2 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Halle - f**king - ujah!!

It's taken a while, but it must have hit home with TT today that when Jorginho is bad, he takes bad to a whole new level. THAT is why Kante plays more often and if Kante's not fit put Gilmour in for a few games as we cannot afford a repeat of that again. Someone asked was it as bad as Bakayoko v Watford. No, but it comes a close second!

 

Those were his exact words, the 'wake up call' came right after the bit where he blamed the 'two mistakes' that lead to Silva's two yellow cards.

14 minutes ago, coco said:

Did he stay on the pitch because he was playing well?, or was it simply TT had no choice after the sending off, he had to stick with Jorginho as we were still leading, but then we went down to 4-1 and the game was gone, but then when Mount scored (70) it gave TT a bit of hope, so he hooked Jorginho for Havertz.

A manager always has a choice, if he really thinks that we lost due to Jorginho that was the only responsible player for T.Silva getting 2 yellow cards in the first 30 minutes then for the sake of the team he should have subbed Jorginho off, why do you believe that Tuchel had no choice but to keep the player that is going to lose us the game, surely anything is better than keeping on the player that will lose you the game? I don't understand what you mean.

Edited April 3, 20215 yr by Gol15

6 minutes ago, RMH said:

The problem is deeper than Jorginho. We could play next game with Kante and Kova and Palace could put past us 3, 4 or 5. We are just so inconsistent that it is unbelievable. still, that doesn't clear him from the sh*t show of today.

We're not really inconsistent. We lost the momentum coming back from the international break. Half of the squad was called up I believe.

It's one of those days when you've been absent from school for a couple days then you're awkward for about a day or so with everybody else in class. 

The team can bounce back, for how long though depends on Tuchel to get everybody in sync again.

24 minutes ago, KonaKai Blue said:

Many clubs not just ours have players like this for a number of economic reasons. We spent the money and need to try and make it work to keep his value high. Same reason why Kepa can't easily be sold and why Bakayoko is still a Chelsea player.

If he isn't good enough he wouldn't have been playing for 3 seasons straight regardless of how much money we spent, we sold D.Costa to the only club that he wanted to go even while everyone knew that he will never ever play for us again, we stopped counting on other players as soon as it was obvious that they weren't good enough, if by removing them from the team like Drinkwater or sending them on loan like Morata...

Clearly Jorginho simply isn't one of those players so I don't buy your conspiracy theory here.

Edited April 3, 20215 yr by Gol15

3 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

A manager always has a choice, if he really thinks that we lost due to Jorginho that was the only responsible player for T.Silva getting 2 yellow cards in the first 30 minutes then for the sake of the team he should have subbed Jorginho off, why do you believe that Tuchel had no choice but to keep the player that is going to lose us the game, surely anything is better than keeping the player that will lose you the game on? I don't understand what you mean.

Maybe in Germany they also have the saying 'Don't close the stable door after the horse has bolted' ?

Just becasue you have cost the team the game, it doesnt mean you will get hooked, players dont get hooked for scoring own goals, players get hooked before the bad mistakes cost the team......Don't close the stable door after the horse has bolted' .

Just now, coco said:

Maybe in Germany they also have the saying 'Don't close the stable door after the horse has bolted' ?

Just becasue you have cost the team the game, it doesnt mean you will get hooked, players dont get hooked for scoring own goals, players get hooked before the bad mistakes cost the team......Don't close the stable door after the horse has bolted' .

That doesn't really sound like Tuchel, he has already showed that he is capable of making double substitutions at half time when the team isn't playing well and the way he treated CHO clearly shows that he doesn't really care about waiting till we really lose the game to have more reasons to blame a player for another player, this narrative doesn't really work anyway.

29 minutes ago, Deino said:

Because Jorginho's the only one at the moment that can link the ball from defence to Kova/Mount.

Kante as good as he is, tends to be marked by opposing midfielders because his one touch technique isn't as strong when he's under pressure.

Kova can do it but he's better at getting the ball and dribbling it forward. 

Gilmour is raw. His game is not developed yet so can't really judge him for now.

Sarri built a formation around Jorginho. Lampard wanted Rice and had to make do with Jorginho, Tuchel doesn't really have any other option because he regards experience seeing as he was appointed midseason.

Jorginho is a system-based player. As others have said, he is limited. You can insert Jorginho into Pep's team and he'd be amazing because in a team that can do everything, you just need a linker.

I didn't miss his long passes. He just barely makes them. Does he have it in his locker? I would say yes but he doesn't make it at a volume that I'd call it a good long passer of the ball like say a Pirlo/Fabregas/Xavi/Scholes.

You're making Jorginho out to be this hybrid Pirlo-Fabregas-Busquets type player when he isn't. 

You're way off the mark here, I have always said that Jorginho is a system-based player. I have always said that he isn't like Fabregas.

But he can pass the ball much better than how you're describing him, search on youtube if you don't believe me.

Yes Sarri build the whole playstyle around Jorginho and we finished top 3 so clearly it can be done.

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

That doesn't really sound like Tuchel, he has already showed that he is capable of making double substitutions at half time when the team isn't playing well and the way he treated CHO clearly shows that he doesn't really care about waiting till we really lose the game to have more reasons to blame a player for another player, this narrative doesn't really work anyway.

We will soon find out who is right, one way or another, the 'wake up call' he talks about is aimed at the team or an individual player ? it certainly wasn't aimed at WBA, they were impressive, but that wasn't what 'woke' the gaffer up..

2 minutes ago, coco said:

We will soon find out who is right, one way or another, the 'wake up call' he talks about is aimed at the team or an individual player ? it certainly wasn't aimed at WBA, they were impressive, but that wasn't what 'woke' the gaffer up..

How are we going to find it out? I believe that he could have taken out Jorginho after the first 45 minutes, I don't see how you can prove me wrong there... Just by saying that he had no choice when he clearly can do whatever he wants, isn't enough to convince me.

If you mean that we will see if Jorginho will play again for us, well that we will see but 1 bad game shouldn't mean the end for a player that has been overall a decent player for us, Tuchel had more good games with Jorginho than with some other players.

6 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

How are we going to find it out? I believe that he could have taken out Jorginho after the first 45 minutes, I don't see how you can prove me wrong there... Just by saying that he had no choice when he clearly can do whatever he wants, isn't enough to convince me.

If you mean that we will see if Jorginho will play again for us, well that we will see but 1 bad game shouldn't mean the end for a player that has been overall a decent player for us, Tuchel had more good games with Jorginho than with some other players.

No i mean we will find out if TT trusts Jorginho on Wednesday and onwards into the thick end of the season.

4 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

You're way off the mark here, I have always said that Jorginho is a system-based player. I have always said that he isn't like Fabregas.

But he can pass the ball much better than how you're describing him, search on youtube if you don't believe me.

Yes Sarri build the whole playstyle around Jorginho and we finished top 3 so clearly it can be done.

Reply to first paragraph: Fair.

Reply to second paragraph: In isolation players always look good. Hell, even Morata looks good on Youtube. Can Jorginho make a long pass? Yes, any player can. 

Does he bypass defences consistently using those long passes? Not enough in my opinion. That's open to interpretation. You want to say he can make long passes? Sure. Not as good as top players like the people I've mentioned before. You can say the same with Kante and Kova. Both can also make long passes but does it bypass defences consistently like the legends do? Not really.

Reply to third paragraph:

Sarri tried it and he never won any league with it.

It baffles me that you even come up with this point. Why should a team be built around Jorginho? Are you actually serious? 

1 minute ago, Deino said:

Reply to first paragraph: Fair.

Reply to second paragraph: In isolation players always look good. Hell, even Morata looks good on Youtube. Can Jorginho make a long pass? Yes, any player can. 

Does he bypass defences consistently using those long passes? Not enough in my opinion. That's open to interpretation. You want to say he can make long passes? Sure. Not as good as top players like the people I've mentioned before. You can say the same with Kante and Kova. Both can also make long passes but does it bypass defences consistently like the legends do? Not really.

Reply to third paragraph:

Sarri tried it and he never won any league with it.

It baffles me that you even come up with this point. Why should a team be built around Jorginho? Are you actually serious? 

The argument isn't if any player can look good on youtube, the argument is that Jorginho has been able to offer us much more than just 5 yard passes, heck one of the prettiest goals last season was Jorginho's longer ball towards Tammy, so when you find that on youtube it shows that it's not just "5 yard passes" that this player is capable of, in isolation you could make any player look bad just as well - this is what you have done by saying that he only offers a simple 5 yard pass, yes in isolation you could show that this really is exactly the only thing he has been doing for 3 seasons but that isn't the full picture.

Sarri finishing top 3 in his first season without a real striker and without a real keeper but where everything went through Jorginho showed that Jorginho was able to adapt to a new league without any problems, now it looks like you're criticizing that Sarri didn't win the league in his first season? Well neither did Pep nor Klopp, it doesn't mean that their systems don't work. I'm saying that Jorginho is much more capable to make things work in a team than how you're describing him.

I'm not advocating that Tuchel should build his team around Jorginho, I have actually said in the past that he should build his team around Mount and Havertz and I still believe in that, ahead of this game today I posted my preferred starting lineup and it included both Mount and Havertz. 

19 minutes ago, coco said:

No i mean we will find out if TT trusts Jorginho on Wednesday and onwards into the thick end of the season.

Even if I personally think that it would be harsh to fully froze a player after one bad game, I'm all for Tuchel to find a way to win games and if he believes that we have a higher chance of doing it without Jorginho then he shouldn't play Jorginho.

I have also said basically the same thing about Lampard, I even openly said that the board should sign Declan Rice for Lampard in January if that's the player that will make him win games, the one thing I never believed in is playing Kante at the base of the midfield solo and that didn't work out so I know I'm not biased here.

21 minutes ago, coco said:

No i mean we will find out if TT trusts Jorginho on Wednesday and onwards into the thick end of the season.

Not necessarily coco. If Kante is not fit Jorginho gets in by default.

 

3 minutes ago, just said:

Not necessarily coco. If Kante is not fit Jorginho gets in by default.

 

He as the manager doesn't need to play him if he doesn't want to. It's as simple as that.

I just don't understand that if he finds Jorginho to be the main reason why T.Silva got 2 yellow cards why did it take him over 70 minutes to take him out of the game...? Doesn't sound like the all logical and all rational Tuchel that I have been hearing ever since he took over.

7 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

The argument isn't if any player can look good on youtube, the argument is that Jorginho has been able to offer us much more than just 5 yard passes, heck one of the prettiest goals last season was Jorginho's longer ball towards Tammy, so when you find that on youtube it shows that it's not just "5 yard passes" that this player is capable of, in isolation you could make any player look bad just as well - this is what you have done by saying that he only offers a simple 5 yard pass, yes in isolation you could show that this really is exactly the only thing he has been doing for 3 seasons but that isn't the full picture.

Sarri finishing top 3 in his first season without a real striker and without a real keeper but where everything went through Jorginho showed that Jorginho was able to adapt to a new league without any problems, now it looks like you're criticizing that Sarri didn't win the league in his first season? Well neither did Pep nor Klopp, it doesn't mean that their systems don't work. I'm saying that Jorginho is much more capable to make things work in a team than how you're describing him.

I'm not advocating that Tuchel should build his team around Jorginho, I have actually said in the past that he should build his team around Mount and Havertz and I still believe in that, ahead of this game today I posted my preferred starting lineup and it included both Mount and Havertz. 

It's not about being able to make the pass. How often does Jorginho cause opponent's defences problems with his long balls? He barely makes them to consistently trouble any opponent this season. The volume of decisive long balls per match is what I'm looking for. If it's the same amount as Fabregas/Pirlo/Scholes then I'll take back what I said about him not being able to make long passes

I am not criticizing Sarri not winning the league on his first season. Sarri has played Jorginho in a system suitable for him since 2015 in Serie A. Sarri's system has centered around Jorginho for at least 3 years before coming to the PL and after bringing Jorginho over, Sarri still hasn't won any league title. Jorginho is clearly not a player that can win you league titles.

5 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

He as the manager doesn't need to play him if he doesn't want to. It's as simple as that.

I just don't understand that if he finds Jorginho to be the main reason why T.Silva got 2 yellow cards why did it take him over 70 minutes to take him out of the game...? Doesn't sound like the all logical and all rational Tuchel that I have been hearing ever since he took over.

In theory I agree Gol. It won't surprise you to know that if Kante isn't fit I would pick Gilmour over Jorginho every time as I think he is the better player.

However, I'm not naive enough to believe for even one second that Tuchel would dare do that though. 

As for the Yellow cards today it's obvious how Tuchel is making the connection to Jorginho. His two basic errors created the situations which led to the cards.

1 hour ago, Deino said:

We're not really inconsistent. We lost the momentum coming back from the international break. Half of the squad was called up I believe.

It's one of those days when you've been absent from school for a couple days then you're awkward for about a day or so with everybody else in class. 

The team can bounce back, for how long though depends on Tuchel to get everybody in sync again.

I would say that being world beaters against Liverpool or Atlético and then not being able to get a win playing crap football agains the likes of Leeds, Sheffield Ut or being trashed by West Brom is being inconsistent. Football wise we can't string two games of good football, and score-wise we don't seem to be able to consistently win. And the worst part is that we seem to loose points against the dross rather than against the top teams.

30 minutes ago, just said:

Not necessarily coco. If Kante is not fit Jorginho gets in by default.

 

An apt word.

I think we’re being a bit harsh on our boy Jorginho here, after all we’ve only lost 1 game in the last 23 in which he’s started (not counting that Arsenal game). 

Can't wait for Gallagher to come in next season. A midfielder with energy, defensive nous and the ability to assist and score goals.

I don't think Jorginho has been that bad this season. And everyone can have an off day. But he's in general a limited player and a liability when the opposition is transitioning at speed.

We may see more of him this season but think he will (and should be) be off in the summer.

Lets face it, if we had 5 subs, Jorginho wouldve been hooked way sooner, but having been forced into the Christiensen Ziyech sub somewhat, and Pulisic then coming off with hamstring injury at half time. I dont think it would been wise to make the 3rd and final sub any earlier than we did, as we couldve ended up with 9 men and 30 odd minutes left if anyone picked up an injury.

Jorginho has good games, he also has some shockers, today was a strange one though, because he was shocking without even being pressed, and when the game opens up, especially when we are a man down, there is just too much aroud him and he diesnt have the athleticism to contribute in games like that. 

Really poor today, and I dont think many fans see him as a long term player here, so hopefully he dusts himself off and has a decent game midweek.

2 minutes ago, Deino said:

It's not about being able to make the pass. How often does Jorginho cause opponent's defences problems with his long balls? He barely makes them to consistently trouble any opponent this season. The volume of decisive long balls per match is what I'm looking for. If it's the same amount as Fabregas/Pirlo/Scholes then I'll take back what I said about him not being able to make long passes

I am not criticizing Sarri not winning the league on his first season. Sarri has played Jorginho in a system suitable for him since 2015 in Serie A. Sarri's system has centered around Jorginho for at least 3 years before coming to the PL and after bringing Jorginho over, Sarri still hasn't won any league title. Jorginho is clearly not a player that can win you league titles.

But we both agree that Jorginho simply isn't Fabregas, he isn't going to make 10+ assists per season so I can tell you right away that he will never be like Fabregas was for us.

Though I took some time and actually checked the stats from the PL website and Jorginho has made a less amount of accurate long passes for this season in comparison to Kante and Kovacic but in the previous 2 season before this one he had the higher number of accurate long passes than them so it may be also some other factors involved, he has in fact stopped making as many long range passes and he used to do last season. He actually got kind of "robbed" for 1 assists from a long range pass towards Werner at the start of the season but Werner did a lot of work there so they simply didn't give the assist to Jorginho for that 1 goal.

You're saying we won't win the league with Jorginho as if everything evolves around his abilities, this is not really fair considering that we both agreed that Jorginho is first and foremost a system-based player. But obviously, if Jorginho fails to win any league title ever you could say that he simply wasn't good enough (despite that many worse players have won a league title in their careers). Sarri not winning the league with us in his first season and not winning with Napoli has a lot of other factors involved as well but the point is that Jorginho has definitely helped Sarri to reach a high position, if anything Sarri proved by going far in the league cup and Europa league and finishing top 3 in his first and only season with us that his system works, now imagine if we had a proper striker and a proper goalkeeper...

...I don't think he would have won the league anyway! But still it shows that having a player like Jorginho can be a huge factor for finishing top 2 and top 3 in multiple leagues so that's hardly a bad thing - if you get good players around him then he might just enable those to do their roles at the very high level and maybe that might win you something at the end, he isn't as good as Pirlo and Xavi but even they required world class players around them in order to win titles and several of our players had their best or second best seasons with Sarri.

PS. Sarri did win a league title with Juventus while changing their style of football to how he wants his team to play just as well, he just had a better set of players, he was sacked because they wanted the CL title but they are doing much worse right now under Pirlo.

I'm enjoying the Jorginho/Mikel comparisons. It reminds me of comparing my stress-induced itchy left knee to my stress-induced itchy right knee. 

The tragedy is that I firmly believe that Frank was on the verge of giving Billy his chance. We may not have gained the same number of points we have now but in the longer term we would have been in a better place had we shown just a smidgen of patience for once. I just don't get the feeling that Tuchel is considering this at all. We are likely to continue with the tried and trusted as necessarily Tuchel will focus on the the next 8 weeks rather than take the time to actually build something as he will not be given this time.

 

My opinion on him from last year is unchanged - the ultimate ball recycler. He’s just such a “meh” player. Never does anything to get you excited or on the edge of your seat. Gilmour would be the better option in the absence of Kante IMO. 

He’s just not very good when things go pear shaped. There was one of the West Brom goals (I can’t remember which) where they broke down our left hand side and he was chasing the guy and it looked like he was towing a caravan trying to catch him.