Willians main attribute is he helps our pressing game high up the pitch. In the first half it showed that not only he but Oscar was missing. The second by contrast we pinned them back into their own half and as such with a bit of better fortune we would have gained the 3 pts.

The squad back ups for this position are undoubtedly causing Joe headaches with regards to rotation, Salah simply isn't good enough , Schurrle is inconsistent, thank god for Fabregas being able to play both deep and high up the pitch 

Superbly said, Barak.

 

Yes. For Costa about 5 minutes after coming on against Stoke.

 

 

Massively patronising post. Willian is a tidy player but offers very little in terms of incisiveness. In fact I'd say he's a massively wasteful player given the amount of times he is put into a decent position. If you want to talk about out-balls then singling him out above Ivanovic, Oscar or Fabregas seems a little disingenuous.

 

Obviously people will twist the 'facts' to suit their argument but as it is neither is the whole solution. Willian seems to be playing closer to his full potential and should be commended for that, but his full potential really is nothing special at all either in defence or attack. Schurrle on the other hand is playing way below potential, but on top-form he offers so much more to us. He's a proper match-winner but either the illness or the lack of minutes (less than Luis in the league) seems to have made him take a step back.

 

 

Based on what, exactly? A good World Cup run? Need I remind you the standard of international football is nowhere near that of domestic.

Superbly said, Barak.

 

 

 

Based on what, exactly? A good World Cup run? Need I remind you the standard of international football is nowhere near that of domestic.

 

Based on his better performances for us, but thanks for the reminder Bruce.

Because it retains possession. And the value of retaining possession, keeping the ball, not giving it away, may come after another 4, 5, 6 of those useless, (supposedly?), side ways, backwards passes. FC, you have to take on board football isn't played in one, forward, direction.

Someone in another thread said Willian is a key component in providing the platform on which the likes of Hazard and Costa can dance. I couldn't have explained it that eloquently but it is spot on.

Edited December 28, 201411 yr by just

Some thoughtful posts above. I was surprised that Jose started with Schurrle and not Willian in the first place. Perhaps he felt that Soton would be initially less resolute & disciplined than they were at the start of the game and of course once they took the lead they became even more resolute until such time as we levelled after which we were allowed more space & time on the ball. Either way, I feel that Schurrle was pretty ineffective so the gambit failed. The substitution at halftime wasn't it (?) was an obvious one. I thought Willian certainly gave us more options in the 2nd and played quite well. He is for mine certainly more composed on the ball & positionally more instinctive than Schurrle who I feel is at his best towards the latter stages of matches when defenders are not pressing as much & are tiring.

Because it retains possession. And the value of retaining possession, keeping the ball, not giving it away, may come after another 4, 5, 6 of those useless, (supposedly?), side ways, backwards passes. FC, you have to take on board football isn't played in one, forward, direction.

Someone in another thread said Willian is a key component in providing the platform on which the likes of Hazard and Costa can dance. I couldn't have explained it that eloquently.

 

We don't always have to retain possession though. What Schurrle has is an incisiveness, a directness that cuts through well-organised defences with pace and precision. He's shown that at Stoke, at Fulham, at City and at Burnley. Willian is starting to look like Joe Cole late in his Chelsea career when he became a momentum-killer, slowing our attacks and becoming ponderous on the ball.

 

It's why his workrate is so-often talked up when it's unexceptional in this team, and Schurrle is capable of both pressing teams and tracking back. 

 

It's just a real shame that Schurrle is seemingly still suffering from whatever illness he had earlier in the year.

Yes, because retaining possession is key to the system Jose employs. Based on the Barca model with fast pressing of the ball in all areas of the pitch when we don't have it. If you don't have the ball and retain possession, you can't hurt your opponents. See the Roy Hodgson England model for the polar opposite illustration.

 

Blue Daze, after the relevance of statistics debate a couple of weeks ago, I did decide I would avoid you on here because you really come across as the sort who is not prepared to concede any points whatsoever to an opposing view no matter how obvious and plain the evidence to the contrary may be. And no matter how many people share that opposing view. Your opinion is completely entrenched on Willian, (and Mikel too I believe), and you will give no ground on it. You also always require the last word in any argument you have. As  though that provides a telling superiority, a finality, to the points you make.You accsue me of making a massively patronising last post, and yet your post above to Sydney Chelsea sets a new benchmark for patronising.

Yes, because retaining possession is key to the system Jose employs. Based on the Barca model with fast pressing of the ball in all areas of the pitch when we don't have it. If you don't have the ball and retain possession, you can't hurt your opponents. See the Roy Hodgson England model for the polar opposite illustration.

 

 

High pressing in Jose's system has generally been about turning the ball over in dangerous positions and striking with pace whilst the opposition transitions from defence to attack so we can exploit the spaces left by them, hasn't it? Hasn't the archetypal Jose tactical performance been the demolition of Arsenal?

 

 

Blue Daze, after the relevance of statistics debate a couple of weeks ago, I did decide I would avoid you on here because you really come across as the sort who is not prepared to concede any points whatsoever to an opposing view no matter how obvious and plain the evidence to the contrary may be. And no matter how many people share that opposing view. Your opinion is completely entrenched on Willian, (and Mikel too I believe), and you will give no ground on it. You also always require the last word in any argument you have. As  though that provides a telling superiority, a finality, to the points you make.You accsue me of making a massively patronising last post, and yet your post above to Sydney Chelsea sets a new benchmark for patronising.

 

I'm quite willing to be convinced and the Mikel example illustrates that perfectly - I was not a fan of him but praised him after his recent performances and acknowledged that he could have found himself a new role in this team. I like stats but they aren't the be all, but what I do acknowledge is that one must reassess their views when evidence to the contrary is provided.

 

As for Willian I've seen nothing to change my view as yet but if you feel that way then put me on ignore and I wish you the best.

 

By the way I meant nothing derogatory to SydneyChelsea and Bruce is just a colloquialism that I hope he took in the spirit it was intended. Take care.

Edited December 29, 201411 yr by Blue Daze

Brilliant post Barak. Completely agree.

I would add another crucial asset which is critical to his importance to the team. The angles he provides to team mates in possession. He is nearly always available! He gives them an out ball when sometimes, nothing else is on. Often this enables us to keep the ball moving, keep possession, retain our tempo. By contrast Schurrle may make a movement forward, a run into space, but if that run requires a team mate to play a miracle pass, an eye of the needle pass, which rarely comes off, it is not good movement. It is not great movement, it is not the right option to take for the player with the ball at his feet.

You hardly noticed Schurrle was on the field today and was a major reason why our midfield struggled, and failed, to dominate in the first half. Willian came on and the second period was virtually one way traffic in midfield. I see it, you see it, Jose sees it for sure. Quite a few on here don't and probably, never will.

This is pretty much the way I see it. I actually don't think either player has a long term future as a regular first team player however Willian has much chance than Schurrle because when Willian has a poor game you are half a man down, when Schurrle does you are playing with ten men. Willian, on a poor day, still retains possession reasonably well, plays short balls to Fabregas and Hazard (much like Tiago used to), puts pressure on the opposition when they are in possession and looks to play himself into the game. It doesn't create a huge amount but he still contributes and does what is asked of him.

Schurrle on a poor day disappears like a bottle of malt in Peter o'Toole's house. He may well play a defence splitting pass in the 88th minute that Willian would miss but few decent managers would tolerate such an ineffective contribution long enough for him to still be on the park in the 88th minute. Jose is many ladders, let alone rungs, above decent managers.

Drogba survived his early period at Chelsea his all round contribution made up for a relatively low goal return. Jose rewards that because it is what he asks and expects from his players. Schurrle is not meeting that expectation.

Yes, because retaining possession is key to the system Jose employs. Based on the Barca model with fast pressing of the ball in all areas of the pitch when we don't have it. If you don't have the ball and retain possession, you can't hurt your opponents. See the Roy Hodgson England model for the polar opposite illustration.

 

 

I agree with you in principle.

 

After today's result, great performance though it as, do you not think there's something to be said for "if the opposition pack the box and you can't pass your way through, you cannot score if you do not shoot"?

This is pretty much the way I see it. I actually don't think either player has a long term future as a regular first team player however Willian has much chance than Schurrle because when Willian has a poor game you are half a man down, when Schurrle does you are playing with ten men. Willian, on a poor day, still retains possession reasonably well, plays short balls to Fabregas and Hazard (much like Tiago used to), puts pressure on the opposition when they are in possession and looks to play himself into the game. It doesn't create a huge amount but he still contributes and does what is asked of him.

Schurrle on a poor day disappears like a bottle of malt in Peter o'Toole's house. He may well play a defence splitting pass in the 88th minute that Willian would miss but few decent managers would tolerate such an ineffective contribution long enough for him to still be on the park in the 88th minute. Jose is many ladders, let alone rungs, above decent managers.

Drogba survived his early period at Chelsea his all round contribution made up for a relatively low goal return. Jose rewards that because it is what he asks and expects from his players. Schurrle is not meeting that expectation.

Agree very much with this.

I think schurrle is on borrowed time, I can see us trying to improve right wing in the summer, and if we are successful then I think schurrle will be the one sacrificed.

Some people think retaining possession without scoring is useless, and at times it might be save for one fact: The other team cant score when you have the ball in their half.  If the lads had an effective high pressing/possession game in the first half, that goal Southampton got becomes very very unlikely and that changes 1 point to 3 despite it not causing a direct goal.  Dont get me wrong, I love direct football more that tiki taka crap, but sometimes you just got to go with whats more effective.

 

I think this Chelsea team is a side most capable of beating other top teams by limiting the oppositions goals rather than trying to outscore them. That for me means Willian over Schurrle on their current merits.  Schurrle just doesnt offer enough goals to change that approach, in my opinion.

Lots of posts to reply to so only picking out key points.

 

 

I don't judge Willian purely on goals and assists no but as an attacking player that is obviously something you want to see him contributing which historically he does very little of. 9 times out of 10 with Willian what I see is a player running around a lot, playing short passes but not really looking to take on the responsibility of trying winning a game himself.... Or having poor decision making in key areas/situations when it comes to passes/when to release the ball.

 

Would Jose have hooked Willian, well based on the last few games when Willian has been the worst player on the pitch, then no but for better or worse we all know Jose has his favourites and will play certain players regardless of form or contribution to a match.

 

 

Not insinuating that Schurrle contributed anything to our goal, I've said more than once on here since the game he was sh*t today but I'm failing to see where all this praise for Willian is coming from in a half of football where we didn't even force their keeper into a save? All well and good having more of the ball but what use is that if no one sticks it in the onion bag?

 

So Schurrle's not played a through ball? Okay but have you ever seen Willian hit a trick? Different strengths and weaknesses obviously... I personally, prefer Schurrle's attacking strengths. 

 

Yes the overall performance improved in the 2nd half but it's not exactly the first time that's ever happened with Mourinho in charge is it, regardless of making a change I'm sure he had a few choice words for pretty much the whole team. As for the goal coming down "Schurrle's side" if Cahill doesn't rush into no man's land and Terry doesn't decide to wrongly attempt to play the offside trap then the goal might have been avoided, nothing to do with Schurrle that one, just poor defending. 

 

 

The flip side to this argument is, what point is making yourself available to play ball to feet if all it's going to result in is another sideways pass to nowhere?

 

You need players making runs off of the ball to stretch defenses or else it's much easier as a defense to get into position and create two banks of four and as we saw today for all the pretty passing and possession if the right out ball isn't there then it's all for nothing.

Kalou has scored us a hat trick too, that didnt save his bacon with anyone around here when he dissapeared in the other matches.  How long does a player get to live off that?  Should we have Torres back? He has hit more hat tricks than Costa has.  If you have to use events from past seasons to justify why someone should start halfway through this season, then clearly they've done little to nothing to deserve it this season.  We aren't LFC, we don't need to use history to justify the present.  We needed a winger who can pop in goals last season because we didnt have strikers who could. We dont have that problem anymore thus we dont have to shoe horn in a player because he might offer the odd goal.   Quite frankly if the debate is between Schurrle as a goal scorer vs Willian who seems to make the team play better, then Schurrle doesnt even get near enough goals to sway that.  Its Schurrle, not Robben, not Rues not Ribery.  

 

Not to mention, that if you recall that game vs Fulham, Schurrle was utter crap until he hit that 16 minute hat trick (which, btw, was a hat trick of sublime passes to Schurrle by Hazard, getting Andre the ball behind the defensive line each time.  Passes to me were far more impressive than the goals), just as he was crap in the game he got his last tap in goal.  I mean it was one of the first times ive ever seen a goal scorer viewed as a loser in a match winners/losers by bleacher report which Im not using as my barometer (I rely on what I see myself, not what other write) but it goes to show you how even when Schurrle scores, he is usually otherwise ineffectual on the pitch for the majority of the time he is on it.  When Schurrle has a "good game" what it really is is he had a good 15-20minutes and a piss poor rest of the time.  This is why I think he is best as our super sub, as many other people have mentioned and explained why.  He is great at being direct at times but not great against energized and well organized teams, we've seen this far more than him scoring,

 

And if its taking Schurrle half a season to get over an illness and to regain form then perhaps its him you should be comparing to Joe Cole in his later years and not Willian who has been nothing if not consistent in what he offers.  Not a flash in the pan every half dozen games or so.

 

Sorry if this seems harsh/personal, that is not my intention.

Edited December 29, 201411 yr by Barry Bridges

My argument isn't based purely on goals scored, I'm not sure why that keeps being used as a counter argument against me?

His illness has been a weird one, I don't know why but it effectively wiped 2/3 months off of his season and so we obviously haven't had much football to judge him on this year.

My personal preference is that Schurrle helps stretch defended with his movement off of the ball.

Willian, Hazard and Oscar all like the ball to feet which I feel sometimes makes us look one dimentioinal and narrow in attack, Schurrle gives us more variation and that's what I admire.

To essentially credit Hazard with Schurrle's hat trick does the boy a disservice, it was his intelligent runs that gave Hazard the option to play the through balls which, returning to my earlier point, is something the other three rarely do, those goals probably don't happen without Schurrle on the pitch.

Edited December 29, 201411 yr by ForeverCarefree

Well if your point is purely goals scored, I will concede Schurrle tops that department easily over Willian.  I just think the categories Willian tops Schurrle in are, this season, more important to the team as a whole.  I dont want to take away Schurrles hat trick but if you watch, I think even you will agree those passes are pretty sublime.  The type of stuff we've been orgasming about with Fabregas this season.  Yet, if Schurrle doesnt make those runs and finishes them, I agree the goals dont come THEN because it was Torres where as Costa makes those runs. But these arent goals that Schurrle created out of nowhere or by himself, such as other players have for us.  Hell, I'll put in that hat trick clip of Schurrle in as homage as I've certainly not been the kindest to him in this thread, but please ntoice two things.  On his first goal, Schurrle makes the run past a stagnant Torres and secondly, those passes!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L8iSrBxP-I

 

 sorry I dont know how to attach video directly

 

I agree, I don't want us to become Barca mk 2 where if we cant walk it in, we cant score.  Yet I think, for the start of matches, its more important to just control the game and then if need be, when the opposition is getting a little leggy, you toss on a fresh Schurrle to run at them, especially as we know have multiple players capable of hitting passes to such runners behind the line.

Edited December 29, 201411 yr by Barry Bridges

Fact is shirley is on his way out, way to inconsistent, had half a game to impress against soton, and fact is it was like playing with ten men, jose won't tolerate that, so now he has two bell end wingers. people seem to think he should be in the team because he had a good world cup, f**k that i'm not german, and neither is jose! you are only as good as your last game and shirley played like a girlie,he is weak on the ball and is way to easily dispossesed. the fact that was mentioned he scored against burnley, stoke,  a soon to be relegated fulham says it all !  the impact willian made when he came on was immediate, and anyone who fails to see that must be blind. 

Willian hazard and oscar have been the regulars so far this season. We have scored the most goals and conceded the least. Yes we didn't get enough shots off yesterday, but considering we have created and scored the most goals this season, I don't think it's an area for concern.

Why not just keep willian in the team? He's had a slight dip in form, but for the most part he's been part of what's been a sensatinal start.

I think willian is a steady 7 of 10 player, we control games better when he plays. His skill set seems to be a better mix with his team mates, which is the most important thing. We don't lack goals, so why shoehorn in an out of form schurrle, to replace a steady performer like willian, because schurrle is more of a goal threat.

I am by no means Willians biggest fan, and we over paid for him at 25m, but his price tag is should come into it. Some transfers you win on like Azpiliucuta, some you lose on like torres. We paid what we needed to pay to get him. Doesn't mean every player should perform according to price tag.

Fact is shirley is on his way out, way to inconsistent, had half a game to impress against soton, and fact is it was like playing with ten men, jose won't tolerate that, so now he has two bell end wingers. people seem to think he should be in the team because he had a good world cup, f**k that i'm not german, and neither is jose! you are only as good as your last game and shirley played like a girlie,he is weak on the ball and is way to easily dispossesed. the fact that was mentioned he scored against burnley, stoke,  a soon to be relegated fulham says it all !  the impact willian made when he came on was immediate, and anyone who fails to see that must be blind. 

 

He also scored against Man City but if you're going to call one of the Chelsea players (sorry, make that two) bell ends then there's really no point is there.

 

I think willian is a steady 7 of 10 player, we control games better when he plays. His skill set seems to be a better mix with his team mates, which is the most important thing. We don't lack goals, so why shoehorn in an out of form schurrle, to replace a steady performer like willian, because schurrle is more of a goal threat.

 

 

I think this is pretty much it. Here's the problem...7 out of 10 players won't always be good enough. 

 

To me Willian is very lucky because so many other players in our team carry him and his competition has been ill and off-form. For all the talk of his workrate, it's easy to ignore that every player around him works as hard if not harder. Schurrle may not be the answer but Willian to me isn't especially when we play Oscar in the team as well.

 

I am by no means Willians biggest fan, and we over paid for him at 25m, but his price tag is should come into it. Some transfers you win on like Azpiliucuta, some you lose on like torres. We paid what we needed to pay to get him. Doesn't mean every player should perform according to price tag.

 

Unfortunately price tags go a long way to determining expectation - Dave is a great example of someone who exceeded expectations because he was so cheap, as is Cahill. 

 

Willian being at that price and age places a certain level of expectation on him by no fault of his own, but people will judge him regardless.

I doubt Schürlle is leaving in Jan, did you seriously call two of our players bell ends?

Fact is shirley is on his way out, way to inconsistent, had half a game to impress against soton, and fact is it was like playing with ten men, jose won't tolerate that, so now he has two bell end wingers. people seem to think he should be in the team because he had a good world cup, f**k that i'm not german, and neither is jose! you are only as good as your last game and shirley played like a girlie,he is weak on the ball and is way to easily dispossesed. the fact that was mentioned he scored against burnley, stoke, a soon to be relegated fulham says it all ! the impact willian made when he came on was immediate, and anyone who fails to see that must be blind.

yes, salah and shirley, total wastes of space. i suppose you think they aren't? shirley won't leave in  january but he will go in the summer! 

 

I doubt Schürlle is leaving in Jan, did you seriously call two of our players bell ends?
 

and if willian is overpriced what does that make shirley and salah? at least willian puts a shift in!

and if willian is overpriced what does that make shirley and salah? at least willian puts a shift in!

Really? you're going to keep calling him Shirley? his name is Schurrle. give up with the childish mockery, you sound ridiculous

most of the people at the games call him shirley.

Well..Salah hasn't done well at all, I thought he was good against Sporting, but that's about it. Schürrle is not a waste of space, he has put in some decent performacnes for us, he needs to be much more consistent though, he seems to only really deliver as a sub at the moment. But I would never call one of our players a bell end, one because I support players who play for my team, two because I don't actually use that term.

yes, salah and shirley, total wastes of space. i suppose you think they aren't? shirley won't leave in january but he will go in the summer!

Edited December 29, 201411 yr by JoeyBlue25

Don't patronise me, mr laa dee da gunner graham,about i don't use that term! i do he is, maybe if he had of put in ONE of his deccent performaces saturday we may not have drawn! the best word to describe shirley is insipid!