6 hours ago, Argo said:

The funniest thing about the Kante Vs Jorginho debates is it's inadvertently showing that Kovacic is now the world class untouchable in our midfield.

I think it's all due to the fact that Jorginho is so much disliked first and foremost, people still insist that Jorginho simply shouldn't be playing despite the fact that Lampard basically failed to win games with Kante at the base of the midfield which eventually resulted in him getting sacked.

As soon as the match vs Man United ended came a clown that said something like "Imagine if Jorginho had played this game, thank God we have Kante..." This is despite the fact that just in the previous match we had more control and we actually won against a better team of Atletico Madrid.

So I posted 2 simple tweets and obviously it didn't go well since you know, according some here Jorginho can never ever do anything good for us so the simple statistics that show that Jorginho had 100% tackle success, pressed well and intercepted well will be questioned till death. But it's very simple, we have more possession with Jorginho in comparison to Kante at the base of the midfield, we pass the ball better and he can still have a decent amount of successful tackles, interceptions and successful presses (a clear result of having more possession is also not needing to get into tackles as often).

Kovacic - Jorginho has been our best midfield duo for 2 seasons now, one is seen almost a world class player (if he would just dare to shoot a bit for example) the other one is still constantly being disliked. This biased agenda against Jorginho is one of the saddest things I've seen here on the forum.

6 hours ago, Argo said:

The funniest thing about the Kante Vs Jorginho debates is it's inadvertently showing that Kovacic is now the world class untouchable in our midfield.

Which is one of the reason we are so far behind Man City currently.

5 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I think it's all due to the fact that Jorginho is so much disliked first and foremost, people still insist that Jorginho simply shouldn't be playing despite the fact that Lampard basically failed to win games with Kante at the base of the midfield which eventually resulted in him getting sacked.

99% of what you see as Jorginho hate,..... is actually Gol15 stick poking.

9 minutes ago, coco said:

99% of what you see as Jorginho hate,..... is actually Gol15 stick poking.

Many a true word spoken in jest.

@Gol15, bit of a truce here - no name calling etc. I don't hate Jorginho. He wouldn't be in my preferred starting 11 as I think his game has too many weaknesses, BUT I do still think he is a good squad player. I have seen him have a number of good performances and at times, the Jorginho / Kovacic combination does work well. I honestly think that the only reason he gets the amount of stick he does is because you come on and post so many stats about how great he is and what he did during a game. You're discrediting other forum members by assuming they don't know about football. We all see things differently and form different opinions but 90% of the time agree on who played well and who was not so good and should be subbed etc.

I, and many of us have watched football for years - now 50+ and counting. Stats can be informative and good value but many of us still prefer to form an opinion based on what we see with our own eyes. Sure, stats will give you pass completion, tackles etc but they don't give you everything. Don't think any reasonable person could argue that Jorginho is better at tackling and nicking the ball than Kante. It's what Kante excels at. Sure he does lose the ball as well and miss places passes but the big difference for me and something the stats don't give is how easily opponents go past a player. Kante won't give up and is like a dog with a bone. But players can run at Jorginho, drop a shoulder and skip past him as if he wasn't there and he is so slow, he ain't catching them.

I will make a point of not slagging off Jorginho any more as he iS a valued squad member, But PLEASE don't try and make him out to be something he isn't.

 

Edited March 2, 20215 yr by Nibs

That seems a very fair summary @Nibs

I never got an answer from @Gol15 when I asked if he/she had ever actually been to a top-level football match or not, so I assume not.

1 minute ago, yorkleyblue said:

That seems a very fair summary @Nibs

I never got an answer from @Gol15 when I asked if he/she had ever actually been to a top-level football match or not, so I assume not.

Didn’t we reach the conclusion @Gol15 is Jorginho? There were some stats that lined up with every time he posted during a game you would see Jorginho on his phone with picture evidence to back it up. 

It was very compelling but unfortunately has not been turn in to a graph, pie chart or even venn diagram so won’t be taken seriously...

Just now, Munkworth said:

Didn’t we reach the conclusion @Gol15 is Jorginho?

That's probably true, but has he ever turned up at a top-level football match?

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

It's funny how you all have so much to say but lack the decency to click on the link that shows why the tweet said that Jorginho had a good defensive and good passing game against Atletico. But I guess, the kids with the same old agenda of 3 years will automatically get mindblown as soon as Kante wins 1 ball...

Yes yes pressing is a collective stat but it's only a problem when Jorginho presses correctly, when Kante does it it's just Kante being Kante right?

What are you blabbering about? 

The discussion I was having was about the validity of certain stats and whether some of them that are used can even be quantified in numerical terms. 

I'm not even talking about Jorginho or Kante... 

1 hour ago, coco said:

99% of what you see as Jorginho hate,..... is actually Gol15 stick poking.

Not really. Multiple people offend me and mock me, that is true but their attitude towards Jorginho is the same regardless if I post something positive or negative or nothing at all.

Imagine if I had posted after the win over Atletico something like:"This is why Kante doesn't play, imagine if we didn't have Jorginho passing the ball" the reaction would be just as sad as when I pointed out here a simple tweet but 10 times worse. But you see it's great to have a dig at Alonso and Jorginho right after a 0:0 game when they didn't even play.

The amout of bullsh*t here is too much and it has very little to do with me, too many users just ugly as hell with their toxic posts.

42 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

I never got an answer from @Gol15 when I asked if he/she had ever actually been to a top-level football match or not, so I assume not.

 

49 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

 

Personally I don't  give two f*uks for stats, its just did we win or not ..

40 minutes ago, M.M.B said:

Personally I don't  give two f*uks for stats, its just did we win or not ..

When you go to the pub/home after the game back in the day only two responses we were crap or we played well not I was disappointed because of our xg I expected a comfortable win.

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

The amout of bullsh*t here is too much and it has very little to do with me, too many users just ugly as hell with their toxic posts.

And yet you are mysteriously drawn to us night and day, day after day.

57 minutes ago, M.M.B said:

Personally I don't  give two f*uks for stats, its just did we win or not ..

Wait, you don't discuss our XG of 1.7, and the fact we made 17 happy passes but only 6 sad passes? Thats weird...

15 minutes ago, coco said:

And yet you are mysteriously drawn to us night and day, day after day.

It’s me, I’m such a loveable little scamp people can’t stay away...

3 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

It’s me, I’m such a loveable little scamp people can’t stay away...

Oh it's your fault is it !

13 minutes ago, dkw said:

Wait, you don't discuss our XG of 1.7, and the fact we made 17 happy passes but only 6 sad passes? Thats weird...

I know...😮 it might be because the 1st game I watched on tv was the 67 cup final. I was 9 years old, so maybe its an age thing...🙂

I'm ngl I rate Jorginho, the guy has his limitations but when he plays I feel he brings a sense of calmness to the team. Him and Kova are so trustworthy in possession in our own half its unreal, so press resistant.

Since Jorginho joined we haven't failed to make top 4 could this be a coincidence? Maybe...

I'm still waiting to see if we ever get a 433 with Kova, Jorge and Kante again. In theory they have the right blend to be successful as a unit. If Kova plays like he has been in the double pivot.

We got 433 false 9 once all season and it got scrapped because Andreas got sent off and we didn't go back to it again. Even though we had kept Liverpool relatively quite for that half.

I would like to see Havertz in false 9, Werner as a Lf, Pulisic/Ziyech or CHO as a RW (asymmetric fwd line) Kova/Kante/Jorge mid trio and Ben Andreas Thiago/Rudiger and James back 4. Just once it could be an absolute car crash but I would love to see that starting XI. Ofc the only limitation in personnel is no space for Mount which I guess is why we never saw it again.

 

 

32 minutes ago, coco said:

And yet you are mysteriously drawn to us night and day, day after day.

Clearly I'm the problem. Thanks for letting me know.

I have liked Jorginho in the recent past, he stopped us playing too defensively and kept up the tempo though I'm intrigued to see how Tuchel uses Kante with Kova more. 

Many pundits don't think this combo will work and I'm willing to wait and see.

4 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Since Jorginho joined we haven't failed to make top 4 could this be a coincedence? Maybe.

 

 

Since Kepa joined we haven't failed to make the top 4. Coincidence?

21 minutes ago, just said:

Since Kepa joined we haven't failed to make the top 4. Coincidence?

Haven’t missed while changing managers the past 2 seasons either. NEW MANAGER EVERY YEAR!!!

51 minutes ago, just said:

Since Kepa joined we haven't failed to make the top 4. Coincidence?

I think Kepa and Jorginho are two different cases personally. Kepa under Sarri and Lamps last season were two very different seasons. Jorginho's baseline performances haven't changed that drastically. 'Since Kepa joined we haven't failed to make the top 4 despite his performances' there we go I fixed it for you.

I get that you're probably trolling but come on you can't seriously compare Jorginho to Kepa, one has quite literally dropped us points regularly throughout the last two seasons.

Whilst the other has been 'shown' to have a 'significantly positive' effect on results when he starts. Don't quote me because I'm not 100% certain but aside from the liverpool loss I don't think we lost a game this season Jorginho has started. Does that suggest a cause and effect relationship who knows....

 

Edit we are unbeaten in our last 18 games Jorginho has started as of now. Furthermore of the 3 games that we have failed to win under Tuchel 2 out of 3 of them Jorginho did not start. 

Edited March 3, 20215 yr by LongtimerLurker

6 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I think Kepa and Jorginho are two different cases personally. Kepa under Sarri and Lamps last season were two very different seasons. Jorginho's baseline performances haven't changed that drastically. 'Since Kepa joined we haven't failed to make the top 4 despite his performances' there we go I fixed it for you.

I get that you're probably trolling but come on you can't seriously compare Jorginho to Kepa, one has quite literally dropped us points regularly throughout the last two seasons.

Whilst the other has been 'shown' to have a 'significantly positive' effect on results when he starts. Don't quote me because I'm not 100% certain but aside from the liverpool loss I don't think we lost a game this season Jorginho has started. Does that suggest a cause and effect relationship who knows....

 

Edit we are unbeaten in our last 18 games Jorginho has started as of now. Furthermore of the 3 games that we have failed to win under Tuchel 2 out of 3 of them Jorginho did not start. 

The point I was making was that there are so many variables involved in the results, (quality of opposition, other players selected, injuries etc), that you cannot infer much at all from the presence of one player.

Gol posted a similar thing a short while ago to try and "PROVE' that Jorginho is the sole difference between winning and losing. And for the period of time he chose to use with Jorgi being selected, I showed we also hadn't lost with Emerson in the team!