Can you imagine how things might have gone if Kante hadn't played today and Jorginho had played? Doesn't bare thinking about.

Have to credit TT for recognising that playing Jorginho and Alonso today could have been a disaster.

3 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Can you imagine how things might have gone if Kante hadn't played today and Jorginho had played? Doesn't bare thinking about.

Have to credit TT for recognising that playing Jorginho and Alonso today could have been a disaster.

When a kiddo doesn't take his meds so much imagination takes over it's really sad, I hope you'll feel better tomorrow.

Just now, Gol15 said:

When a kiddo doesn't take his meds so much imagination takes over it's really sad, I hope you'll feel better tomorrow.

,,,,,,,,,,coming from the guy who posts from a padded cell.

The story with kante and jorginho is supposed to be one is more defensive and one is more offensive (I totally disagree with this) but if you watch our game, this is not the case

When jorgi played,do we look better

Offensively ? Nope

Defensively  ? Yup.As we play with back 3 and two flat cm , we can get away of having less protection in midfield. What we do look better at is keeping possesion in our half aka defensive possesion.

With Kante we protect our backline better. Against most team it almost make 3 cb redundant.

Since Tuchel plan is to play back 3 with two flat cm everygame with tons2 of possesion without much penetration,Jorginho is simply more suited. 

Edited March 1, 20215 yr by Bob stark

10 hours ago, Nibs said:

,,,,,,,,,,coming from the guy who posts from a padded cell.

Also coming from a guy who admits he thinks recent performances, such as those against barnsley and Southampton were good!

 

 

Anyone who thinks a 0-0 at home to a team we are 6 points behind and need to catch to get top 4 is a good result is an idiot.

 

VS

 

 

Ouch

Thought he had a great second half. First half he was a problem though.

And so is his passing in general. Yesterday he hit 82% of his passes, compared to Kovacic at 96%.

I think passmaps are interesting because it will show you where a players passes are going. And while Kovacic found Chilwell in front of him regularly, found Kante, Ziyech and Mount it's quite clear that very little comes off Kante. Every line is either sidways or backwards and most of his passes went to Azpi.

So it's a bit of a headache. You really, really want his capabilities at winning the ball but is found lacking on the ball more often than not.

 

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

 

VS

 

 

Ouch

Where is he getting those stats from? WhoScored has him winning one tackle (1/3 successful) and one interception. Neither of those are the highest among the Chelsea players, let alone across both sides. 

They do rank him as having completed the most passes though! 

And how does one quantify an individual press? 

Thought him and Chilwell playing was just what was needed against a pacey United attack. There's no way of saying with certainty, but I just feel with Jorginho and Alonso playing, we could be staring at a narrow loss here.

I love stats in general but they never show the full picture, anyone who watched that game will know the absolute Midfield defensive masterclass Ngolo put in for the 2nd half.

That interception in our box in the last moments of the game after sprinting 50 yards was something no one in our squad can do, the pace and the presence of mind to position himself to make that interception was elite level and the reason we need him against good counter attacking teams.

1 hour ago, PloKoon13 said:

Where is he getting those stats from? WhoScored has him winning one tackle (1/3 successful) and one interception. Neither of those are the highest among the Chelsea players, let alone across both sides. 

They do rank him as having completed the most passes though! 

And how does one quantify an individual press? 

Fbref - much more reliable than whoscored that I stopped going to some time ago. But you can ask there on twitter if you don't believe me...

19 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Fbref - much more reliable than whoscored that I stopped going to some time ago. But you can ask there on twitter if you don't believe me...

In its record for the Atlético game, that site has Jorginho equal-third for tackles, equal-fifth for interceptions and equal-third for 'successful presses'. Top for completed passes though!

Not to mention his tackle/interception numbers are still worse than Kanté's against Man Utd, which is odd considering how you presented it in the post above. 

I don't necessarily think any of this is relevant, and there are a number of reasons why the numbers might be what they are which have nothing to do with the player's quality, it just seems odd that you presented them in such a way considering a blind reading of the stats actually suggest the exact opposite of the point you were trying to make. 

7 minutes ago, PloKoon13 said:

In its record for the Atlético game, that site has Jorginho equal-third for tackles, equal-fifth for interceptions and equal-third for 'successful presses'. Top for completed passes though!

Not to mention his tackle/interception numbers are still worse than Kanté's against Man Utd, which is odd considering how you presented it in the post above. 

I don't necessarily think any of this is relevant, and there are a number of reasons why the numbers might be what they are which have nothing to do with the player's quality, it just seems odd that you presented them in such a way considering a blind reading of the stats actually suggest the exact opposite of the point you were trying to make. 

Think what you already thought before you ever saw that post, makes no difference really...

https://fbref.com/en/matches/70de7028/Atletico-Madrid-Chelsea-February-23-2021-Champions-League

Edited March 1, 20215 yr by Gol15

4 hours ago, Sindre said:

Thought he had a great second half. First half he was a problem though.

And so is his passing in general. Yesterday he hit 82% of his passes, compared to Kovacic at 96%.

I think passmaps are interesting because it will show you where a players passes are going. And while Kovacic found Chilwell in front of him regularly, found Kante, Ziyech and Mount it's quite clear that very little comes off Kante. Every line is either sidways or backwards and most of his passes went to Azpi.

So it's a bit of a headache. You really, really want his capabilities at winning the ball but is found lacking on the ball more often than not.

 

Not sure that is the correct explanation because our build up is more of 4231ish,mout as lw,cho rw ziyech a 10is, azpi and chilwell as rb n lb. You can see kova made tons of passes to chilwell ,same as kante to azpi. Kova barely made any pass to mount same as kante to ziyech or cho

5 hours ago, Gol15 said:

 

VS

 

Ouch

What do these two sets of random, non matching, sets of statistics set out to prove? 

One is showing specific quantities the other is just saying "this person did this the most". It's not a straight comparrision and baiscally worthless. 

1 hour ago, Imran_CFC said:

I love stats in general but they never show the full picture, anyone who watched that game will know the absolute Midfield defensive masterclass Ngolo put in for the 2nd half.

That interception in our box in the last moments of the game after sprinting 50 yards was something no one in our squad can do, the pace and the presence of mind to position himself to make that interception was elite level and the reason we need him against good counter attacking teams.

This is the perfect summary of why Kante had to play on Sunday, and why it proved to be the correct decision. 

33 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

azpi and chilwell as rb n lb

Don't agree. The whole system revolves around the wingbacks playing as wingers when we have the ball.

They do often shift to a back four basically when we defend with Azpi more or less being a RB then, especially when CHO is playing. But offensively it revolves around the wingbacks being wingers. Azpi sometimes overlaps from deep with quite seldom.

1 hour ago, Sindre said:

Don't agree. The whole system revolves around the wingbacks playing as wingers when we have the ball.

They do often shift to a back four basically when we defend with Azpi more or less being a RB then, especially when CHO is playing. But offensively it revolves around the wingbacks being wingers. Azpi sometimes overlaps from deep with quite seldom.

I suggest you go back to watch how we build up against United. It was closer to 4231 ish, with azpi as rb an chilwell higher but still coming back a lot to help with the build up.

 

2 hours ago, PloKoon13 said:

In its record for the Atlético game, that site has Jorginho equal-third for tackles, equal-fifth for interceptions and equal-third for 'successful presses'. Top for completed passes though!

Not to mention his tackle/interception numbers are still worse than Kanté's against Man Utd, which is odd considering how you presented it in the post above. 

I don't necessarily think any of this is relevant, and there are a number of reasons why the numbers might be what they are which have nothing to do with the player's quality, it just seems odd that you presented them in such a way considering a blind reading of the stats actually suggest the exact opposite of the point you were trying to make. 

Plookers, Gol is always very selective with the stats and figures he chooses and if you pick him up on them by quoting other sources he refuses to recognise them and says they're not credible. It's like arguing with a 5 year old.

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

Think what you already thought before you ever saw that post, makes no difference really...

https://fbref.com/en/matches/70de7028/Atletico-Madrid-Chelsea-February-23-2021-Champions-League

I think you've posted a link to a tweet which has either mistakenly interpreted its source or outright lied about it (or you have). Cross-reference the numbers from the link you've just posted against the claims of the quoted tweet. (To take just one example), it's incredibly disingenuous to make out that Jorginho made the most tackles in that game, when there were four other players who made the same or more. Doubly disingenuous to try and spin that as a slight against Kanté when in fact your own stats show his tackling numbers in the Man Utd game to be more than twice as good as that!

On the whole, I am a fan of using statistics as a method of analysing football. I love the idea that there is a way to scientifically interpret these footballing intangibles. I think there can be a lot of really interesting debate around the methodology and the interpretation of them. There can be really interesting discussion as to what is meaningful and what is not, what exactly these ancient, engrained football terms like 'cross' or 'possession' or 'work rate' truly mean. It's of huge epistemological and ontological interest.

Here, you really haven't helped your own credibility in fighting that fight. If you post a link to an interpretation of some stats (from a source you yourself endorse), it should at least reflect the raw data... If you are genuinely interested in making the case that statistics are a useful analytical method (as opposed to perhaps just jumping on literally anything that is positive about 'your guy'), and trying to change the minds of those who are skeptical, then the very least you can do is accurately report the data you endorse.

 

I asked the question above 'how does one quantify an individual press'. What is pressing in a statistical context? And how can one quantify it in a meaningful way? That could be an absolutely fascinating discussion. I suppose my first question about pressing stats would be to ask - how does one separate an individual contribution to what is inherently a collaborative effort?

8 minutes ago, just said:

Plookers, Gol is always very selective with the stats and figures he chooses and if you pick him up on them by quoting other sources he refuses to recognise them and says they're not credible. It's like arguing with a 5 year old.

It's not even that - it seems like a pretty basic expectation that an interpretation should be faithful to its own statistical resource.

Bruno Fernandes let his frustrations get the better of him when he was overheard shouting to the referee "It's always him!" in Manchester United's goalless draw with Chelsea.

 

 

1 hour ago, PloKoon13 said:

I think you've posted a link to a tweet which has either mistakenly interpreted its source or outright lied about it (or you have). Cross-reference the numbers from the link you've just posted against the claims of the quoted tweet. (To take just one example), it's incredibly disingenuous to make out that Jorginho made the most tackles in that game, when there were four other players who made the same or more. Doubly disingenuous to try and spin that as a slight against Kanté when in fact your own stats show his tackling numbers in the Man Utd game to be more than twice as good as that!

On the whole, I am a fan of using statistics as a method of analysing football. I love the idea that there is a way to scientifically interpret these footballing intangibles. I think there can be a lot of really interesting debate around the methodology and the interpretation of them. There can be really interesting discussion as to what is meaningful and what is not, what exactly these ancient, engrained football terms like 'cross' or 'possession' or 'work rate' truly mean. It's of huge epistemological and ontological interest.

Here, you really haven't helped your own credibility in fighting that fight. If you post a link to an interpretation of some stats (from a source you yourself endorse), it should at least reflect the raw data... If you are genuinely interested in making the case that statistics are a useful analytical method (as opposed to perhaps just jumping on literally anything that is positive about 'your guy'), and trying to change the minds of those who are skeptical, then the very least you can do is accurately report the data you endorse.

 

I asked the question above 'how does one quantify an individual press'. What is pressing in a statistical context? And how can one quantify it in a meaningful way? That could be an absolutely fascinating discussion. I suppose my first question about pressing stats would be to ask - how does one separate an individual contribution to what is inherently a collaborative effort?

Did you even consider clicking on the link that I provided? 

2 hours ago, just said:

Plookers, Gol is always very selective with the stats and figures he chooses and if you pick him up on them by quoting other sources he refuses to recognise them and says they're not credible. It's like arguing with a 5 year old.

You're just full of salt and agenda driven 100% of the time, the one website that I openly said multiple times that I don't care about is whoscored... You're never a balanced poster you ALWAYS post against those who you simply dislike. So please, go back to your cave now...