1 minute ago, mojo said:

I mean who came up with the idea in the first place? 

I think its as simple as McLachlan and his team compiling a list of strikers for Tuchel and since Haaland + Kane were both unattainable they decided on Lukaku, with Marina determining the 100m valuation was acceptable. 

Not sure I know much about this McLachlan bloke but he gave me the impression that you or I could do his job. 

1 hour ago, mojo said:

I mean who came up with the idea in the first place? 

@Argo

1 hour ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I think its as simple as McLachlan and his team compiling a list of strikers for Tuchel and since Haaland + Kane were both unattainable they decided on Lukaku, with Marina determining the 100m valuation was acceptable. 

Not sure I know much about this McLachlan bloke but he gave me the impression that you or I could do his job. 

Tuchel could simply have gone “no thanks, I will go with what we have..”, but kept on banging on in the media that he needed a No 9. IMO the blame lies on Tuchel as he had the final say.

5 minutes ago, ducavis said:

Tuchel could simply have gone “no thanks, I will go with what we have..”, but kept on banging on in the media that he needed a No 9. IMO the blame lies on Tuchel as he had the final say.

I think Tuchel exposed to the whole world how sub par he is in squad building and "talent ID". 

Every transfer window he's had, we've regressed. 

16 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I think Tuchel exposed to the whole world how sub par he is in squad building and "talent ID". 

Every transfer window he's had, we've regressed. 

It's the only thing that stopping him being one of the greatest managers of this era.

The structure we had in his first half season was bonafide elite and the first time we've had a system that could go toe to toe with any team on the planet (even with the old guard we reverted to solid shape and counter against the likes of Barcelona and even Arsenal).

5 minutes ago, Argo said:

It's the only thing that stopping him being one of the greatest managers of this era.

The structure we had in his first half season was bonafide elite and the first time we've had a system that could go toe to toe with any team on the planet (even with the old guard we reverted to solid shape and counter against the likes of Barcelona and even Arsenal).

Bar the Lukaku debacle, Tuchel going into the 2022/23 season thinking our midfield was completely fine will forever baffle me.  How a champions league winning manager could come to that conclusion is a genuine mystery. And to think Gallagher, with all his technical flaws, would work in a double pivot in a possession minded side. 

 

2 hours ago, Kev56 said:

A bit above my understanding of contracts. So if he refused to come back, we could a- terminate his contract. b- fine him. Or c- my option, terminate him.

 

I Like The Sound Of Option C, However Let's Put It To A Vote

1 hour ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Bar the Lukaku debacle, Tuchel going into the 2022/23 season thinking our midfield was completely fine will forever baffle me.  How a champions league winning manager could come to that conclusion is a genuine mystery. And to think Gallagher, with all his technical flaws, would work in a double pivot in a possession minded side. 

 

Do we truly know this? We saw many seasons at Chelsea especially after FFP where the board were tight with cash. 

We saw a clear decline in Cesc Fabregas's legs during Jose's 2nd season, yet we signed barely anybody after winning the title. We signed a defender who was Championship level and Pedro last minute as a panic buy. Same with Ancelotti during 2010, all of our prime players were 30+ and all we did was sign Ramires and Yossi Benayoun while letting go of much better players before then in Deco, Carvalho, and Ballack. 

Everyone knows I have a lot of love for Tuchel, but I think many are quick to blame him as the sole reason for all the transfers that went on. The truth is nobody really knows, for all we know Tuchel had very little say in Lukaku and wanted someone else completely. 

3 minutes ago, Victor90 said:

Do we truly know this? We saw many seasons at Chelsea especially after FFP where the board were tight with cash. 

We saw a clear decline in Cesc Fabregas's legs during Jose's 2nd season, yet we signed barely anybody after winning the title. We signed a defender who was Championship level and Pedro last minute as a panic buy. Same with Ancelotti during 2010, all of our prime players were 30+ and all we did was sign Ramires and Yossi Benayoun while letting go of much better players before then in Deco, Carvalho, and Ballack. 

Everyone knows I have a lot of love for Tuchel, but I think many are quick to blame him as the sole reason for all the transfers that went on. The truth is nobody really knows, for all we know Tuchel had very little say in Lukaku and wanted someone else completely. 

He was absolutely beaming in the first press conference after signing Lukaku.

While I do genuinely believe he made serious effort to tone down his 'toxic' side going from what we saw/was reported at Dortmund/Paris to suddenly turning into a willing puppet is just too big a stretch in my eyes.

6 minutes ago, Victor90 said:

Do we truly know this? We saw many seasons at Chelsea especially after FFP where the board were tight with cash. 

We saw a clear decline in Cesc Fabregas's legs during Jose's 2nd season, yet we signed barely anybody after winning the title. We signed a defender who was Championship level and Pedro last minute as a panic buy. Same with Ancelotti during 2010, all of our prime players were 30+ and all we did was sign Ramires and Yossi Benayoun while letting go of much better players before then in Deco, Carvalho, and Ballack. 

Everyone knows I have a lot of love for Tuchel, but I think many are quick to blame him as the sole reason for all the transfers that went on. The truth is nobody really knows, for all we know Tuchel had very little say in Lukaku and wanted someone else completely. 

He's had three windows and failed to assess it. I find it hard to believe the club went over his head in strengthening other areas whilst ignoring the midfield. We even had a free shot in getting Tchouameni yet Tuchel opted to utilize the funds for Lukaku whilst believing Saul would be a good loan option. The following season Tuchel smoked some of Jamaica's finest herbs and decided Gallagher would be a good option in the pivot for a possession based side and publicly went on record throughout preseason "I am happy with my midfield", only for us to take a thumping against Leeds where he finally made a panic loan for Zakaria. 

Regarding Ancellotti, it was Ancelotti that decided on having a smaller squad and relying on an ageing midfield after quite literally milking every last ounce of quality they had left that 2010 season. 

Managers get far, far too much protection for their flaws. No one really knows is a cop out. 

15 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

He's had three windows and failed to assess it. I find it hard to believe the club went over his head in strengthening other areas whilst ignoring the midfield. We even had a free shot in getting Tchouameni yet Tuchel opted to utilize the funds for Lukaku whilst believing Saul would be a good loan option. The following season Tuchel smoked some of Jamaica's finest herbs and decided Gallagher would be a good option in the pivot for a possession based side and publicly went on record throughout preseason "I am happy with my midfield", only for us to take a thumping against Leeds where he finally made a panic loan for Zakaria. 

Regarding Ancellotti, it was Ancelotti that decided on having a smaller squad and relying on an ageing midfield after quite literally milking every last ounce of quality they had left that 2010 season. 

Managers get far, far too much protection for their flaws. No one really knows is a cop out. 

I don't find it hard to believe, we did this many times.

Two seasons under Jose and Ancelotti after winning the title. You could say we did the same for Conte after winning the title, only that time we went reverse, spent a lot of money on bang average players. The Conte example isn't the same thing granted, because we did actually cave to his demands, but albeit, the club made a mistake. 

Another time was when we signed AVB, a manager who wanted to play a high line with fast-paced attacking football and we had a squad full of old players. And we barely got him anyone. I think in hindsight it's a good thing AVB got the sack but I don't think he stood a chance anyway, we never made his job any easier, he downgraded from the players he had at Porto. 

I can well and truly believe the board would think it's okay to not sign any midfielders and spend all of our budget on an overrated striker. Our track history of transfer windows has been piss poor, some really good ones but some bloody awful ones as well. 

Edited July 11, 20233 yr by Victor90

47 minutes ago, Argo said:

He was absolutely beaming in the first press conference after signing Lukaku.

What else is he supposed to do ? 

Any reaction he makes surely has to be positive, or he risks destroying the confidence of a new signing, plus gives the media ammunition for an absolute field day. Marina the one who signed off on £97M transfer fee and £325K a week ... TT asked the board for an elite striker and Haaland wasn't interested. The only other one available was Lukaku. So the board got him on board, and I'm sure everyone was expecting the 92kg Conte beast and not the 105kg lump that actually showed up ...

Hindsight is a wonderful thing of course, but even overweight, Lukaku did actually make a decent start with us. then got injured and did his daft interview. Damage limitation after that.

An alternative hypothesis on the midfield :  I think it is quite likely that all the reports coming back from Gallagher's loan were very positive that Conor was ready for Chelsea's midfield (even though the second half of his loan was bang average), and quite possible that the medical news on Kante was very positive as well. So Tuchel's probably being told that he has Gallagher and Kante to rely on, and hence the midfield is "fine". 

 

12 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

What else is he supposed to do ? 

Any reaction he makes surely has to be positive, or he risks destroying the confidence of a new signing, plus gives the media ammunition for an absolute field day. Marina the one who signed off on £97M transfer fee and £325K a week ... TT asked the board for an elite striker and Haaland wasn't interested. The only other one available was Lukaku. So the board got him on board, and I'm sure everyone was expecting the 92kg Conte beast and not the 105kg lump that actually showed up ...

Hindsight is a wonderful thing of course, but even overweight, Lukaku did actually make a decent start with us. then got injured and did his daft interview. Damage limitation after that.

An alternative hypothesis on the midfield :  I think it is quite likely that all the reports coming back from Gallagher's loan were very positive that Conor was ready for Chelsea's midfield (even though the second half of his loan was bang average), and quite possible that the medical news on Kante was very positive as well. So Tuchel's probably being told that he has Gallagher and Kante to rely on, and hence the midfield is "fine". 

 

Hindsight isn't even an argument when you consider a lot of us were extremely vocal about this being blatant sabotage at the time. (I remember one member eerily said the day after we signed Lukaku this would be one of the reasons Tuchel get's sacked in 12 months time). 

When you look at both Lukaku and Gallagher and analyze whether or not their qualities would translate to Tuchel's possession based system, it was so evidently clear it wouldn't work. Lukaku is a stagnate striker who's technical qualities make some bottom half strikers look like Dennis Bergkamp, not to mention his ego would create toxicity at the club given he's done this at every f**king club he's been at. Gallagher thrived in a scrappy, counter attacking system at Palace and Tuchel was asking him to play in the most disciplined position in a possession based set up. 
 

Kante and Kovacic barely, f**king barely survived that Nov-March period in the 2021/22 season. Overplayed, stricken with COVID, and congested fixtures on top of it. Add the fact Jorginho still had yet to be upgraded on and was still first name on the team sheet, it was more than evident Tuchel had a flaw in squad building with an overreliance on certain players and an overestimation on others. 

 

23 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Hindsight isn't even an argument when you consider a lot of us were extremely vocal about this being blatant sabotage at the time. (I remember one member eerily said the day after we signed Lukaku this would be one of the reasons Tuchel get's sacked in 12 months time). 

When you look at both Lukaku and Gallagher and analyze whether or not their qualities would translate to Tuchel's possession based system, it was so evidently clear it wouldn't work. Lukaku is a stagnate striker who's technical qualities make some bottom half strikers look like Dennis Bergkamp, not to mention his ego would create toxicity at the club given he's done this at every f**king club he's been at. Gallagher thrived in a scrappy, counter attacking system at Palace and Tuchel was asking him to play in the most disciplined position in a possession based set up. 
 

Kante and Kovacic barely, f**king barely survived that Nov-March period in the 2021/22 season. Overplayed, stricken with COVID, and congested fixtures on top of it. Add the fact Jorginho still had yet to be upgraded on and was still first name on the team sheet, it was more than evident Tuchel had a flaw in squad building with an overreliance on certain players and an overestimation on others. 

 

Indeed, it was a terrible window, and the midfield has been in a severe need of an upgrade for years. Especially with how terribly we've been playing possession football lately.

But that season isn't unique to any of the other seasons under Abramovich. That's the point I'm making. Actually, whenever we have an amazing season and win something big, we seem to always stagnate due to a woeful transfer window. Our last two title wins had very bipolar following seasons. 

The only time we did it right was when we first won the CL in 2012, and even that was two seasons long overdue. 

52 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

What else is he supposed to do ? 

Any reaction he makes surely has to be positive, or he risks destroying the confidence of a new signing, plus gives the media ammunition for an absolute field day. Marina the one who signed off on £97M transfer fee and £325K a week ... TT asked the board for an elite striker and Haaland wasn't interested. The only other one available was Lukaku. So the board got him on board, and I'm sure everyone was expecting the 92kg Conte beast and not the 105kg lump that actually showed up ...

Hindsight is a wonderful thing of course, but even overweight, Lukaku did actually make a decent start with us. then got injured and did his daft interview. Damage limitation after that.

An alternative hypothesis on the midfield :  I think it is quite likely that all the reports coming back from Gallagher's loan were very positive that Conor was ready for Chelsea's midfield (even though the second half of his loan was bang average), and quite possible that the medical news on Kante was very positive as well. So Tuchel's probably being told that he has Gallagher and Kante to rely on, and hence the midfield is "fine". 

 

As @Sconnie Bluesaid it wasn't hindsight, the obvious stylistic mismatch (to what we played upto that point) was clear and obvious at the time and his bad attitude was the biggest open secret in football. If there was no one suitable avaliable we should have waited it out and took the short term pain (that wouldn't have even been a fraction on what Lukaku caused anyway). That has unfortuently proved to be the crucial difference between Tuchel and Klopp on these shores (imagine if Liverpool panic brought CBs and GKs when they were conceding a rate that would make Lampard blush therefore blocking the pathway for Alisson and VVD) because I think TT is superior tactically.

As for what he was suppose to say, there was middle ground between throwing him under a bus and grinning like a Cheshire cat throughout, given Tuchel's history there's not a snowball in hells chance he'd have been that happy if he warned against the signing and they went ahead anyway.

Edited July 11, 20233 yr by Argo

Just now, Victor90 said:

Indeed, it was a terrible window, and the midfield has been in a severe need of an upgrade for years. Especially with how terribly we've been playing possession football lately.

But that season isn't unique to any of the other seasons under Abramovich. That's the point I'm making. Actually, whenever we have an amazing season and win something big, we seem to always stagnate due to a woeful transfer window. Our last two title wins had very bipolar following seasons. 

The only time we did it right was when we first won the CL in 2012, and even that was two seasons long overdue. 

Any my counter to that is even under Mourinho, Conte, and Ancelotti, the managers were at fault for not upgrading the midfield. 

- Ancelotti, as I explained earlier, went on record stating he wanted a smaller squad and to continue to rely on Lampard, Essien, Malouda, and Mikel for the 2010/11 season. 

- Mourinho only wanted Pogba that 2015/16 window, and considering how that relationship turned toxic when both together at United, this would've bad as well. 

- Conte wanted Nainggolan and Tolisso as primary midfield enforcements. Both of which would've been financial disasters (wages+age vs injuries) When he didn't get either, he opted for Drinkwater and Bakayoko, which he's gone on record they were his players. 

 

27 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Hindsight isn't even an argument when you consider a lot of us were extremely vocal about this being blatant sabotage at the time. (I remember one member eerily said the day after we signed Lukaku this would be one of the reasons Tuchel get's sacked in 12 months time). 

When you look at both Lukaku and Gallagher and analyze whether or not their qualities would translate to Tuchel's possession based system, it was so evidently clear it wouldn't work. Lukaku is a stagnate striker who's technical qualities make some bottom half strikers look like Dennis Bergkamp, not to mention his ego would create toxicity at the club given he's done this at every f**king club he's been at.

Lukaku seems to have done OK in Belgium's possession-based system ... 75 goals in 108 appearances, so maybe it isn't as black and white as it seems ?

The big issue is that he never wanted to leave Inter Milan. Our scouting system should have been aware of that. That's no fault on Tuchel for me ...

Tuchel was the coach, not the transfers person. He basically just tried to get the best results he could with whatever he was given as a squad. Did pretty well given all the distractions of the Roman witch hunt and the club being sold. The board just dived for cover and left him alone and exposed to face the media. TT did a superb job, and doubly so with his personal life falling apart concurrently. You're directing your ire at completely the wrong person in my opinion. 

 

I am so fed up of this preconceived notion the recruitment team in the Roman era went completely over the manager's head and bought players the manager didn't have the final verdict for. 

Ridiculous. 

6 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Lukaku seems to have done OK in Belgium's possession-based system ... 75 goals in 108 appearances, so maybe it isn't as black and white as it seems ?

The big issue is that he never wanted to leave Inter Milan. Our scouting system should have been aware of that. That's no fault on Tuchel for me ...

Tuchel was the coach, not the transfers person. He basically just tried to get the best results he could with whatever he was given as a squad. Did pretty well given all the distractions of the Roman witch hunt and the club being sold. The board just dived for cover and left him alone and exposed to face the media. TT did a superb job, and doubly so with his personal life falling apart concurrently. You're directing your ire at completely the wrong person in my opinion. 

 

Do they play a possession based system? Under Martinez it looked like they were trying to build the system around him which is frankly utter lunacy when you have Hazard and De Bruyne.

Either way he still disappeared when it mattered most, in the world cup in 2018 vs France not even Hazard having one of the games of his life was enough to offset it. 

5 minutes ago, Argo said:

Do they play a possession based system? Under Martinez it looked like they were trying to build the system around him which is frankly utter lunacy when you have Hazard and De Bruyne.

Either way he still disappeared when it mattered most, in the world cup in 2018 vs France not even Hazard having one of the games of his life was enough to offset it. 

I looked up a few of their games, and they seemed to have 60-70% possession, so I'd guess they play a possession style. I don't watch Belgium games though, so I might well be wrong, but it makes sense when you have the likes of KDB running your midfield.

Not trying to defend Lukaku in any way here. I just think it is a huge stretch to pin everything about his transfer on Tuchel.

11 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

I looked up a few of their games, and they seemed to have 60-70% possession, so I'd guess they play a possession style. I don't watch Belgium games though, so I might well be wrong, but it makes sense when you have the likes of KDB running your midfield.

Not trying to defend Lukaku in any way here. I just think it is a huge stretch to pin everything about his transfer on Tuchel.

No one did. 

6 hours ago, mojo said:

will we ever know the true person responsible for this scam of the century?

 

6 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Tuchel, McLachlan, and Marina. 

All 3 of which are now gone. 

 

4 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

No one did. 

 

 

What did this line from you mean then ? LOL

 Tuchel opted to utilize the funds for Lukaku 

3 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

What did this line from you mean then ? LOL

 Tuchel opted to utilize the funds for Lukaku 

Because the argument was yet again steering away from any fault being placed on the manager when in reality this was a collective fault, of which Tuchel was a part of. 

This a reoccurring theme from certain fans that have the preconceived notion that only bad signings made in the Roman era were because our recruitment team went over the manager's head. 

3 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Because the argument was yet again steering away from any fault being placed on the manager when in reality this was a collective fault, of which Tuchel was a part of. 

This a reoccurring theme from certain fans that have the preconceived notion that only bad signings made in the Roman era were because our recruitment team went over the manager's head. 

Ah OK, so what you meant to say was "Chelsea opted to utilize the funds for Lukaku ... " ... which certainly reads a bit different !

 

 

14 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Ah OK, so what you meant to say was "Chelsea opted to utilize the funds for Lukaku ... " ... which certainly reads a bit different !

Yes there were three people involved in that. It only takes a little while until someone starts arguing, with zero basis whatsoever, that 2 went over 1's back in getting a player. 

Lukaku is just one example as well. Sterling, Aubameyang, Zakaria, Cucurella, Koulibaly, all have looked to be awful.