field and play them in their best positions to get the best out of them. A 343 limits our attacking potential naive teams.

Yup I agree with how you see our issues in those two games, although:

24 minutes ago, Argo said:

With our current wingback rooster certainly but with the right pair of wingbacks i think it's arguably the best formation to break buses down (our small game record was flawless in the Conte title season). It's why i couldn't understand why people were saying Hakimi was overvalued, he would have been a major gamechanger.

I also agree with this. We don't have have a single wingback that brings the combination of attack ability and athleticism to really break sides down. 

Dave and James are better as fullback, so is Chilwell. Alonso is vastly overrated as a wingback imo. His corners are good, his free kicks brilliant but his delivery and link up in general play are poor.

Chilwell and James are athletic enough for the role but their end product needed serious work.

The goal James scored at Arsenal, need to see that far more often, Chilwell needs to bury chances like the one he hit at the keeper in the first half at Saints. Their final balls are too erratic.

19 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

And now Hakimi will be locked in Paris for 10 years. What a waste.

PSG is where you go to make tons of cash for no sporting merit, he made his choice. Hopefully we can find a quality LWB and a quality RWB.

5 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Yup I agree with how you see our issues in those two games, although:

I also agree with this. We don't have have a single wingback that brings the combination of attack ability and athleticism to really break sides down. 

Dave and James are better as fullback, so is Chilwell. Alonso is vastly overrated as a wingback imo. His corners are good, his free kicks brilliant but his delivery and link up in general play are poor.

Chilwell and James are athletic enough for the role but their end product needed serious work.

The goal James scored at Arsenal, need to see that far more often, Chilwell needs to bury chances like the one he hit at the keeper in the first half at Saints. Their final balls are too erratic.

PSG is where you go to make tons of cash for no sporting merit, he made his choice. Hopefully we can find a quality LWB and a quality RWB.

If we're still playing wingbacks next year then activating Livramento's buyback is an absolute must in my opinion. Not sure who we could get on the left, i wouldn't be against working on Chilwell if we have a specialist on the other side. James' full potential lies at RCB in this setup for me.

34 minutes ago, Argo said:

With our current wingback rooster certainly but with the right pair of wingbacks i think it's arguably the best formation to break buses down (our small game record was flawless in the Conte title season). It's why i couldn't understand why people were saying Hakimi was overvalued, he would have been a major gamechanger.

I expect us to adress this next summer, or perhaps even in January, But I agree, someone like Hakimi would have made a major, major difference and it's a shame we couldn't land him.

But it's important to remember we are just at the very start of the "Tuchel-era" if you can call it that. Got off to the best possible start but he's only signed a single player while we are competing against teams that have had the same manager for years and years and who's been able to build over time. We are already a scary side to face for most teams but there is also a lot of room for improvement and I expect us to be a really formidable side in a year or two.

 

48 minutes ago, Argo said:

With our current wingback rooster certainly but with the right pair of wingbacks i think it's arguably the best formation to break buses down (our small game record was flawless in the Conte title season). It's why i couldn't understand why people were saying Hakimi was overvalued, he would have been a major gamechanger.

It could be, but at the moment we have too many defensive players trying to break down the wall. The difference with Conte’s team is that we then had Fabregas with his quality passing range, Hazard dribbling ability disorganising defences and Costa attitude. We also had Pedro in his best form at Chelsea. We had a lot of attacking power too in the wingbacks. With the present squad we can’t stretch too much the defences with Azpi/Reece and Chilly. The only attacking proper wingback is Alonso. In the midfield we haven’t got a Cesc to make passes through the lines, and we haven’t got any dribbler like Hazard to go past defenders at the moment. I’m happy to keep the 343 against top sides, but with the current squad I think a 4231 or 433 would be more effective against defensive teams. Then again, I’m no Tuchel.

20 minutes ago, Argo said:

If we're still playing wingbacks next year then activating Livramento's buyback is an absolute must in my opinion. Not sure who we could get on the left, i wouldn't be against working on Chilwell if we have a specialist on the other side. James' full potential lies at RCB in this setup for me.

Are we in danger of overrating him? He has only just started his professional career. Is he really at that level, level of a Hakimi?

15 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Are we in danger of overrating him? He has only just started his professional career. Is he really at that level, level of a Hakimi?

He's looked very, very good for Southampton so far. Which is very impressive at 18 years of age.

I have no doubt he'll be back here in a couple of years.

Must confess to not being that complimentary on this thread after the Juve match, in hindsight I was more frustrated at the selection of Zyech & Havertz and their subsequent invisible performances tbh. TT redeemed himself with the team chosen on Saturday and he dug those two out in his post match as well. He's proved to us all to zip it if by a longshot we have a couple of poor results again. He's the business and I'm a mug for even doubting that tbh!! 

44 minutes ago, Sindre said:

He's looked very, very good for Southampton so far. Which is very impressive at 18 years of age.

I have no doubt he'll be back here at City in a couple of years.