Christ on a bike, how painful was that to watch?

 

 

Two 3rd rate international teams, with 3rd rate managers, with 3rd rate tactics, playing 3rd rate football, in a 3rd rate stadium, with a 3rd rate referee.

 

 

The english national football team is slowly dying and only a deep, cutting, genuine revolution can possibly revive it. Unfortunately it won't happen because there isn't the will and accord from EPL clubs and the backbone, determination and vision from the FA to make it happen. So like a long suffering animal it would probably be best to shoot it and put it out of its misery.

 

OK let me put my tin hat on because now I get really controversial.

 

I love Mr Frank Lampard. I love his committment to the cause and his passion for his country. Of course we all know not many England international players have that nowadays. And whilst I congratulate him on the achievement of 100 caps, I sincerely hopes he never plays another full England game ever again. For Frank needs to go if there is to be a real revolution to save the Engerland national football team. As does Gerrard. As does Ashley Cole. As does Woy Hodgson. As well as our Dad's Army we also have far too many players that flatter to deceive such as Theo Walcott. Theo needs to have a testicle implant because it appears that, however long we wait, he isn't ever going to grow a pair. And players like James Milner and Ricky Lambert shouldn't be let anywhere near an international airport let alone an international football team.

Not sure dropping everyone is the immediate answer! Doesn't help that hodgson is so negative...looked like frank and rest of midfield were told to stay back rather than show any attacking intent...biggest frustration for me is that they always play with so much fear and don't just pass the ball...the lack of movement doesn't help

I always have a slight issue with those that say the older players shouldn't be playing any more. That's okay in itself but then anyone different that get a game is the slated for just not being good enough.

We aren't good enough and we're not going to turn that round anytime soon. We should just go kamakazi, go out every game and just try to score loads. We'll get beat plenty but at least it would be entertaining.

think about it we lose capello who had the best qualifying ever and replace him with hodgson???? then to add insult to injury we appoint gareth southgate for under 21s. So were trusting gareth southgate to bring on our next generation of world beaters enough said.

Games like tonight make me thankful my Dad is Italian and my Mum is English, had it been the other way round I more than likely would be supporting England. 

 

Saying that it's not as if I've not had to sit though dreary Italy games, luckily Prandelli has made us brilliant to watch usually.

Edited September 10, 201312 yr by timetowaste

Knew I would get a response from you Brit and Barn, because like me you still care about our national team.

 

I wouldn't drop everyone. Cahill stays. Walker stays, (and fu*ck me he was woeful tonight). Wilshere stays and plays every game when fit. But the old guard do need to go.

 

Yes, I am arguing we have to bring in players that are not as experienced, not as proven, perhaps even, arguably, not as good. But we desparately need to instill a new mentality, a vibrancy to bring some fearlessness and joie de vivre to playing in an England shirt. And whilst Lamps, Gerrard, Cole, JT or any of the old tired and aging faces cannot give us that, I do believe we can produce young players that will.

 

But that alone is not enough. Those players have to be moulded, trusted and inspired by a manager with a belief in a system and a plan aimed at achieving it. That manager isn't Woy Hodgson anymore than it was Steve Mclaren. Though I am sure we are all hoping he doesn't succeed, Brendan Rogers is showing the type of management and balls out belief in his methods I am talking about at Liverpoo. We need that type of leadership and vision for England from someone, IMO Glenn Hoddle was the closest we have got for many years.

 

Next, the truly hard part. We need the 100% co-operation of the EPL clubs and their managers. The co-operation to release players for international call-ups no matter what their upcoming fixture list holds. And, crucially and most controversially, we need young english talent to be given a fair opportunity by the top EPL clubs. Personally, I am all for a quota system to ensure that happens because we will not move forward with big steps unless it does. I ask you, if John Terry were coming through our youth system now, do you truly believe he would get the chance to progress and build the career he has had in our 1st team? I am almost certain he wouldn't.

 

And lastly, we need a change in the mentality of the players themselves. Because it appears that playing for your country is no longer perceived by many as the pinnacle of their career. The pride and the passion of representing your nation needs to be restored and that has to come from the players that pull on the shirt.

Edited September 10, 201312 yr by just

I agree with a lot of what you say just...Greg dyke made similar comments last week...problem in this country is most fans, let alone clubs, put prem league before the national team now...only way to improve it is to put rule in place that five-six players in every first team on a Saturday is English, only way players can be given a chance...that way we'd have to play mceachran instead of van ginkel, chalobah instead of Mikel etc...but you know it's just not going to happen...

As for the players, I always think the England coaching job is more about man management than tactics...the players still seem so scared on the ball compared to when playing for their clubs...Robeson, venables and hoddle were the only coaches in my lifetime to get the team playing a passing game...that's why for all his faults, I'd have preferred Harry to get the job than hodgson cos he does tend to get his teams playing without so much fear...hodgson is just turning us into fulham

Christ on a bike, how painful was that to watch?

 

 

At least you didn't have to sit through Austria v Ireland.

....then to add insult to injury we appoint gareth southgate for under 21s. So were trusting gareth southgate to bring on our next generation of world beaters enough said.

 

He has Steve Holland with him so could see some of our lot getting in.

It was just horrible to watch. James Milner playing a full game for England ( again ) worries me so much.

Agree with most point Just...Frank and Gerrard faded badly and we just ended up misplacing a huge % of passes, i Think that is our level, we are with the level with the likes of Ukraine we are not in the same league as Germany, Brazil, Spain etc

However at the end of the day win our home games and we are off to Brazil which was the main point of tonight.

Disagree on Wilshere to me very overrated, I just don't get it, maybe I have not seen him play a lot.

I wonder if you asked English supporters which trophy you would prefer to win between the Champions League or The World Cup,how many would vote for the World Cup?.

It was painful to watch and it felt from the off like we would be happy with the draw...looking for a draw against Ukraine really doesn't inspire much belief in a decent showing in Brazil.

 

I agree with just that the same old faces are not doing us any good and we do need new faces, that said with the tactics even against ordinary opposition being more to not lose than to win, I don't think we can judge too much on tonight's game, likeable enough bloke, Roy looks like a championship manager to me although not as much as Ricky Lambert looks like Donal Macintyre, that said maybe it was Donal there tonight and Ricky was down the Pub.

 

I knew it would be a draw, I just expected us to sit back looking for it and get suckered by Ukraine and have to go all out to equalise.

It wasnt great, but the result was what Hodgson was after so he set up to play a very pragmatic game. I thought only Cahill came out of the game with anything like his reputation intact, Cole was mostly decent after a shaky start, midfield was absolutely appalling, completely bereft of any creativity at all. Again I still dont know what Wilshire`s part is in an england shirt, he just doesnt seem to do anything anywhere. Walker was terrible, didnt know whether to show his winger inside or outside so did both, which was pretty impressive, and made Cahills display look even better as he had to cover him. Hart, what the hell has happened to him. Walcott was summed up by the 3 on 3 break in the 2nd half, just ran straight and erm, did nothing with it at the end.

I won't lie, I didn't watch the game because I just had a feeling it was going to be complete guff.

 

I've mentioned it in another thread, I feel some of the problem stems from players being picked who aren't getting regular first team football for their clubs. 

 

Why is Milner getting called up let alone starting for England when (I believe this is what I read) he's played something like 7 minutes for Manchester City this season?

 

Same goes for Ashley Young, why is he being called up? Agbonlahor has started the season magnificently for Aston Villa and yet is overlooked for player who has looked out of sorts for ages now.

 

Hodgson for clearly to play for a draw last night, so you would think that retaining possession and dominating the midfield would be key, so why, after convincing him to come out of international retirement, is Michael Carrick sitting on the bench for the game when he is easily the best holding player England has?

 

Then you come to likes of Barkley and Sterling getting called up, they've probably played less than 10 games for their respective clubs where they've made a significant contribution but caught up in the hype they are being given senior team call ups when they should be made to learn about international football with the under 21's.

 

Now they've been introduced to the senior squad they may feel the Under 21's is beneath them and that is exactly what Stuart Pearce has alluded to in an interview he has given this week saying that  Oxlade-Chamberlain and Phil Jones refused to play for the England Under 21 squad this summer in the Euro competition. Why shouldn't they play? They've got an opportunity to gain experience in international knock-out competitions that can only benefit them. 

Not so much feedback on this game, but I gave my views regarding England's dismal football of late in the 'Following our Nearest and Dearest Rivals' thread, so I'll do best to just quote myself from there.

 

The problem is that, collectively, the English players do not possess sufficient levels of ball retention to succeed at international level. England have had a great generation of those who excel at long passing and shooting from range (Gerrard, Lampard, Beckham, Barry), but are somewhat lighter at the skills necessary for a strong short game - short passing, nimble feet in tight areas (Scholes and Joe Cole). And the midfield for the last 10-12 years has been based around that group of players above with the weaknesses often exacerbated through the 4-4-2 approach of Capello and Hodgson. Hence why the likes of Algeria in 2010, Germany in 2010, Ukraine in 2012 (twice) have ran rings around them.

 

It's important to make the distinction between the shooting, passing, crossing excellence of Lampard, Gerrard, Rooney and Beckham formerly, with the ball retention skills (short interplay and touch under pressure) possessed most notably by Xavi and Iniesta. This country (and culture) has always been quite good at producing the former, but rarely as consistent at producing the latter. Problems arise when you don't have a reasonable balance between the two elements, either manifesting as a Mexico - all tippy-tappy and no bite - or as an England - all bluster and no fluidity.

 

It's a difference in style rather than a difference in quality because England are no worse at the moment than other countries of similar size - Italy, France, Germany. They simply tend to produce far more players of the former rather than the latter ilk, IMO.

Edited September 11, 201312 yr by Teritus

Some good points but still  no way of addressing the real problem, that we just lack quality in depth (be that at one aspect of the game or many).  I've never bought into the feeling that our top players just don't care about the national team, there are a few but I think they are very few and it seems to stem from club managers instilling the philosophy on players that Internationals just get in the way of the real job - step forward Sir Alex Fergusson.  Consistently there are a few clubs who have managed to get a disappointing number of their players to drop out of internationals at the earliest opportunity.  Another reason for that in my mind is that there's a lack of pride in being English, that goes for life in general and not just football, when people (genuine football lovers) so easily dismiss a game like last nights and don't even bother watching it shows how little pride we have in ourselves and our country.  That's really not an easy problem to solve but a start would be to begin teaching school kids of the many many reasons why they should be proud of England (maybe even starting the day with the national anthem). 

 

Then there's the football side - I could talk for hours on the wrongs of the FA's grass roots initiative, in fact I'm in the process of writing a paper on it I think they've got it so wrong.  But the long and short is that they are not producing players that are good enough.

 

So who do we pick for the next game?  I don't understand why you wouldn't always pick your best players - I wouldn't touch an under 21 player until they're unable to play for the u21's any more, you never know if we start winning at younger levels of the game it might just feed up to the full team at some point.  I think the likes of Lampard and Gerrard et al have been given far too long in an England shirt but until there is someone capable of replacing them I don't see the point. 

Someone mentioned Graby Bangawhore at Villa who when he broke onto the scene looked like he could be a decent player, he's doing really well at the moment but he's almost as far away as Lambert from being an international.  i don't agree with players that are doing well at their clubs necessarily being picked to play for England, some players are up to it and some aren't, you need to be smarter as an England manager than just saying "well he's got 7 out of 10 in the sun for the last 4 weeks so he should be in....".

 

It's painful but there's not 1 answer to this, the whole set-up needs to re-worked (we've been saying the same thing for at least 20 years) and that shows no signs of happening a the moment.

So who do we pick for the next game?  I don't understand why you wouldn't always pick your best players - I wouldn't touch an under 21 player until they're unable to play for the u21's any more, you never know if we start winning at younger levels of the game it might just feed up to the full team at some point.  I think the likes of Lampard and Gerrard et al have been given far too long in an England shirt but until there is someone capable of replacing them I don't see the point. 

Someone mentioned Graby Bangawhore at Villa who when he broke onto the scene looked like he could be a decent player, he's doing really well at the moment but he's almost as far away as Lambert from being an international.  i don't agree with players that are doing well at their clubs necessarily being picked to play for England, some players are up to it and some aren't, you need to be smarter as an England manager than just saying "well he's got 7 out of 10 in the sun for the last 4 weeks so he should be in....".

 

It's painful but there's not 1 answer to this, the whole set-up needs to re-worked (we've been saying the same thing for at least 20 years) and that shows no signs of happening a the moment.

 

It goes beyond that though doesn't it. I understand the point you are making but by not calling up the players who are the most in form it instills a  complacency into those players not playing regularly for their clubs.

 

What does Ashley Young have to do to NOT be called up? He's contributing nothing to United or England and yet gets a free pass. Agbonlahor is playing regularly and playing well, even the defensive side of his game has look good with him tracking back, covering and working hard. 

 

You've said it yourself at the start of your post we have no depth of talent so we are we overlooking those who are playing well? 

 

Rickie Lambert was the highest scoring Englishman in the league last season but if not for injuries to Sturridge and Rooney and the suspension of Wellbeck do you think he would have got a look in? Probably not. 

 

The Lampard/Gerrard partnership doesn't work, we've known that for years now and yet England managers persist with the partnership. For the good of the team you've got to drop one to bring balance to the side but the fear of failure seems to spur the England managers to keep with the tried and tested in all areas of the pitch. 

 

What we're doing clearly is not working and things aren't going to get any better unless you're brave enough to make big decisions. 

Agbonlahor deserves a call up if only for what he did to that nob from One Direction.

It wasnt great, but the result was what Hodgson was after so he set up to play a very pragmatic game. I thought only Cahill came out of the game with anything like his reputation intact, Cole was mostly decent after a shaky start, midfield was absolutely appalling, completely bereft of any creativity at all. Again I still dont know what Wilshire`s part is in an england shirt, he just doesnt seem to do anything anywhere. Walker was terrible, didnt know whether to show his winger inside or outside so did both, which was pretty impressive, and made Cahills display look even better as he had to cover him. Hart, what the hell has happened to him. Walcott was summed up by the 3 on 3 break in the 2nd half, just ran straight and erm, did nothing with it at the end.

 

 

All that spot on although the first part is what always winds me up where England are concerned. It is ALWAYS a case of the result is far more important than the performance. Time after time we have to watch absolutely pathetic displays only to be told that the

0-0, 1-0 whatever....was just what we needed. At some point surely we should be trying to progress football wise or am I missing something here?

So we qualify for another tournament and come that tournament it will be all about getting out of the group stage so again the same old excuse of the result being important so ignore more examples of f**king awful football. Someone needs the balls to draw a line under this NOW. Agree with Just, say goodbye to the Lamps, Gerrards & co who have all had their day International wise. Only a few of the current crop deserve to stay in the frame and let's build for 2018 onwards.

 

That match last night really did make our 0-0 with Utd look positively enthralling!

Edited September 11, 201312 yr by Nibs

As myself and Barn have pointed out in our posts, it is not any single issue that needs to be addressed. It is a myriad of issues that needs to be addressed; the coaching of youngsters at grass roots level, the cream of english talent being given meaningful game time for the top clubs, (a quota system is the only way I can really forsee that happening). Possibly a 3 or 4 week winter break for the EPL where the national squad goes off en-masse for training sessions abroad. EPL clubs being forced to release selected players for the england national team for ALL fixtures, be it at full or u21 level, and heavy fines and points deductions being imposed if they do not. A forced change in the attitude and mindset of some players whereby if they refuse to play at u21 level they automatically recieve a lifetime ban from ever representing their country ever again. The FA appointing an England management panel of 3 or 4 people with complete autonomy and who collectively oversee everything to do with coaching, tactics and team selection at levels, Hoddle and Rednapp would be part of that management team if I had my way.

 

 

Unfortunately, I do not believe there is any chance of this culture change happening and we will continue to stumble on as we are.

England played not to get beat, they should be playing to win matches like these, i think Roy Hodgson is most certainly not the manager we need. I dunno what game he was watching after i watched the press conference after the game. I think it's pretty bad when we have to use players like Milner and Jagielka, although the latter had a good game. Players seem to get picked on names and reputation, and also the club they play for.

I also think we have no hope in Brazil, if we manage to get there.

Edited September 11, 201312 yr by evz

What made me unhappy was having to agree with this tweet from @thisisanfield

 

Is that the rest of the country realising why we didn't want Hodgson as #LFC manager? #hodgsonforengland

 

I know the guy had an injury hit squad and all that and Wiltshire is only half fit, but when the centre backs look your best attacking option something is wrong.

 

I did think Ash had a good game, all things considered

OK let me put my tin hat on because now I get really controversial.

 

I love Mr Frank Lampard. I love his committment to the cause and his passion for his country. Of course we all know not many England international players have that nowadays. And whilst I congratulate him on the achievement of 100 caps, I sincerely hopes he never plays another full England game ever again. For Frank needs to go if there is to be a real revolution to save the Engerland national football team. As does Gerrard. As does Ashley Cole. As does Woy Hodgson. As well as our Dad's Army we also have far too many players that flatter to deceive such as Theo Walcott. Theo needs to have a testicle implant because it appears that, however long we wait, he isn't ever going to grow a pair. And players like James Milner and Ricky Lambert shouldn't be let anywhere near an international airport let alone an international football team.

 

I say let's rely on the new breed.  Wilshire, Walcott, Walker.  If only they hadn't been held back last night by those sh*t old men.

Unusual, you are normally one of the poster I most like reading ES and sarcasm is not usually your thing.

 

Your suggestions and thoughts on what can be done to halt the downward spiral of the England national team are most welcome.