1 hour ago, bisright1 said:

Shall we do the for reference jibe again?

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/formtabelle/wettbewerb/GB1?saison_id=2024&min=24&max=38

So he didn’t have us top 2 like you said? And we were actually top 2 before he changed it up?

29 minutes ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

So he didn’t have us top 2 like you said? And we were actually top 2 before he changed it up?

Yes I corrected my error. I'm capable of admitting my mistake.

I said from Feb onwards we were second. Turns out we were 2nd because we played a game more in that time

When you take that game away we were 4th and a point behind 1st.

What did you say we were from Feb onwards?

31 minutes ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

So he didn’t have us top 2 like you said? And we were actually top 2 before he changed it up?

Ah, but those 19 goals we scored in those last 15 games ... they really had me on the edge of my seat !

Super stuff Ralph.

Let's ignore tactic, you want less backward passing, more offense. It is very simple, play more attacking/skillful player.

Cucu - Caicedo - Enzo

3 cb

VS

Enzo - Caicedo - Estevao

3cb

The 2nd lineup will be more attacking because estavao is much better attacker than Cucu. Done.

29 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Let's ignore tactic, you want less backward passing, more offense. It is very simple, play more attacking/skillful player.

Cucu - Caicedo - Enzo

3 cb

VS

Enzo - Caicedo - Estevao

3cb

The 2nd lineup will be more attacking because estavao is much better attacker than Cucu. Done.

The #1 issue we have to fix in attack is the speed of passing. I have no issue with backwards or sideways passing if it is done at a speed that actually makes it more likely to achieve a purpose or a goal. In the absence of a proactive pressing team, the idea of 'baiting' a team just doesn't work. West Ham, pathetic as they are, refused to be 'baited' even at 3-1 down. As I have said before there is a weird paradox in which we pass the ball incredibly slowly at the back, where there is little risk of conceding, leading to a congested box by the time we decide to make quicker passes in the attacking third. Even simple passes between defenders are unnecessarily slowed down.

Instead of this, two similar plays in the last two games come to mind, both involving Estevao; #1 was Neto's missed header from Estevao's cross vs Palace, and #2 was the lead-up to Enzo Fernandez's goal vs West Ham. My question is why aren't we pulling off this sort of play 4 or 5 times a game?

Quick passing and interplay got Estevao in a position where he was running at back-pedalling defenders, instead of the usual set defence. In the Tactics vs Players thread you showed a bunch of screenshots that show just how much space our wide players actually have, but when it takes over a minute for the ball to actually reach them, it is no wonder that attacks break down.

It is undermining the whole attacking strategy because it relies on sub-optimal players - defenders, like Cucurella, Gusto or this whole "CCB" debacle" - to make the play or the line-breaking pass that is necessary for the entire strategy to work. It seems a dumb strategy to solely rely on key contributions from players with very niche skill sets, or players who cannot reliably make that play. It worked against West Ham because we were able to get back into the game, at just the right moment, with a set-piece. Being able to score from set pieces and shift momentum is very important and I'm glad we've got that back, but I think Arsenal over the last two years should be a cautionary tale that you cannot simply rely on that to actually win trophies.

6 hours ago, bisright1 said:

Pointless to go back and forth on this, but the 3rd Feb onwards was the last 15 games. And in those 15 games we got 29 points, villa got 29 points, Liverpool and city got 30.

Not 2nd best because we actually played a game more which was my error when looking at dates. (but for the last 15 we were a hair width from top...some might say we were a Nico jackson meltdown away)

But it's not relegation form

My point, which might be too nuanced for the polarized nature of this forum. Is that not everything bad is Maresca and not everything good is the players. Sometimes Maresca makes bad decisions, sometimes Cole Palmer goes into his shell. Sometimes Bob Sanchez kicks the ball to the other team. Sometimes Enzo Fernandez digs us out of a hole. Sometimes Nico jackson kicks a player and we lose a game. And sometimes Maresca coaches a win.

Since the 3rd Feb we have solidified ourselves for the first time since clearlake took over as a top 4 side. That's as much on Maresca as everyone else.

But as I/we have said - we can accept losses and mistakes - but want to see some progress on the pitch in HOW we play, in a general sense.

Yes mistakes can happen. Yes young players will f**k up. That's part of the journey that they will need to learn from.

Maresca is stifling the players in how we play.

48 minutes ago, SydneyChelsea said:

The #1 issue we have to fix in attack is the speed of passing. I have no issue with backwards or sideways passing if it is done at a speed that actually makes it more likely to achieve a purpose or a goal. In the absence of a proactive pressing team, the idea of 'baiting' a team just doesn't work. West Ham, pathetic as they are, refused to be 'baited' even at 3-1 down. As I have said before there is a weird paradox in which we pass the ball incredibly slowly at the back, where there is little risk of conceding, leading to a congested box by the time we decide to make quicker passes in the attacking third. Even simple passes between defenders are unnecessarily slowed down.

Instead of this, two similar plays in the last two games come to mind, both involving Estevao; #1 was Neto's missed header from Estevao's cross vs Palace, and #2 was the lead-up to Enzo Fernandez's goal vs West Ham. My question is why aren't we pulling off this sort of play 4 or 5 times a game?

Quick passing and interplay got Estevao in a position where he was running at back-pedalling defenders, instead of the usual set defence. In the Tactics vs Players thread you showed a bunch of screenshots that show just how much space our wide players actually have, but when it takes over a minute for the ball to actually reach them, it is no wonder that attacks break down.

It is undermining the whole attacking strategy because it relies on sub-optimal players - defenders, like Cucurella, Gusto or this whole "CCB" debacle" - to make the play or the line-breaking pass that is necessary for the entire strategy to work. It seems a dumb strategy to solely rely on key contributions from players with very niche skill sets, or players who cannot reliably make that play. It worked against West Ham because we were able to get back into the game, at just the right moment, with a set-piece. Being able to score from set pieces and shift momentum is very important and I'm glad we've got that back, but I think Arsenal over the last two years should be a cautionary tale that you cannot simply rely on that to actually win trophies.

It's such a weird approach from the start of a game. Surely you want to get a goal as early as possible? settle the nerves, don't let the opposition relax and feel comfortable. I feel like this slow tempo helps the opposition more than it hurts it. Where it can be used well is when we are 2-0 up. At this point, we have full control, baiting the press will be guaranteed because the opposition has to try and force something to happen. From that position, we just bide our time, and we can turn a 2-0 into a 3-0, 4-0, 5-0 whilst the opposition tires themselves out chasing us.

1 hour ago, Scott Harris said:

It's such a weird approach from the start of a game. Surely you want to get a goal as early as possible? settle the nerves, don't let the opposition relax and feel comfortable. I feel like this slow tempo helps the opposition more than it hurts it. Where it can be used well is when we are 2-0 up. At this point, we have full control, baiting the press will be guaranteed because the opposition has to try and force something to happen. From that position, we just bide our time, and we can turn a 2-0 into a 3-0, 4-0, 5-0 whilst the opposition tires themselves out chasing us.

Exactly, and the PSG game was the archetype for this kind of performance. We can actually be a decent side when going behind against certain opposition, such as vs Wolves (2-6) or last game, but it still relies on us jagging a goal quickly to arrest the momentum. If we don't, we slow down the play terminally.

In fact it's so bad that under Maresca we have just won one EPL game where we haven't scored in the first 40 minutes, vs Man U last season (Cucurella 71') in a game that had no right to be as close as it was. Maresca's tactics mean that if we don't score in the first 20 or so minutes, we are unlikely to win. We've either really got to come even harder out of the gate and make the most of that first 20-30 minutes, or we learn to step on the gas better through the game.

4 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

The #1 issue we have to fix in attack is the speed of passing. I have no issue with backwards or sideways passing if it is done at a speed that actually makes it more likely to achieve a purpose or a goal. In the absence of a proactive pressing team, the idea of 'baiting' a team just doesn't work. West Ham, pathetic as they are, refused to be 'baited' even at 3-1 down. As I have said before there is a weird paradox in which we pass the ball incredibly slowly at the back, where there is little risk of conceding, leading to a congested box by the time we decide to make quicker passes in the attacking third. Even simple passes between defenders are unnecessarily slowed down.

Instead of this, two similar plays in the last two games come to mind, both involving Estevao; #1 was Neto's missed header from Estevao's cross vs Palace, and #2 was the lead-up to Enzo Fernandez's goal vs West Ham. My question is why aren't we pulling off this sort of play 4 or 5 times a game?

Quick passing and interplay got Estevao in a position where he was running at back-pedalling defenders, instead of the usual set defence. In the Tactics vs Players thread you showed a bunch of screenshots that show just how much space our wide players actually have, but when it takes over a minute for the ball to actually reach them, it is no wonder that attacks break down.

It is undermining the whole attacking strategy because it relies on sub-optimal players - defenders, like Cucurella, Gusto or this whole "CCB" debacle" - to make the play or the line-breaking pass that is necessary for the entire strategy to work. It seems a dumb strategy to solely rely on key contributions from players with very niche skill sets, or players who cannot reliably make that play. It worked against West Ham because we were able to get back into the game, at just the right moment, with a set-piece. Being able to score from set pieces and shift momentum is very important and I'm glad we've got that back, but I think Arsenal over the last two years should be a cautionary tale that you cannot simply rely on that to actually win trophies.

Moving the ball fast at times is important because you want to move the ball before opp close the gap especially vs good opp.

Not sure this is true vs west ham. West Ham was just terrible defensively. That Enzo goal, the ball from Chalobah to estevao was very underhit but estevao was free. 😵‍💫😵‍💫

47 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Moving the ball fast at times is important because you want to move the ball before opp close the gap especially vs good opp.

Not sure this is true vs west ham. West Ham was just terrible defensively. That Enzo goal, the ball from Chalobah to estevao was very underhit but estevao was free. 😵‍💫😵‍💫

In that instance the underhit pass made the goal easier because of Estevao's speed, initiative and intent. The underhit pass made the opposition start to commit, meaning it was easy for the pace and initiative from Estevao to gain us that half a yard and to put them on the back. From that point on they were always behind the play because we continued with the same intensity throughout that move.

5 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

But as I/we have said - we can accept losses and mistakes - but want to see some progress on the pitch in HOW we play, in a general sense.

Yes mistakes can happen. Yes young players will f**k up. That's part of the journey that they will need to learn from.

Maresca is stifling the players in how we play.

Yes

Yes

I don't know how anyone can know that. That's my argument. Maresca might not be motivating the players right, but I've not seen evidence he wants them to play in a boring style.

You even spun the line Palmer said in an interview that Maresca had set them out to pass sideways. Which didn't happen.

There is a mass delirium with Chelsea fans that the manager is always the issue. Unless it's Jackson.

Edited August 25, 2025Aug 25 by bisright1

9 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

Yes

Yes

I don't know how anyone can know that. That's my argument. Maresca might not be motivating the players right, but I've not seen evidence he wants them to play in a boring style.

You even spun the line Palmer said in an interview that Maresca had set them out to pass sideways. Which didn't happen.

There is a mass delirium with Chelsea fans that the manager is always the issue. Unless it's Jackson.

He is the manager!

We play slow stagnant football most of the time.

It is either:

a) because he is instructing the players to play in a slow, uninventive and unprogressive way…

Or

B) he tells the players to play fast, ambitious and progressive football, but the players stick 2 fingers up to him and go against his instructions…. And yet he STILL selects those players who ignore him.

One of those 2 scenarios must be true….

I know where my money is.

10 hours ago, bisright1 said:

Yes I corrected my error. I'm capable of admitting my mistake.

I said from Feb onwards we were second. Turns out we were 2nd because we played a game more in that time

When you take that game away we were 4th and a point behind 1st.

What did you say we were from Feb onwards?

I'm not sure, what did i say we were from Feb onwards? Its disingenuous to just include only Feb onwards though when the changes started after the Everton game in December and his comments to the media about not being good enough for a title fight. Before both of those things, we were actually second. Not second by a point, or because we'd played an extra game over a certain period. 2nd.

The fact he almost f**ked up the conference league final against an F tier opposition playing his usual style was the biggest warning sign. Losing a single game in that tournament is embarrassing enough.

2 hours ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

I'm not sure, what did i say we were from Feb onwards? Its disingenuous to just include only Feb onwards though when the changes started after the Everton game in December and his comments to the media about not being good enough for a title fight. Before both of those things, we were actually second. Not second by a point, or because we'd played an extra game over a certain period. 2nd.

"In the last 15 games we would have finished 6th, the same as where Poch had us. City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Villa and Brighton (lol) would have been above us"

That's what you said. In reference to us talking about Feb onwards. And that was incorrect.

Yes Maresca was at fault for December and January. He made the same f up Jose did with his little horses. It set us back. He became too conservative and should have played on the energy of our youth.

But I think from Feb onwards he steadied the ship, got us playing solid football with a structure and we became more consistent at the back. Despite Jackson turning into a liability and the team failing to convert the chances Palmer created. It might have seemed boring but 29 points in the last 15 league games is nothing to be sniffed at, and with it we won two trophies.

I have always felt the best managers steady things in their first season, and turn it on in their second. This is the year to see it. No excuses.

But honestly, if we win the league playing football half the people on here hate. Ill still be celebrating.

Edited August 25, 2025Aug 25 by bisright1

2 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

He is the manager!

We play slow stagnant football most of the time.

It is either:

a) because he is instructing the players to play in a slow, uninventive and unprogressive way…

Or

B) he tells the players to play fast, ambitious and progressive football, but the players stick 2 fingers up to him and go against his instructions…. And yet he STILL selects those players who ignore him.

One of those 2 scenarios must be true….

I know where my money is.

I don't want him asking the players to play either style. I wouldn't trust our defence not to be ripped apart with B.

I want what we saw against PSG. Solid, structure, foundations and look for moments of magic in the final 3rd.

2 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

He is the manager!

We play slow stagnant football most of the time.

It is either:

a) because he is instructing the players to play in a slow, uninventive and unprogressive way

It is obvious, because this isn't even the first time he's had this issue. He finds himself in the same circumstances as what happened at Leicester. Slow, uninventive football, peaking in the middle of the season, unable to see off teams who are happy to settle for a result.

I believe that Maresca is potentially a good coach but he is yet to solve this problem. I am worried he believes in his own hubris too much to see the problem much less solve it.

Think at the very least Maresca should finally acknowledge the damage this team can do when it plays directly from the back. Especially against these defensive sides.

Delap/Pedro have to play against these sides. Our new Didier and Ediur

The thing we have struggled with the most is balance. We rarely get the balance right. Always either too negative and defensive/risk averse, or too open and shaky defensively.

Its been like it for years. Poch and Lamps were too shaky defensively, whilst not scoring enough. TT was strong defensively, but we struggled to create chances (leading to the not clinical enough mantra that he adopted when we failed to score our 1 chance).

As most Italian Managers I think Enzo prefers to allow 0 goals in rather than score and be exposed. No player loves to be exposed all the time. Players want to win and enjoy doing so.

I think players generally like Enzo and his style because its led them to 2 trophies. I also feel the atmosphere inside the squad is very good. Mainly because the lads are all young so they have a lot in common but also how Enzo has made the place.

Again I agree we are not the most exciting side in the Prem purely on play style but otherwise probably easily top 5. We have such wealth in talent.

I am sure this side could go at opponents with more pace and excitement but that is where you lose the balance and sacrifice the result. We saw that under Poch. Even Liverpool sacrificed the result against Palace by being exposed all game.

For that football we need another coach.

1 hour ago, bisright1 said:

"In the last 15 games we would have finished 6th, the same as where Poch had us. City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Villa and Brighton (lol) would have been above us"

That's what you said. In reference to us talking about Feb onwards. And that was incorrect.

Yes Maresca was at fault for December and January. He made the same f up Jose did with his little horses. It set us back. He became too conservative and should have played on the energy of our youth.

But I think from Feb onwards he steadied the ship, got us playing solid football with a structure and we became more consistent at the back. Despite Jackson turning into a liability and the team failing to convert the chances Palmer created. It might have seemed boring but 29 points in the last 15 league games is nothing to be sniffed at, and with it we won two trophies.

I have always felt the best managers steady things in their first season, and turn it on in their second. This is the year to see it. No excuses.

But honestly, if we win the league playing football half the people on here hate. Ill still be celebrating.

What I said though was right, in the last 15 games we would have been 6th?

Why are you just conveniently ignoring the fact that we were 2nd up until the end of December before he started tinkering?

These two trophies you reference, are basically celebrating a single game against PSG. Glad we won them, but let’s not act like we won the league or something. The conference league was a formality which even West Ham won unbeaten and outside the PSG game (great management btw, so that more often), we got there due to a Brazilian team humiliating us and securing the easiest run.

Edited August 25, 2025Aug 25 by Ukraine Bolt

I think the easy solution here is, if anyone has any ‘neutral’ mates ask them if they’d choose to tune in and watch us. I imagine most wouldn’t.

It isn’t a sole Enzo problem, football has been devolving into this micromanaged mess ever since Peps Barcelona.

The issue with Enzo is the players at his disposal aren’t being utilised to the best of their ability, outside of Cucu.

Cole Palmer who is our best player (for now until Estevao hits final form) has regressed and looks a shadow in this system.

For me the sign of a great/elite coach is identifying the squads strength and building around that as opposed to putting round pegs in squads holes for the ‘good of the system’.

He’s earned this season off the CWC to show what he’s capable of, however if we are to have another season ending slump and play that turgid football again we should 100% move on.

16 minutes ago, The Boehly Babes said:

I think the easy solution here is, if anyone has any ‘neutral’ mates ask them if they’d choose to tune in and watch us. I imagine most wouldn’t.

It isn’t a sole Enzo problem, football has been devolving into this micromanaged mess ever since Peps Barcelona.

The issue with Enzo is the players at his disposal aren’t being utilised to the best of their ability, outside of Cucu.

Cole Palmer who is our best player (for now until Estevao hits final form) has regressed and looks a shadow in this system.

For me the sign of a great/elite coach is identifying the squads strength and building around that as opposed to putting round pegs in squads holes for the ‘good of the system’.

He’s earned this season off the CWC to show what he’s capable of, however if we are to have another season ending slump and play that turgid football again we should 100% move on.

All 3 CBs thrive off this system tbh. Fofana too if the man could stay fit. Colwill turned into the best U23 CB on the planet after being a f**king makeshift LB the season prior. Tosin and Chalobah have been leading by example and in this set up Acheampong is able to do his role very well despite being an auxiliary RB/CB.

I'm firmly in the belief that Delap, Pedro, Estevao, Santos, Essugo, and even Simons/Garnacho adds far too much quality in the side where the excuse of being stumbled by low blocks or organized sides cannot be used anymore.

Yeah we all like to see us move the ball quicker but so many people are caught up with how we play. I couldn't give a f**k if it both gets us results and its sustainable.

4 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I'm firmly in the belief that Delap, Pedro, Estevao, Santos, Essugo, and even Simons/Garnacho adds far too much quality in the side where the excuse of being stumbled by low blocks or organized sides cannot be used anymore.

Gittens. Already the forgotten man.

2 hours ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

What I said though was right, in the last 15 games we would have been 6th?

Why are you just conveniently ignoring the fact that we were 2nd up until the end of December before he started tinkering?

These two trophies you reference, are basically celebrating a single game against PSG. Glad we won them, but let’s not act like we won the league or something. The conference league was a formality which even West Ham won unbeaten and outside the PSG game (great management btw, so that more often), we got there due to a Brazilian team humiliating us and securing the easiest run.

I'm a bit worried about you

1. That's a screenshot of the last 16 games. It says 16 which is a clue

2. I haven't missed that. I've clearly said he f**ked up like how Jose did with the little horses

3. I celebrate Chelsea winning trophies. I'm not in the business of slagging them off.

Let's leave this now. You have no intention of a discussion

Edited August 25, 2025Aug 25 by bisright1