3 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Messi is good in 1 system and in 1 team. Let that sink in.

You don't HAVE to pick an extreme view you know 🙂 Messi has been a truly remarkable player, has carried a useless Argentina team to multiple finals and has single handedly kept this Barcelona team afloat over a good part of the last decade.

Kante has also been a remarkable player, and has certainly had a greater impact for club and country in the recent past. 

Messi is the only reason Guardiola has multiple Champions League medals.

5 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Messi is good in 1 system and in 1 team. Let that sink in.

Come on you don't believe that, do you? The man has lost a step, but he is still a phenomenal player. And I'm convinced that there's no set-up a prime Messi doesn't fit. I mean look at that combination of technique, dribbling in the tightest spaces, vision, passing (range as well as accuracy), shooting (long distance as well as finishing), link up play, acceleration, end speed, pressing resistance, understanding of the game. On top of that he is a lot stronger physically than he looks, with his low center of gravity he is so hard to to push of the ball. The man is good at everything besides winning headers.

I mean I love Kante as much as every Chelsea fan. What he has done for us, for Leicester and fro France is phenomenal, but prime Messi is possibly the best footballer ever, definetely the best I have ever witnessed. I don't understand how a fan of football can not be in awe of what Messi is capable of.

Edited June 17, 20215 yr by True Blue23

Messi and Ronaldo have been so elite that they have now redefined what world class means. The bench mark is so high but, the point wasn't to compare Kanté to Messi that would be a pointless comparison.

Kanté deserves the ballon d'or as recognition for such a good career in what you could argue is quite a short span of time at least at the elite level.

So when Coco says it's the league titles and the world cup alongside the UCL I have to agree. This imho is just the excuse to give it to him, he had already achieved so much at what point do you look at the guy and say that he's being overlooked as the best footballing athlete on the planet at least recognised specifically for one season.

He's been the best in the world in his position since Leicester won the league. He's been partnered with Danny Drinkwater, Matic, Fabergas, Jorginho, Kovacic, Mount, Gilmour, Pogba, Matuidi and the list goes on.

When all of the aforementioned players look world class next to him you have to start wondering what is the common denominator. Heck the guy even made Barkley look good not to say he's not but you know...

The only thing that makes me think he won't win it is if Lewandowski gets it since he was robbed last season and that I could live with. Unless one player carries his nation to the Euros I don't see any other player more deserving than these two.

If you look at the criteria to win the Ballon d'or over the last 10 or so years its win the UCL or be Messi/CR7. Modric had such a good world cup that he deserved to win (esp with ucl win prior). VVD again as mentioned before deserved to win it imho. Messi was his usual out of this world phenomenal self but, I think winning the UCL, EPL (ending 30 yr wait) and club world cup was merit enough for Virgil.

I always laugh when people use one league/one system as a stick to beat Messi with but will say Fergie is the greatest ever manager due to longevity at one club.

Edited June 17, 20215 yr by Argo

2 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Messi and Ronaldo have been so elite that they have now redefined what world class means. The bench mark is so high but, the point wasn't to compare Kanté to Messi that would be a pointless comparison.

Kanté deserves the ballon d'or as recognition for such a good career in what you could argue is quite a short span of time at least at the elite level.

So when Coco says it's the league titles and the world cup alongside the UCL I have to agree. This imho is just the excuse to give it to him, he had already achieved so much at what point do you look at the guy and say that he's being overlooked as the best footballing athlete on the planet at least recognised specifically for one season.

He's been the best in the world in his position since Leicester won the league. He's been partnered with Danny Drinkwater, Matic, Fabergas, Jorginho, Kovacic, Mount, Gilmour, Pogba, Matuidi and the list goes on.

When all of the aforementioned players look world class next to him you have to start wondering what is the common denominator. Heck the guy even made Barkley look good not to say he's not but you know...

The only thing that makes me think he won't win it is if Lewandowski gets it since he was robbed last season and that I could live with. Unless one player carries his nation to the Euros I don't see any other player more deserving than these two.

If you look at the criteria to win the Ballon d'or over the last 10 or so years its win the UCL or be Messi/CR7. Modric had such a good world cup that he deserved to win (esp with ucl win prior). VVD again as mentioned before deserved to win it imho. Messi was his usual out of this world phenomenal self but, I think winning the UCL, EPL (ending 30 yr wait) and club world cup was merit enough for Virgil.

I agree that Kante (especially if France were to win the EURO) or Lewandowski, who should have gotten it last season and then went on and topped that phenomenal again, should get it this year. I was just replying to that ridicolous "Messi is just good in one system" comment that gets thrown around from time to time (not only here but in general).

2 hours ago, Argo said:

I always laugh when people use one league/one system as a stick to beat Messi with but will say Fergie is the greatest ever manager due to longevity at one club.

Interestingly enough Ferguson said that Messi is only good in 1 system while Ronaldo fits in multiple when asked the question to compare the two, maybe he was biased but this isn't a lie, Messi could only win in one specific setup.

 

22 hours ago, coco said:

Yeah usually the player that performs the best over a season wins it, but if he gets the award we all know he wouldn't of got it without first winning league titles at multiple clubs, along with the WC and EC with France. 

I'm not knocking Tuchels achievement with getting Kante firing again.

Nah the fact that he won wc and pl with Conte and Leicester is kinda irrelevant. 

Balon dor award is usually given to last winner of big tournament + cl. If there is no standout performer then you just vote based on your criteria aka media exposure. 

Edited June 18, 20215 yr by Bob stark

14 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Interestingly enough Ferguson said that Messi is only good in 1 system while Ronaldo fits in multiple when asked the question to compare the two, maybe he was biased but this isn't a lie, Messi could only win in one specific setup.

 

It isn't a lie. For team like Burnley, I will pick Ronaldo over Messi. 

I will also pick Werner over Hazard for Burnley.  

 

39 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

It isn't a lie. For team like Burnley, I will pick Ronaldo over Messi. 

I will also pick Werner over Hazard for Burnley.  

 

Why though? I agree that Werner could be lethal for Burnley on the counter attack with the spaces he would get there, but Hazard isn't a slouch himself. I remember him always being very dangerous on the counter and he adds so much more to the team in an attacking sense. With Hazard and Werner I can understand that argument even though I would pick Hazard, because of the stark contrast in work rate defensively. It's arguable imo.

With Messi and Ronaldo however, there isn't really a difference in work rate, if anything Messi works harder. So with what justification do you pick CR7? CR7 is more dependant on his teammates to get his goals whereas Messi is more capable of creating goals on his own and is also going to make his teammates better with his passing, so I think he would work better in Burnley's setup. 

Having a player like Messi or Hazard in the team who you can just give the ball to and then rely on them to a) not lose it, even when under pressure and b) create something either for their teammates or themselves is extremely valuable for any team.

17 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Interestingly enough Ferguson said that Messi is only good in 1 system while Ronaldo fits in multiple when asked the question to compare the two, maybe he was biased but this isn't a lie, Messi could only win in one specific setup.

 

If you really believe that, you know very little about football.

2 hours ago, Bob stark said:

It isn't a lie. For team like Burnley, I will pick Ronaldo over Messi. 

I will also pick Werner over Hazard for Burnley.  

 

Messi would be far more useful to a team like Burnley than Ronaldo. Ronaldo would be completely startved of service and will barely get a touch. Again, prime Hazard over Werner for any poor team.

18 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Interestingly enough Ferguson said that Messi is only good in 1 system while Ronaldo fits in multiple when asked the question to compare the two, maybe he was biased but this isn't a lie, Messi could only win in one specific setup.

 

Then by the exact same logic both Pep and Jose are better than Fergie. 

Imagine the audacity to say Messi can only do it with Barcelona. When he single handedly carries that Argentina team, just look at the last week alone, in the Copa America. Also they say can he do it in the Prem League, but last time I checked every time he faces an English team in the Champions league, home or away he destroys them.

And just to simplify it even further for those who make these absurd comments. You got good players like Silva and Aguero who have come from La Liga and become Premier League Legends. Yet somehow people think Messi couldn't handle it. The list is endless, Mata, Luis Suarez who went the other way. Messi is on another league to even them. You got him scoring 4 past Arsenal in London, the way he tore Man City apart few years back when they were in their prime, but they think he will struggle against the relegation teams in this country haha, its actually laughable.

5 hours ago, True Blue23 said:

Why though? I agree that Werner could be lethal for Burnley on the counter attack with the spaces he would get there, but Hazard isn't a slouch himself. I remember him always being very dangerous on the counter and he adds so much more to the team in an attacking sense. With Hazard and Werner I can understand that argument even though I would pick Hazard, because of the stark contrast in work rate defensively. It's arguable imo.

With Messi and Ronaldo however, there isn't really a difference in work rate, if anything Messi works harder. So with what justification do you pick CR7? CR7 is more dependant on his teammates to get his goals whereas Messi is more capable of creating goals on his own and is also going to make his teammates better with his passing, so I think he would work better in Burnley's setup. 

Having a player like Messi or Hazard in the team who you can just give the ball to and then rely on them to a) not lose it, even when under pressure and b) create something either for their teammates or themselves is extremely valuable for any team.

 

@ashwinFor team like Burnley whose main game is very2 direct, it will be very difficult for player like messi or hazard to be effective. Both are not weak but physical game are not their strength, u can't play long random ball or random cross and let them compete in the box. So you will have to play shorter game which doesn't suit the team quality ,which mean there is tons of responsibility for hazard/messi to do everything, they won't survive. 

 

 

Edited June 18, 20215 yr by Bob stark

2 hours ago, Oli said:

Imagine the audacity to say Messi can only do it with Barcelona. When he single handedly carries that Argentina team, just look at the last week alone, in the Copa America. Also they say can he do it in the Prem League, but last time I checked every time he faces an English team in the Champions league, home or away he destroys them.

And just to simplify it even further for those who make these absurd comments. You got good players like Silva and Aguero who have come from La Liga and become Premier League Legends. Yet somehow people think Messi couldn't handle it. The list is endless, Mata, Luis Suarez who went the other way. Messi is on another league to even them. You got him scoring 4 past Arsenal in London, the way he tore Man City apart few years back when they were in their prime, but they think he will struggle against the relegation teams in this country haha, its actually laughable.

For me, I don't think people truly realize the level of football that messi played from maybe when he was  22 till a couple years ago. It was beyond ridiculous. I have never imagine player can reach that level let alone being in that level for long period of time. He pretty much performed at wc player best game ever weekly, it was almost like a joke. Even when Pool beat them 4-0, Messi was the best player in that game, It made no sense. 

Btw I truly don't want this thread to become Messi vs Ronaldo or even Messi vs Kante. So I will stop talking about messi in this thread.

I personally want Kante to win balon dor, it is good for him but France need to win euro to give him a stronger case because in the league we are a bit awful and Kante main competitor scored like 40 goals. 

 

 

 

Yes let get back to N'Golo. If he wins the Ballon d'or it would be perfect, and he thoroughly deserves it.  

4 hours ago, Argo said:

Then by the exact same logic both Pep and Jose are better than Fergie. 

Could be, I'm not arguing about Fergie being better than them I'm just saying that what he said has a big truth as well.

5 hours ago, Oli said:

If you really believe that, you know very little about football.

So Fergie also knows very little about football? 

I pick Kante over Messi this season super fast, if you also believe that Messi should win the golden ball every year just because he's boosting end product vs Elche and other lower end teams in La Liga you're missing a whole lot when it comes to football;

Messi has been irrelevant in Europe for 4-5 years ever since that generation got older and he has been losing heavy for both club and national team, I still remember 2010 how he won the award and went as the best player to the World Cup and did absolutely nothing, at the same time his teammates that were a part of that Golden Spanish generation won that same World Cup with ease + won a Euro before and after that World Cup, I think it's pretty obvious who needed who there...

16 hours ago, Gol15 said:

So Fergie also knows very little about football? 

I pick over Messi this season super fast, if you also believe that Messi should win the golden ball every year just because he's boosting end product vs Elche and other lower end teams in La Liga you're missing a whole lot when it comes to football;

Messi has been irrelevant in Europe for 4-5 years ever since that generation got older and he has been losing heavy for both club and national team, I still remember 2010 how he won the award and went as the best player to the World Cup and did absolutely nothing, at the same time his teammates that were a part of that Golden Spanish generation won that same World Cup with ease + won a Euro before and after that World Cup, I think it's pretty obvious who needed who there...

Pretty circular no? 😄 

From your logic, Fergie is overrated because he has only ever won anything major or succeeded with a single team (ok 2 teams, he was quite successful at Aberdeen). 

So Fergie probably does not know that much about football? Well, not as much as Jose and Pep who have proven themselves in multiple leagues?

So Fergie saying this about Messi is probably not worth as much weight as say, Pep, saying this about Messi? 

 

Or are you saying Pep also knows nothing as per some other logic?

Or, is it just possible that this is a very weak argument? 😁

18 hours ago, Gol15 said:

So Fergie also knows very little about football? 

I pick Kante over Messi this season super fast, if you also believe that Messi should win the golden ball every year just because he's boosting end product vs Elche and other lower end teams in La Liga you're missing a whole lot when it comes to football;

Messi has been irrelevant in Europe for 4-5 years ever since that generation got older and he has been losing heavy for both club and national team, I still remember 2010 how he won the award and went as the best player to the World Cup and did absolutely nothing, at the same time his teammates that were a part of that Golden Spanish generation won that same World Cup with ease + won a Euro before and after that World Cup, I think it's pretty obvious who needed who there...

Honestly what are you going on about, as usual on here you write whatever suits your narrative.

Firstly you've not listened to anything I said. I said I want Kante to win the award this year, you don't have to look far above to see that. No where did I or anyone else for that matter suggest that Messi should win it every year, or even this year.

Secondly, on to your Messi posts, which are quite frankly quite laughable and makes me stick by my point that your football knowledge is quite clearly lacking on the matter. You ignored my point about him still scoring non stop for Argentina and carrying that team single handedly to this day, or the fact every time he faces English opposition, even in England, he terrorized them. Now you've gone a step further and are saying he's stat padding against the Elche's of this world. He's scored 30 LEAGUE GOALS this year and 38 in all competitions. You also said he's been irrelevant in Europe for 4-5 years, he's scored 37 goals in 43 Champions League games in the last 5 years. Then you're saying because Spain who won plenty of competitions at the start of the last decade, were carrying Messi. They had a whole team, just because he was the best player in the world doesn't mean it guarantees International success, even though he did technically drag them to a world cup final. How have you put 2 and 2 together and made 7. Do you even listen to what you say half the time, or are you on auto pilot defense mode because of Jorginho, all the time.

f**k Messi. Just give that Ballon d'Or to our N'Golo.

6 hours ago, Oli said:

Honestly what are you going on about, as usual on here you write whatever suits your narrative.

Firstly you've not listened to anything I said. I said I want Kante to win the award this year, you don't have to look far above to see that. No where did I or anyone else for that matter suggest that Messi should win it every year, or even this year.

Secondly, on to your Messi posts, which are quite frankly quite laughable and makes me stick by my point that your football knowledge is quite clearly lacking on the matter. You ignored my point about him still scoring non stop for Argentina and carrying that team single handedly to this day, or the fact every time he faces English opposition, even in England, he terrorized them. Now you've gone a step further and are saying he's stat padding against the Elche's of this world. He's scored 30 LEAGUE GOALS this year and 38 in all competitions. You also said he's been irrelevant in Europe for 4-5 years, he's scored 37 goals in 43 Champions League games in the last 5 years. Then you're saying because Spain who won plenty of competitions at the start of the last decade, were carrying Messi. They had a whole team, just because he was the best player in the world doesn't mean it guarantees International success, even though he did technically drag them to a world cup final. How have you put 2 and 2 together and made 7. Do you even listen to what you say half the time, or are you on auto pilot defense mode because of Jorginho, all the time.

I only started talking about Messi because someone said that he should win the Golden Ball every year. Sorry for picking Kante!

Saying that he's good for Barcelona and only in Barcelona means that he still hasn't won anything for his country, even the great late Maradona that loved him very much admitted that Messi is not a real leader for Argentina. Did Messi have the chance to win for his country? Yes he had, twice he failed to win the final of Copa America and he was largley anonymous in the World Cup final, some have argued that Di Maria had done more for them that year in 2014 than Messi himself and if he wanted to overcome Maradona he really should have decided at least one of those finals but even missed a penalty in the Copa America final.
For a player that is seen as the best ever he's clearly missing a big criteria for that and he can only blame himself, it's not like he's playing for a small football nation, quite the contrary he's playing for one of the biggest and the big names and quality players he played with in Argentina since the 2006 World Cup make up a great list...

How many of those CL goals have been outside of the group stages of the CL? He just disappeared in the late stages of the CL, specially in comparison to Ronaldo so yes fact is he has been largely irrelevant in the CL just look at his games after the group stages, when Ronaldo was 33 years old he was winning the CL with 15 goals scored while Messi at 33 years old lost to Bayern 8:2 without doing much, season before that 4:0 to Liverpool in the second game, season before that 3:0 to Roma in the second game without doing anything, season before that one 3:0 to Juventus in the first game, season before that 2:0 loss vs Atletico... How many games did Messi need in order to score against us? He only managed to score against us when we had Conte, a manager that is very known to be a huge miss when it comes to European football.

Barcelona gave him everything and he has been mainly boosting his end product vs lower end teams in La Liga in the recent years, he's getting 500k per week + tons of bonuses for that? Again, sorry for picking Kante.

 

3 hours ago, Valerie said:

f**k Messi. Just give that Ballon d'Or to our N'Golo.

Rinse and repeat.

Taking on just three City players.     Usual outcome…😀

Edited June 26, 20215 yr by erskblue

N'Golo Kante was lifted in the air by  Kurt Zouma (Image: Getty Images)