39 minutes ago, just said:

Listened to Pat Nevin post match on BBC 5 Live and he said he likes both Kovacic and Jorginho but that they were out-classed tonight, and that no Chelsea players would get in the Bayern side. He also said he had never seen Jorginho lose possession so much.

I'd say that was an honest assessment from Pat. Decent players on their day Jorge and Kova, but have to agree with what Slojo keeps telling us....... neither are Michael Essien.

It's amazing how you still manage to criticise our best player on the pitch, meanwhile that Barkley lad you kept telling us who was much better than both of them combined was utter dog sh*t... AGAIN... 

He doesn't seem like the quickest or strongest player but for some reason he's able to burst past most players in midfield, I wonder if it's because they don't expect it or there's something he does to bamboozle them right before he takes off.

1 minute ago, sonic90 said:

He doesn't seem like the quickest or strongest player but for some reason he's able to burst past most players in midfield, I wonder if it's because they don't expect it or there's something he does to bamboozle them right before he takes off.

I would say some combination of phenomenal technical ability/close control, timing and decision-making (when to play it safe, when to make a run, when not to...). I.e. Some of the things he’s routinely criticised for are in fact his key strengths. Far from being outclassed tonight, he barely put a foot wrong. He showed that this is the stage on which he belongs, and the gulf in class between him and the rest of our players was embarrassing. His performance is obviously overshadowed by the result, but I would say, factoring in the quality of the opposition (important to emphasise this), tonight was his best performance in a Chelsea shirt. I genuinely do my best to try and see things through the lens of the detractors, as I think it’s always healthy to try and see the ‘other side’. But I really don’t get what’s not to like. 

45 minutes ago, sonic90 said:

He doesn't seem like the quickest or strongest player but for some reason he's able to burst past most players in midfield, I wonder if it's because they don't expect it or there's something he does to bamboozle them right before he takes off.

He knows how to read the momentum of a tackle and when to time it right. He excels in one on ones especially when running with the ball

7 hours ago, Dean said:

Ha re Essien! I actually think a bit unfair to put them in the same same category, Just. Kova a cut above both Jorginho and the rest of the team tonight and most games (Gol will be livid). Wouldn’t make the Bayern first team, though it’s not a given, and that is one formidable side (the main/only valid talking point). Also Kova is continually improving. He’ll get better still and one day, Just, you might even be forced to offer some unqualified praise 🙂 

Very fair view Dean. I'd agree with all that.

Don't think he is world class or even close at the moment but neither are most players. I do like him Dean, definite major improvement on what he offered last season. 

Best player tonight he's a class above everyone get some world class players around him and Jorginho with world class movement and they will be devastating in a two.

1st name on the team sheet now, i wonder whether a RLC and Kovacic pivot will work moving forward. 

 

2 hours ago, just said:

Very fair view Dean. I'd agree with all that.

Don't think he is world class or even close at the moment but neither are most players. I do like him Dean, definite major improvement on what he offered last season. 

I think he’s close.

12 hours ago, just said:

Listened to Pat Nevin post match on BBC 5 Live and he said he likes both Kovacic and Jorginho but that they were out-classed tonight, and that no Chelsea players would get in the Bayern side. He also said he had never seen Jorginho lose possession so much.

I'd say that was an honest assessment from Pat. Decent players on their day Jorge and Kova, but have to agree with what Slojo keeps telling us....... neither are Michael Essien.

 

Last season Nevin was trying to tell us Jorginho was the reincarnation of Eusebio and he couldn't understand why anybody would dare criticise him. Now he's not good enough for Bayern. Did Nevin mention the manager last night, out of interest, because unless he did, his views on our personnel might be taken with a pinch of salt. We were outnumbered in midfield all night, and Frank did nothing to change it. In fact, Frank's reading of the game, from a tactical point of view, and his ability to remedy problems in the middle of games, has been wanting a lot this season.

 

For me, Kovacic and Jorginho shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath. Kovacic is way superior, and I think most people on these boards realise this, yourself included. As @Spiller86 keeps telling us, we don't play patterned movements, as Bayern do. Kovacic has easily enough class to get into Bayern's side because he has the raw minerals. The way Bayern play, that doesn't happen by accident, that happens on the training field, day after day. Sure, great players, but last night we saw a team that are in tune with each other, that are part of a cohesive structure. Nevin's analysis is too simplistic, IMO. Kovacic is class but he's not playing in that sort of team and he doesn't have that sort of quality around him.

 

Regarding Essien, who you mention a lot, he played in our greatest-ever midfield, alongside Maka and Lamps. We're unlikely to ever have anything better, but for all Essien's great strengths, and there were many, there's also a caveat. He was injury prone. He doesn't sit alongside the PL greats, simply because he didn't do it often enough, over a sustained period. Not his fault maybe but that's the facts. You talk about Drogba a lot and he was a great. Essien could have been a great but for injuries.

 

My point? Well, you put Kovacic alongside Maka and Lamps, and all the other great players we had in that side, and you'd still be talking about him today. That was an infinitely better side, and we had the best coach in town. Comparisons are all very well, but let's put things in context. Different player to Essien of course with completely different attributes but you put him in that side instead of Essien, alongside the best DM the world has ever seen and the best goalscoring midfielder the world has ever seen, and we'd still be talking about the class act playing alongside them, making us more fluid and silkier, linking everything together.

 

Kovacic is our best player. I have high hopes for some of our youngsters but right now he's the one playing at the highest level, and it's been that way all season, and he's easily good enough for the top sides. Put him in that Bayern side and I have a feeling Nevin would be waxing lyrical about him. That's my view.

It's not wonder that Kimmich is being singled out by Bayern fans for his performance, Mateo was running circles around him yesterday. Sadly, it was the other way around for the rest of our team (except James).

Just now, Vagabond said:

It's not wonder that Kimmich is being singled out by Bayern fans for his performance, Mateo was running circles around him yesterday. Sadly, it was the other way around for the rest of our team (except James).

And yet for me on the first two goals if James reads the play and runs back and stops the pass to the supporting players we probably don't concede. It's not about whether that is his role it is about football intelligence and realising Jorginho won't get there. Instead he ball watches.

 

Just now, Strider6003 said:

And yet for me on the first two goals if James reads the play and runs back and stops the pass to the supporting players we probably don't concede. It's not about whether that is his role it is about football intelligence and realising Jorginho won't get there. Instead he ball watches.

 

I agree that James tends to be a defensive liability, but you can train that out of him. He has the skill and the physicality to cope with a strong side like Bayern. I'm sad to say he's our only youth player I can say that about. Tammy and Mason aren't good enough.

4 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

I agree that James tends to be a defensive liability, but you can train that out of him. He has the skill and the physicality to cope with a strong side like Bayern. I'm sad to say he's our only youth player I can say that about. Tammy and Mason aren't good enough.

I agree at this level they are not, yet still will be needed this season due to other options being injured.

Mason gives us that closing down ability it is just when he get the ball he normally makes the wrong decision.

Tammy has been found out yet at least for the early part of the season got us up the top end of the table while the opposition worked him out.

 

48 minutes ago, Davey Baby said:

 

Last season Nevin was trying to tell us Jorginho was the reincarnation of Eusebio and he couldn't understand why anybody would dare criticise him. Now he's not good enough for Bayern. Did Nevin mention the manager last night, out of interest, because unless he did, his views on our personnel might be taken with a pinch of salt. We were outnumbered in midfield all night, and Frank did nothing to change it. In fact, Frank's reading of the game, from a tactical point of view, and his ability to remedy problems in the middle of games, has been wanting a lot this season.

 

For me, Kovacic and Jorginho shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath. Kovacic is way superior, and I think most people on these boards realise this, yourself included. As @Spiller86 keeps telling us, we don't play patterned movements, as Bayern do. Kovacic has easily enough class to get into Bayern's side because he has the raw minerals. The way Bayern play, that doesn't happen by accident, that happens on the training field, day after day. Sure, great players, but last night we saw a team that are in tune with each other, that are part of a cohesive structure. Nevin's analysis is too simplistic, IMO. Kovacic is class but he's not playing in that sort of team and he doesn't have that sort of quality around him.

 

Regarding Essien, who you mention a lot, he played in our greatest-ever midfield, alongside Maka and Lamps. We're unlikely to ever have anything better, but for all Essien's great strengths, and there were many, there's also a caveat. He was injury prone. He doesn't sit alongside the PL greats, simply because he didn't do it often enough, over a sustained period. Not his fault maybe but that's the facts. You talk about Drogba a lot and he was a great. Essien could have been a great but for injuries.

 

My point? Well, you put Kovacic alongside Maka and Lamps, and all the other great players we had in that side, and you'd still be talking about him today. That was an infinitely better side, and we had the best coach in town. Comparisons are all very well, but let's put things in context. Different player to Essien of course with completely different attributes but you put him in that side instead of Essien, alongside the best DM the world has ever seen and the best goalscoring midfielder the world has ever seen, and we'd still be talking about the class act playing alongside them, making us more fluid and silkier, linking everything together.

 

Kovacic is our best player. I have high hopes for some of our youngsters but right now he's the one playing at the highest level, and it's been that way all season, and he's easily good enough for the top sides. Put him in that Bayern side and I have a feeling Nevin would be waxing lyrical about him. That's my view.

great post. As for putting Kova in that Bayern side - by the same token, put Kimmich in our side and I don’t think many would be claiming his rightful place was in the opposing team. Instead he’d be getting lambasted more than anyone for gifting them the ball.

6 hours ago, Davey Baby said:

My point? Well, you put Kovacic alongside Maka and Lamps, and all the other great players we had in that side, and you'd still be talking about him today. That was an infinitely better side, and we had the best coach in town. Comparisons are all very well, but let's put things in context. Different player to Essien of course with completely different attributes but you put him in that side instead of Essien, alongside the best DM the world has ever seen and the best goalscoring midfielder the world has ever seen, and we'd still be talking about the class act playing alongside them, making us more fluid and silkier, linking everything together.

Pssh… he couldn't hold a candle to Eidur. 

9 hours ago, big blue said:

1st name on the team sheet now, i wonder whether a RLC and Kovacic pivot will work moving forward. 

 

Not for me. RLC should be the number 10.

12 hours ago, Davey Baby said:

 

Last season Nevin was trying to tell us Jorginho was the reincarnation of Eusebio and he couldn't understand why anybody would dare criticise him. Now he's not good enough for Bayern. Did Nevin mention the manager last night, out of interest, because unless he did, his views on our personnel might be taken with a pinch of salt. We were outnumbered in midfield all night, and Frank did nothing to change it. In fact, Frank's reading of the game, from a tactical point of view, and his ability to remedy problems in the middle of games, has been wanting a lot this season.

 

For me, Kovacic and Jorginho shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath. Kovacic is way superior, and I think most people on these boards realise this, yourself included. As @Spiller86 keeps telling us, we don't play patterned movements, as Bayern do. Kovacic has easily enough class to get into Bayern's side because he has the raw minerals. The way Bayern play, that doesn't happen by accident, that happens on the training field, day after day. Sure, great players, but last night we saw a team that are in tune with each other, that are part of a cohesive structure. Nevin's analysis is too simplistic, IMO. Kovacic is class but he's not playing in that sort of team and he doesn't have that sort of quality around him.

 

Regarding Essien, who you mention a lot, he played in our greatest-ever midfield, alongside Maka and Lamps. We're unlikely to ever have anything better, but for all Essien's great strengths, and there were many, there's also a caveat. He was injury prone. He doesn't sit alongside the PL greats, simply because he didn't do it often enough, over a sustained period. Not his fault maybe but that's the facts. You talk about Drogba a lot and he was a great. Essien could have been a great but for injuries.

 

My point? Well, you put Kovacic alongside Maka and Lamps, and all the other great players we had in that side, and you'd still be talking about him today. That was an infinitely better side, and we had the best coach in town. Comparisons are all very well, but let's put things in context. Different player to Essien of course with completely different attributes but you put him in that side instead of Essien, alongside the best DM the world has ever seen and the best goalscoring midfielder the world has ever seen, and we'd still be talking about the class act playing alongside them, making us more fluid and silkier, linking everything together.

 

Kovacic is our best player. I have high hopes for some of our youngsters but right now he's the one playing at the highest level, and it's been that way all season, and he's easily good enough for the top sides. Put him in that Bayern side and I have a feeling Nevin would be waxing lyrical about him. That's my view.

As always Davey an impassioned and well crafted post the majority of which I agree with.

Where we diverge is on two counts. One, I don't think Kova, even with his improvement in form this season, would have got in ahead of Maka, Lampard, Essien, Ballack etc. And two I don't bring up Essien, now or ever, as a direct comparison with Kova. They are completely different players. No, I bring Essien up as the sort of player I believe we need to add to our midfield to make us better, to give us more energy, dynamism, size, strength, physicality because IMO we are crying out for that in our central midfield and it shows in games like last night. I think most people who have followed my posts on this understand my point, even if they don't agree with it.

We are a side still in transition with Frank trying to find the right pieces and to fit them together. By the start of next season I really don't think Kovacic and Jorginho will be our starting central midfield pairing. Time will tell. But IMO I think Frank realises we have a soft centre there and need to add some physical presence. RLC would add size, height and strength but, like Barkley, he doesn't seem blessed with natural athleticism. @big blue I think suggested a central pivot of RLC and Kova which we might see at some point before the end of the season.

 

Edited February 27, 20206 yr by just

5 minutes ago, just said:

As always Davey an impassioned and well crafted post the majority of which I agree with.

Where we diverge is on two counts. One, I don't think Kova, even with his improvement in form this season, would have got in ahead of Maka, Lampard, Essien, Ballack etc. And two I don't bring up Essien, now or ever, as a direct comparison with Kova. They are completely different players. No, I bring Essien up as the sort of player I believe we need to add to our midfield to make us better, to give us more energy, dynamism, size, strength, physicality because IMO we are crying out for that in our central midfield and it shows in games like last night. I think most people who have followed my posts on this understand my point, even if they don't agree with it.

We are a side still in transition with Frank trying to find the right pieces and to fit them together. By the start of next season I really don't think Kovacic and Jorginho will be our starting central midfield pairing. Time will tell. But IMO I think Frank realises we have a soft centre there and need to add some physical presence. RLC would add size, height and strength but, like Barkley, he doesn't seem blessed with natural athleticism. @big blue I think suggested a central pivot of RLC and Kova which we might see at some point before the end of the season.

 

I am as big a fan of RLC as anyone on here but I am not sure he can play that role. Would be asking him to become more like Viera and am not sure he has the defensive side to him.

I don't see Kovacic as our best player as he lacks any kind of end product. But he is much stronger with the ball than most of our other players and after watching him more closely I think his rather big transition this season helped some people;

- Kovacic playing deeper allows Mount to have a more free role - Kovacic is covering for Mount's pressing and Mount isn't exposed as much. This pratically means that up to the match against Bayern, Mount could have the argument of not being as useful due to our own tactics and the way Lampard is using him, but what came to light after the game vs Bayern is that Mount is actually not as effective with the ball as he should be.
Mount ran our counter and as soon as he had the ball in his feet it was very clear for the first time this season that he not only can struggle in games to have an impact when he doesn't have the ball or can't receive it, he actually can be without an idea of what to do in our final third and he may lack the pace with the ball and finally he is looking unable to protect the ball, protect our possession in the final third. Now it might be true to say that he was making runs mainly on the right side where it has been Kante who was doing that this season and that one game isn't enough of data for this argument against him - even if that was usually Kante's side, we have to be realistic, Kovacic is making Mount's life much easier this season. I dare to say that without Kovacic, Mount would be looking very similar to Barkley out there overall.

- Kovacic playing deeper allows Jorginho to always have an easier option in comparison to last season - While it may have looked during the first part of the season that it's Jorginho who takes all the players on him and makes it easier for anyone that is his partner, Kante or Kovacic, in the recent games the opposite has been happening. Kovacic is always making sure to gain space in front of him and his ball control allows Jorginho to play his role better. The simple fact that Kovacic moves with the ball is enough for Jorginho to always be in a good position to get a simple pass and to keep our transition going but it's also the fact that Kovacic is always looking in front of him and searching for open spaces that allows Jorginho to find an easier way out - this partnership that they have started recently is making life easier for Jorginho mostly as he is really in need of a simple solution where he might play 1-2 or simply have an easy solution when he is getting closed down.

- Kovacic playing deeper this season is making our backline good better than it actually is - Last season Sarri was having problems getting players involved in the final third, he insisted that Kante should continue his runs forward and that Kovacic should be higher up the pitch than he usually was as a bench player for Real Madrid. What happened this season is that for the most part we lacked a passing CB in comparison to last season when we had David Luiz, even if now it has been Christensen most recently it doesn't change the fact that our CBs have been less pressured to make decisions with the ball due to Kovacic taking the extra step to either take on a player or simply start our transition from the back. Because of Kovacic our CB pair was mostly doing their job just forming the line, instead of taking risks and making decisions, Kovacic has been doing those things for them. Jorginho doesn't take the pressure of our CBs he simply expects them to make a decision when they have the ball, Kovacic eliminates this pressure much more.

I believe that Kovacic has maybe around 2 years in general before he will enter his prime, in that time I hope he can improve even more because if he adds another tool to his game to use with his ability to run with the ball he can become a consistent and dominating player, I'm not sure what skill he should focus on because I'm not sure what might suit him the most but he could become trully a danger to the opposition if he adds the ability to shoot the ball, he could be like a hybrid Deco-Xavi Alonso-Nasri that can do so much on the pitch.

Edited February 27, 20206 yr by Gol15

4 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I don't see Kovacic as our best player as he lacks any kind of end product.

He is better than Jorginho though. Right?

 

12 hours ago, just said:

As always Davey an impassioned and well crafted post the majority of which I agree with.

Where we diverge is on two counts. One, I don't think Kova, even with his improvement in form this season, would have got in ahead of Maka, Lampard, Essien, Ballack etc. And two I don't bring up Essien, now or ever, as a direct comparison with Kova. They are completely different players. No, I bring Essien up as the sort of player I believe we need to add to our midfield to make us better, to give us more energy, dynamism, size, strength, physicality because IMO we are crying out for that in our central midfield and it shows in games like last night. I think most people who have followed my posts on this understand my point, even if they don't agree with it.

We are a side still in transition with Frank trying to find the right pieces and to fit them together. By the start of next season I really don't think Kovacic and Jorginho will be our starting central midfield pairing. Time will tell. But IMO I think Frank realises we have a soft centre there and need to add some physical presence. RLC would add size, height and strength but, like Barkley, he doesn't seem blessed with natural athleticism. @big blue I think suggested a central pivot of RLC and Kova which we might see at some point before the end of the season.

 

I agree with you about physicality etc. In fact I've said previously I'd like to see James given a chance in the DM role, and I said at the start of the season I'd have kept Ampadu, specifically for that purpose. I think both are incredible prospects, I think both are preferable to Jorginho, and I think Kovacic would benefit from playing alongside them, because it would give him more freedom.

 

As for Nevin, much as I love him, he enjoys cosy chats with Frank after the games on Chelsea TV, so he can't really be expected to criticise him. Far easier for him to speak of the gap in quality with the players, but there was also a distinct gap in quality in the coaching. I mean that was obvious as hell.

 

It's like this. You have a child. They're brilliant at maths, but the school's not that good and the rest of their classmates are pretty thick, all things considered. Then there's another child, brilliant at maths, goes to an elite school, surrounded by swots, taught by Nobel prize-winning professors. Both classes go head-to-head in a maths competition. Nevin's saying your child isn't brainy enough to get in the clever class.

 

If you have a child and their crap at maths, please forgive me. It's a poor analogy.

1 hour ago, Vagabond said:

He is better than Jorginho though. Right?

 

Jorginho was better than him last season, and he only improved all around so Kovacic is still behind but does certain things better than Jorginho.

21 hours ago, just said:

As always Davey an impassioned and well crafted post the majority of which I agree with.

Where we diverge is on two counts. One, I don't think Kova, even with his improvement in form this season, would have got in ahead of Maka, Lampard, Essien, Ballack etc. And two I don't bring up Essien, now or ever, as a direct comparison with Kova. They are completely different players. No, I bring Essien up as the sort of player I believe we need to add to our midfield to make us better, to give us more energy, dynamism, size, strength, physicality because IMO we are crying out for that in our central midfield and it shows in games like last night. I think most people who have followed my posts on this understand my point, even if they don't agree with it.

We are a side still in transition with Frank trying to find the right pieces and to fit them together. By the start of next season I really don't think Kovacic and Jorginho will be our starting central midfield pairing. Time will tell. But IMO I think Frank realises we have a soft centre there and need to add some physical presence. RLC would add size, height and strength but, like Barkley, he doesn't seem blessed with natural athleticism. @big blue I think suggested a central pivot of RLC and Kova which we might see at some point before the end of the season.

 

But you definitely tried to say "he's no Michael Essien" as a point to discredit him, because he's definitely proven you wrong this season. You and numerous others didn't even want to pay the 40 million for him when it was an obvious steal and we had RLC and Kante injured, a transfer ban and a shocking lack of depth in the midfield. Considering how critical you were of him last season, you've barely mentioned anything in the thread this season. When Zouma was proving me wrong at the start of the season I was in his thread praising him and crediting him on his performance. Kovacic is 25, he has a lot of time to improve before you start saying he's not going to get ahead of the likes of Essien, Ballack, Lampard and Maka who had long enough careers here to become heroes and legends. 

Can you not see how weak the argument is? Especially when you don't extend this to players like Barkley who is even older than Kovacic but is somehow getting the Jesse Lingard treatment. 

8 hours ago, Davey Baby said:

 

I agree with you about physicality etc. In fact I've said previously I'd like to see James given a chance in the DM role, and I said at the start of the season I'd have kept Ampadu, specifically for that purpose. I think both are incredible prospects, I think both are preferable to Jorginho, and I think Kovacic would benefit from playing alongside them, because it would give him more freedom.

 

As for Nevin, much as I love him, he enjoys cosy chats with Frank after the games on Chelsea TV, so he can't really be expected to criticise him. Far easier for him to speak of the gap in quality with the players, but there was also a distinct gap in quality in the coaching. I mean that was obvious as hell.

 

It's like this. You have a child. They're brilliant at maths, but the school's not that good and the rest of their classmates are pretty thick, all things considered. Then there's another child, brilliant at maths, goes to an elite school, surrounded by swots, taught by Nobel prize-winning professors. Both classes go head-to-head in a maths competition. Nevin's saying your child isn't brainy enough to get in the clever class.

 

If you have a child and their crap at maths, please forgive me. It's a poor analogy.

I don't see why Kovacic has to be the physical player? And he actually has a good amount of pace and covering to his game. It's almost as if Kovacic has to be a human hybrid of Michael Essien and Pirlo before he meets the criteria of his critics. People forget he's still 25 years of age, last season he was 24 years of age and didn't hit the ground running, so what? He's had a season of experience, this season he looks 5 times the player and we can see why the likes of Inter and Madrid paid good money for him. 

But who do we criticise after the Bayern game? Well our player who performed the best obviously. 

54 minutes ago, Slojo said:

I don't see why Kovacic has to be the physical player? And he actually has a good amount of pace and covering to his game. It's almost as if Kovacic has to be a human hybrid of Michael Essien and Pirlo before he meets the criteria of his critics. People forget he's still 25 years of age, last season he was 24 years of age and didn't hit the ground running, so what? He's had a season of experience, this season he looks 5 times the player and we can see why the likes of Inter and Madrid paid good money for him. 

But who do we criticise after the Bayern game? Well our player who performed the best obviously. 

To be fair, Slojo, Davey doesn’t seem to be saying Kovacic himself needs to be more physical, just that maybe the other CM should be. He’s also one of Kovacic’s key advocates on here though I suspect you know that and maybe I misinterpreted your post?