35 minutes ago, dkw said:

Those Anitfa idiots are as bad as the Fascists, any extremists are dangerous morons. they have decided they are judge, juror and executioner and use violence to stop something they oppose, the same as any other extremists yet claim to be in the right....the same as any other extremists. Violence will always only ever lead to more violence.

 

Basically what I said, but been corrected that Antifa are only there because there are Fascists, so that’s okay.

As usual the left shout down anyone who is remotely centre or to the right as closet fascists, and always shout louder or post links to really long rambling YouTubes.

 

Hope the powers that be are able to make a firm statement on the guy who’s been banned in near future, as at present still not clear what he actually said... Although personnaly I think calling someone a C when you know they can’t react for fear of being sent off, banned or fined, is well below the belt.

 

My last post on this topic, can’t be arsed debating that I’m not a fascist any more.

The banana incident should be national news. The judge found there was a clear premediated action to throw a banana if a black player scored.

This is repugnant behaviour and has no place in our game.

Yet the attention given to Chelsea feels disproportionate given recent events.

The Manc Hunt incident a point in question.

Chelsea have an established rivalry with Tottenham Hotspur. The source of this rivalry was not anti-sematic but those of us who went to games in the 80s will remember only too well some of the ugliest chants known to human hears as the rivalry evolved into racially driven motives.

The current Y word references are more ambiguous and because Tottenham fans themselves use the expression the boundaries are blurred.

That said, it needs to be removed from the vernacular of Chelsea supporters and we must accept that other fans can behave worse than us and still not get the negative publicity we induce. The Y word has had its time and for many is highly offensive.

1 hour ago, coco said:

Throwing a Banana skin at a black player on the pitch is just about as racist as you can be in a football ground.

It would of made a great incident for the media to run their anti-racism campaign. 

Rio Ferdinand, lip reader extraordinaire, Dec 2nd (Banana incident) no mention of it on his twitter, on the day or in the following days.

Dec 8th (chels v man city) Ferdinand lip reads the Chelsea fan and starts the whole process running.

If i was the fan who lost his job for shouting Manc c**t, i would be getting some serious lawyers behind me and going after Ferdinand.

Good point regarding going legal. Character defermation, distress, loss of earnings.

The fella concerned will never work in communications again. Any potential employer will be petrified of negative brand image association.

( No doubt the Guardian would dig around and have a headline “ Race Storm Chelsea Fan now employed by Mercury Communications” etc etc.)

His plight is akin to someone who suffers deterrent sentencing- ie gets disproportionate bird for an offence because the authorities want to send out a message. All well and good for society unless your the poor sod being made an example of to put others off.

All this for behaviour no worse than occurs every Saturday up and down the country.

Edit: I haven’t got an ST. Presumably you can have it taken away for foul and abusive behaviour? So technically the club could be justified, then again if they applied this to the letter of the law they’d be playing in an empty stadium.

Edited December 19, 20187 yr by Ewell CFC

7 hours ago, kiwi1691 said:

Had to correct your error. 

 

Left wing means big government and anti-freedom

Right wing small government and pro-freedom

The furthest left you can go in terms of government is anarchy (zero government, absolute freedom), and the furthest right is dictatorship (absolute government, zero freedom). So that's not right. 

2 hours ago, Shug said:

links to really long rambling YouTubes.

Like that crank Jordan Peterson, the stupid person's smart person. 

Apparently a Chelsea fan has been charged with homophobic abuse during the Brighton game. Don’t the media know we’re all rent boys?

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11668/11585884/chelsea-fan-charged-with-shouting-homophobic-abuse-during-brighton-match

I wonder if the media will report Chelsea Rent Boy chants against our players.

35 minutes ago, The Swan said:

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11668/11585884/chelsea-fan-charged-with-shouting-homophobic-abuse-during-brighton-match

I wonder if the media will report Chelsea Rent Boy chants against our players.

Unlikely they probably been stopped from reporting on VIP links with rent boys hence the media silence.

I know from looking into the alternative political scene.

2 hours ago, Ready Player One said:

The furthest left you can go in terms of government is anarchy (zero government, absolute freedom), and the furthest right is dictatorship (absolute government, zero freedom). So that's not right. 

Like that crank Jordan Peterson, the stupid person's smart person. 

Well said! I watched the YouTube that someone posted of Jordan Peterson and a presenter whose name escapes me. What a vile pair of self-satisfied twats. He started his self promoting ramble by announcing that "Thinking is offensive ..." No, you f**kwit, thinking is silent. It is your hatred inciting loud expression of your foul thoughts that is offensive!

6 hours ago, dkw said:

Those Anitfa idiots are as bad as the Fascists, any extremists are dangerous morons. they have decided they are judge, juror and executioner and use violence to stop something they oppose, the same as any other extremists yet claim to be in the right....the same as any other extremists. Violence will always only ever lead to more violence.

 

Hate to get all political on this catastrophic thread but what the hell... 

Did you see the way they were assaulting people for going to see Ben Shapiro at a University? Someone went undercover and caught two Antifa members who were trying to smuggle guns in the hall so they could kill him, they're now arrested. Utterly ridiculous how anyone can be apologetic to that mob, they aren't fighting fascists, they're just fighting people who disagree with them violently. When you're going around calling liberals like Sam Harris fascists and nazi's then you know there's something wrong, their definitions of fascist are broadening to suit their agenda. 

But this is what happens with every label, just like how on TalkSport, their response to the Sterling incident was to go off the rails and accuse United fans of being racist to Lukaku because apparently calling a black player lazy is being racist due to some stereotype. What's ironic about that is the bigotry of low expectations, and creating this strawmanned stereotype yourself to argue against. Lukaku gets criticised because he used to be athletic and now he has become lethargic and lazy, he admitted it himself that he regrets bulking up too much. 

At the end of the day, we're all going to have different opinions, we just have to be sensible about it, I avoid from talking about politics on this forum because I know things can get hostile very quickly. If I only spoke to people who have the same political opinions as me I would have about 4 friends. 

2 hours ago, Ready Player One said:

The furthest left you can go in terms of government is anarchy (zero government, absolute freedom), and the furthest right is dictatorship (absolute government, zero freedom). So that's not right. 

Like that crank Jordan Peterson, the stupid person's smart person. 

 

18 minutes ago, moi said:

Well said! I watched the YouTube that someone posted of Jordan Peterson and a presenter whose name escapes me. What a vile pair of self-satisfied twats. He started his self promoting ramble by announcing that "Thinking is offensive ..." No, you f**kwit, thinking is silent. It is your hatred inciting loud expression of your foul thoughts that is offensive!

 

 

Not even remotely true in the slightest... left wing and right wing have evolved over time but even traditionally today in the last 70 years left wing means bigger government, right wing is for less. Left wing requires heavy statism, that's what the likes of Corbyn and Bernie Sanders want, more Government regulation, so to say that the right can only correlate with dictatorship is completely asinine... 

The pair of you calling Peterson a moron while simultaneously thinking left wing means less government is quite amusing I must say... You're conflating liberalism with left wing and conservatism with right wing. 

Would you actually say Milton Friedman is left wing because he strongly opposes Government? He's a true liberal, but he's definitely not left wing by any measure, he's a full blown pro-capitalist.  

Edited December 19, 20187 yr by Slojo

Well, I think you're all wrong. Both left and right can be either libertarian or authoritarian leaning.

I have never watched any of Peterson's stuff because I know he would just make me very annoyed.

1 minute ago, bluedave said:

Well, I think you're all wrong. Both left and right can be either libertarian or authoritarian leaning.

I have never watched any of Peterson's stuff because I know he would just make me very annoyed.

That's exactly what I've just said though, you can't conflate liberalism with left wing. You can be right wing and liberal, most Reagan type Conservatives are very right wing and liberal. 

And why not? Broaden your mind, Peterson isn't all that bad he makes some good points, hearts in the right place. I don't agree with any of his religious views mind, it's like Sam Harris, I love listening to Sam on many things but there's a lot of things I heavily disagree with him on in regards to Government and foreign policy. 

I also watch Kyle Kulinski who I think is very objective and fair even though I disagree with 90% of what he says, the only people I wouldn't watch are the likes of crazy conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones and those lying reactionary hacks like Cenk Uygur.  

On 16/12/2018 at 01:44, Hazzy_B said:

half my family and friends are dead/wounded from serving, I served 11 years. No one has 'symbolic' gun tattoos. That is absolute BS.

Kanye west level dumb ass

hes a footballer not bloody che guevara! 

Ill criticise anyone i want. Who are you to tell me that lmao?

All you do is criticise everyone and thing about players and the club looking at your posts.

thanks for attacking me out of nowhere, How constructive! YAWN

I know my mate Hazzy is sadly banned now (shame, was a lovely chap) but I’ll respond anyway.

Just because this person allegedly knows people who have lost friends/family through serving in the armed forces and none of them have a symbolic gun tattoos (though tattoos relating to serving your country aren’t exactly unheard of) doesn’t negate Sterling’s motivations for getting his tattoo.

I never told Hazzy me ol’ China he couldn’t criticise people just that his opinions were stupid.

Having asked what rappers had to do with Sterling and then to get a reply telling me I was “Kanye West level dumb ass” I can’t help thinking Hazzy might not be too keen on successful black men, sorry I mean rappers. 

8 minutes ago, Slojo said:

That's exactly what I've just said though, you can't conflate liberalism with left wing. You can be right wing and liberal, most Reagan type Conservatives are very right wing and liberal?. 

And why not? Broaden your mind, Peterson isn't all that bad he makes some good points, hearts in the right place. I don't agree with any of his religious views mind, it's like Sam Harris, I love listening to Sam on many things but there's a lot of things I heavily disagree with him on in regards to Government and foreign policy. 

I also watch Kyle Kulinski who I think is very objective and fair even though I disagree with 90% of what he says, the only people I wouldn't watch are the likes of crazy conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones and those lying reactionary hacks like Cenk Uygur.  

You were arguing against Ready Player One who was arguing against that Kiwi guy, who actually stated very clearly:

"Left wing means big government and anti-freedom

Right wing small government and pro-freedom"

And then you said:

"In the last 70 years left wing means bigger government, right wing is for less.? Left wing requires heavy statism, that's what the likes of Corbyn and Bernie Sanders want, more Government regulation".

So you'll have to forgive me for making any assumptions.

I have listened to Sam Harris by the way and found him to be an extremely unpleasant man.

3 minutes ago, Slojo said:

lying reactionary hacks

In your opinion 

But, seriously, I think we all get too hung up on the left/right communist/capitalist labels.  In my mind, it's simple, really. 

Are you a person who cares about others, is blind to race, colour, creed or sexual orientation, wants for the less well off to be assisted by those who have, is not afraid of other people simply because they are different or are you a twat person who is more concerned with your own wellbeing to the detriment of others, is fearful and distrustful of people from different races, orientations or backgrounds, is happy for there to be the need for food banks and for people to be forced to sleep in bus-shelters as long as it's not outside your house, and are quite content to see your own government supplying arms to truly disgusting regimes for them to use against primary schools.

Simple choice, easily made.

3 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

In your opinion 

But, seriously, I think we all get too hung up on the left/right communist/capitalist labels.  In my mind, it's simple, really. 

Are you a person who cares about others, is blind to race, colour, creed or sexual orientation, wants for the less well off to be assisted by those who have, is not afraid of other people simply because they are different or are you a twat person who is more concerned with your own wellbeing to the detriment of others, is fearful and distrustful of people from different races, orientations or backgrounds, is happy for there to be the need for food banks and for people to be forced to sleep in bus-shelters as long as it's not outside your house, and are quite content to see your own government supplying arms to truly disgusting regimes for them to use against primary schools.

Simple choice, easily made.

Come on you don't think Cenk is good do you? That guy makes me embarrassed to call myself a Turk sometimes, he still denies the Armenian genocide happened, that's worse than what Alex Jones did with the Sandy Hook shooting. 

And you're correct, left/right wing can be purely subjective really but stereotypically it's always been left wing = pro government, right wing = less government for the past 60 years or so, before that right wing was pro monarch then you could make a point. Some people conflate right wing and left wing with nationalism or anti nationalism, or liberalism and authoritarianism and I think they're both horribly wrong. 

I just don't like when people have their own version of it, my side is good, your side is bad etc. 

10 minutes ago, bluedave said:

You were arguing against Ready Player One who was arguing against that Kiwi guy, who actually stated very clearly:

"Left wing means big government and anti-freedom

Right wing small government and pro-freedom"

And then you said:

"In the last 70 years left wing means bigger government, right wing is for less.? Left wing requires heavy statism, that's what the likes of Corbyn and Bernie Sanders want, more Government regulation".

So you'll have to forgive me for making any assumptions.

I have listened to Sam Harris by the way and found him to be an extremely unpleasant man.

The use of words "anti-freedom" is completely subjective that I agree on, bigger government doesn't necessarily mean less freedom but from a public v private standpoint it does. 

And I don't know how anyone can call Harris an unpleasant man, he's one of the most laidback people I've ever seen, he's taken a crazy amount of heat off people and still been respectful, what about him is unpleasant? 

When Slojo says "he hates to get political" what he really means is, he'll make 50 new posts strictly about politics. 

5 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Come on you don't think Cenk is good do you? That guy makes me embarrassed to call myself a Turk sometimes, he still denies the Armenian genocide happened, that's worse than what Alex Jones did with the Sandy Hook shooting. 

And you're correct, left/right wing can be purely subjective really but stereotypically it's always been left wing = pro government, right wing = less government for the past 60 years or so, before that right wing was pro monarch then you could make a point. Some people conflate right wing and left wing with nationalism or anti nationalism, or liberalism and authoritarianism and I think they're both horribly wrong. 

I just don't like when people have their own version of it, my side is good, your side is bad etc. 

Sorry, that was my joke that went flying over about all of the various arseholes you mentioned.

My point is that the governments are what governments are, totally self-serving politicians of whichever end of the spectrum.  We had people earlier claiming Stalinist Russia and Red China were left-wing governments instead of a fascist dictatorship and a tyrannical collectivism.  Ultimately, people are either community-oriented or self-centred to varying degrees.  Where you fit in that spectrum defines what sort of character you are.  If people have a need to define that, lazily, in my opinion, as left and right, then so be it.  To me it's people who care and people  who don't.  That's all there is to it.

10 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

Sorry, that was my joke that went flying over about all of the various arseholes you mentioned.

My point is that the governments are what governments are, totally self-serving politicians of whichever end of the spectrum.  We had people earlier claiming Stalinist Russia and Red China were left-wing governments instead of a fascist dictatorship and a tyrannical collectivism.  Ultimately, people are either community-oriented or self-centred to varying degrees.  Where you fit in that spectrum defines what sort of character you are.  If people have a need to define that, lazily, in my opinion, as left and right, then so be it.  To me it's people who care and people  who don't.  That's all there is to it.

I don't think it's that black and white, "people who care and people who don't" is really down to opinion, some people can do good things for the wrong reasons, some people can be strongly naive and bring down a whole wall full of trouble but their heart was in the right place. 

You're definitely right though Russia and China were fascist dictatorships but they were still communists, it's not to say that people who support communism is the same as people who support Nazism, because that's not true. Supporting something like Nazism which is a lot more specific than Communism is just disgusting. People who support Communism and Socialism can do so for the right reasons but like I said on my earlier points, strongly naive and brings down a whole wall full of trouble, wherever a Government has had that much control it has inevitably lead to a dictatorship. 

It's always been a case of who watches the watchers? Putting a crown on a man has never created an equal society or anything close to that of what we've got from current Western civilisation which certainly has its downfalls. I don't mean to completely compare feudality to communism but you get my point, greed always conquers, capitalism has just managed to put human greed to it's best mutually benefited uses. I think you get selfish people on both sides, people on both sides who are honest and liars, people on the right will probably tend to look more callous, but you will also find people on the left that will pander but their intentions are not as pure as they're suggesting. 

34 minutes ago, Slojo said:

The use of words "anti-freedom" is completely subjective that I agree on, bigger government doesn't necessarily mean less freedom but from a public v private standpoint it does. 

And I don't know how anyone can call Harris an unpleasant man, he's one of the most laidback people I've ever seen, he's taken a crazy amount of heat off people and still been respectful, what about him is unpleasant? 

2

I listened to a podcast he did about Israel/Palestine, which he presented as being a completely reasonable discussion of the situation and I was genuinely hoping to learn something, but in reality was just him painting the Palestinians as insane, homicidal animals because of ISLAM that need to be stopped and the Israeli's as innocent victims of Palestinian aggression. There's only one type of person who believes the situation is as simple as that. I also read something he wrote that justified a pre-emptive nuclear strike in the event that anybody in the Middle East ever becomes a nuclear power. My exposure to him has been small (by my own choice) but there are clearly a lot of people who find him to be abhorrent.

7 hours ago, dkw said:

Those Anitfa idiots are as bad as the Fascists, any extremists are dangerous morons. they have decided they are judge, juror and executioner and use violence to stop something they oppose, the same as any other extremists yet claim to be in the right....the same as any other extremists. Violence will always only ever lead to more violence.

 

Except you're wrong. As I tried to point it out to someone else here already, the two groups were never and will never be equal.
The only way to really get someones attention is through real protest where violence happens, if you're just walking around like sheep nobody will care to change anything for you, but like I already posted, if you are defending the fascist movements or nazi movements (which you are doing if you say that both are equally at the wrong just like Donald Trump said because he knows a lot of racists are his voters) you are actually leaning towards the far right in all case scenarios.

Just now, bluedave said:

I listened to a podcast he did about Israel/Palestine, which he presented as being a completely reasonable discussion of the situation and I was genuinely hoping to learn something, but in reality was just him painting the Palestinians as insane, homicidal animals because of ISLAM that need to be stopped and the Israeli's as innocent victims of Palestinian aggression. There's only one type of person who believes the situation is as simple as that. I also read something he wrote that justified a pre-emptive nuclear strike in the event that anybody in the Middle East ever becomes a nuclear power. My exposure to him has been small (by my own choice) but there are clearly a lot of people who find him to be abhorrent.

He and Hitchens were against any theocratical government having Nuclear Missiles, I think that's pretty damn fair with all things considered, I whole heartedly agree. 

I agree with Sam a lot on Israel/Palestine, Sam opposes religion so he will have that sentiment against Islam (so do I btw), and he is right given how Hamas has completely taken control... But I'm not going to get into all that due to the complexity of the issue, the whole Israel and Palestine debate is an absolute firestarter. 

Anyway despite all that I would seriously recommend you give his podcasts a listen, he's actually very fair and holds back quite a lot. I don't think one can call him an unpleasant individual, not with the amount of guests of all different backgrounds and opinions he's given airtime to and has never misrepresented them. 

He holds back a lot on this discussion and is very respectful towards Deeyah who keeps using anecdotes to combat his studies, I don't have an issue with you disagreeing with him I just don't think he's unpleasant even if you're entitled to that opinion. 

2 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

The only way to really get someones attention is through real protest where violence happens,

If you truly believe that then there is no reason to discuss this further with you. An incredibly stupid notion.

Also, f**k you with saying I`m defending the fascists or Nazis in any way, this is a disgusting thing for you to claim simply because you disagree with me.

Edited December 19, 20187 yr by dkw

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

Except you're wrong. As I tried to point it out to someone else here already, the two groups were never and will never be equal.
The only way to really get someones attention is through real protest where violence happens, if you're just walking around like sheep nobody will care to change anything for you, but like I already posted, if you are defending the fascist movements or nazi movements (which you are doing if you say that both are equally at the wrong just like Donald Trump said because he knows a lot of racists are his voters) you are actually leaning towards the far right in all case scenarios.

 

I can already see that you're one post away from calling DKW an alt right racist. 

Calling somebody a fascist doesn't make you correct, and Antifa gets this wrong about 90% of the time. This is literally Antifa in a nut shell...