2 minutes ago, RMH said:

You mean like we tried with Lukaku? Because we’ve tried getting someone to score goals before and hasn’t worked. I’m not against selling him, but I’d rather see Lukaku go than Werner. For me, it’s more important to get rid of Lukaku as he doesn’t fit the system, and hopefully next season Broja can come back and become the next Costa, he’s showing at Southampton everything that we need.

It hasn't worked because we bought the wrong player with the wrong attitude and serious flaws in his game. Do you think Kane has better players around him at Spurs? And yet he looks twice the player Romelu is. Swap those two and we improve instantly. I'm not saying we had a chance to get Kane, just using him as a good example, similar age, same position, same league, but what a difference in quality.

Ideally, I'd sell Timo and RL both. I had hopes for Werner to improve in his second season but sadly I think he just doesn't have what it takes to succeed in a top side. Lukaku move had a disaster written all over right from the start.

Obviously, it's much easier said than done. Werner is easier to move due to age and him being prolific in Bundesliga the last time he was there. Lukaku's too greedy to take a massive pay cut which would be a must even if we could find a taker. In any scenario we're likely to take a loss, in Lukaku's case it's likely to be huge. We massively overpaid for him to begin with, but at this point his value is at the very bottom.

In reality, we're probably stuck with Lukaku for the foreseeable future. It's another one of those big cash transfers that we always get wrong and then as a result end up suffering through season after season.

2 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

All Timos fault? Get real. He played just under 40 mins of the game, and played a meaningful part in our second goal. 

Others on the pitch and who played for a lot longer *cough lukaku cough" would have been significantly more to blame.

 

Obviously it's not all his fault but he will take a share of the blame if we lost but we didn't. 

So not his fault. We all pretty much agree that Lukaku was a waste of space yesterday

15 minutes ago, RMH said:

I disagree that he was worse than Lukaku. He got himself into positions (ok, he did not go to the 50/50 ball, which I think he would have got to before the defender last season and shows he is out of form for whatever reason), got involved in the goal and pressed more than Lukaku. What did Lukaku offer? Ziyech kept putting good crosses into the box and he was nowhere to be seen. Missed a tap in and got nullified by the League one defenders every single time. Werner looks like either he doesn’t want to be here (much like every single one of our attackers bar Mount), or like he has lost some match fitness due to covid and not getting playing time. The fact that the fastest attacker in the league got beaten to the ball at least twice by the Plymouth defenders, and what you mention about taking too long to shoot, indicates that he is not fully match fit.

Lukaku setup Kovacic twice for the bar and post hits and Mount for a crazy save from Cooper and he also played the ball to Werner that didn't want it. Both had a bad game but Werner was objectively worse than Lukaku because Lukaku could have had multiple assists.

It was obvious that Werner suffered from a huge confidence loss before but he looks like he's now in an even worse state. At the very least he should be hyped enough to use his pace but he's not even trying to improve and that's a red flag. What is going on in his mind is what makes him bad, I saw him waiting for the ball in the box and when he got it he just tried to take a very obvious shot that was blocked and this happened at least twice!

Taking a piss at a given opportunity is depressing and with that attitude he has no future at this club. Ziyech had some tough games but you see in his attitude that he is at the very least confident that he can do something good with the ball, CHO was yelled at and he kept working hard for his spot, Jorginho was booed and he kept fighting for his spot too... Werner just looks depressing at this point and that's after both Lampard and Tuchel gave him a lot of trust and he's simply not good enough.

2 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

Yes ... it would have been all Werner's fault ... the 11 starters and the 2 subs who came on before Werner did (in the 81st minute) ... who had about 35 chances to score before Werner was even on the pitch ... sure ... they had nothing to do with it at all ... 

My reply is the same as above. Not his fault now that we go through but he would have shared the blame if we got eliminated

Edited February 6, 20224 yr by Deino

2 hours ago, abramovich said:

It hasn't worked because we bought the wrong player with the wrong attitude and serious flaws in his game. Do you think Kane has better players around him at Spurs? And yet he looks twice the player Romelu is. Swap those two and we improve instantly. I'm not saying we had a chance to get Kane, just using him as a good example, similar age, same position, same league, but what a difference in quality.

Ideally, I'd sell Timo and RL both. I had hopes for Werner to improve in his second season but sadly I think he just doesn't have what it takes to succeed in a top side. Lukaku move had a disaster written all over right from the start.

Obviously, it's much easier said than done. Werner is easier to move due to age and him being prolific in Bundesliga the last time he was there. Lukaku's too greedy to take a massive pay cut which would be a must even if we could find a taker. In any scenario we're likely to take a loss, in Lukaku's case it's likely to be huge. We massively overpaid for him to begin with, but at this point his value is at the very bottom.

In reality, we're probably stuck with Lukaku for the foreseeable future. It's another one of those big cash transfers that we always get wrong and then as a result end up suffering through season after season.

Yeah, I don’t disagree with you in principle, but the only realistic forward available was Lukaku, so the best option was to stick our guns with Werner and Havertz, and either keep Tammy or try out Broja, who’s turning out to be at Saints what we are lacking. But as I said before, I think Werner suits better to our style than Lukaku, and if we were to sell one, I’d rather see Lukaku go as he’s forcing us to change a style that gave us the CL while Werner was a part of that style. And I think that the signs are there that Werner is lacking match fitness and he could do with a run of games, as also would Havertz.

3 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

But nobody else played the pass! Ziyech didnt, Kova didnt, Lukaku didnt, CHO didnt. I would love to praise all our places for simple passes that lead to us scroing goals, but they didn't make any....

Football is a simple game. Our players generally struggle with the simple stuff.

 

Lukaku did, to Werner, who sh*t himself.

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Lukaku setup Kovacic twice for the bar and post hits and Mount for a crazy save from Cooper and he also played the ball to Werner that didn't want it. Both had a bad game but Werner was objectively worse than Lukaku because Lukaku could have had multiple assists.

It was obvious that Werner suffered from a huge confidence loss before but he looks like he's now in an even worse state. At the very least he should be hyped enough to use his pace but he's not even trying to improve and that's a red flag. What is going on in his mind is what makes him bad, I saw him waiting for the ball in the box and when he got it he just tried to take a very obvious shot that was blocked and this happened at least twice!

Taking a piss at a given opportunity is depressing and with that attitude he has no future at this club. Ziyech had some tough games but you see in his attitude that he is at the very least confident that he can do something good with the ball, CHO was yelled at and he kept working hard for his spot, Jorginho was booed and he kept fighting for his spot too... Werner just looks depressing at this point and that's after both Lampard and Tuchel gave him a lot of trust and he's simply not good enough.

Again, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I think that Werner had marginally better attitude than Lukaku. We can blame Werner for not getting his foot in, Lukaku was never near enough the space to be in a 50/50 situation. Ziyech kept crossing into dangerous areas of the box and Lukaku could only wave his arms in annoyance rather than getting into position. But all this is a matter of opinion. Overall I think we should have beat them comfortably if it wasn’t for the bar and post, and for how bad we are up front. But we were the better team though only went through thanks to Kepa’s penalty save. And that’s the beauty of the early stages of the cup. As I write, Forest is thrashing Leicester 4-1 and being superior, who would have thought!

12 minutes ago, RMH said:

Again, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I think that Werner had marginally better attitude than Lukaku. We can blame Werner for not getting his foot in, Lukaku was never near enough the space to be in a 50/50 situation. Ziyech kept crossing into dangerous areas of the box and Lukaku could only wave his arms in annoyance rather than getting into position. But all this is a matter of opinion. Overall I think we should have beat them comfortably if it wasn’t for the bar and post, and for how bad we are up front. But we were the better team though only went through thanks to Kepa’s penalty save. And that’s the beauty of the early stages of the cup. As I write, Forest is thrashing Leicester 4-1 and being superior, who would have thought!

If it was any other player coming in when the team needs a goal and being mostly lost and just taking lazy shots that anyone from League One can block and then not even bothering to run the counter (which should be his biggest asset) would you still think that his attitude was better than of Lukaku? Maybe I just expected more, I thought that the two of them would become good partners in attack but both look depressing...

49 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

If it was any other player coming in when the team needs a goal and being mostly lost and just taking lazy shots that anyone from League One can block and then not even bothering to run the counter (which should be his biggest asset) would you still think that his attitude was better than of Lukaku? Maybe I just expected more, I thought that the two of them would become good partners in attack but both look depressing...

For me at the moment anything is better than Lukaku, if only because Lukaku stops us playing and progressing with our style of football. And, I can see that Werner is shot in confidence and fitness, and maybe a run of games can improve him, unlike what we’ve seen with Lukaku’s untouchable status. Havertz did not do much either, and I’d still play him (over Werner, tbh). For me we need to try for a few games a front 3 of CHO Havertz Mount, or Werner Havertz Mount.

2 hours ago, dkw said:

Lukaku did, to Werner, who sh*t himself.

Nope - The big lump cocked up that pass up as well.

What should have been a simple straight pass into Timo's path, was horribly overhit.  That's not just my opinion, but was also reflected in the match chat ("that pass from Lukaku was garbage", and, "You can't blame Timo for that, it was a shocking pass from Rom") and also reflected in the press post match reviews ("The former Inter Milan’s pass was marginally overhit and wasn’t directly into Werner’s path" and "He never truly threatened to score despite spending all 120 minutes on the field and his contribution was best summed up by a horribly overhit pass to Timo Werner in the final minute of normal time.")....So let's not rewrite history here, the pass from Lukaku should have been easy, but turned out to be bloody useless. (https://www.goal.com/en-us/news/anonymous-lukaku-bailed-out-by-alonso-kepa-chelsea-plymouth/blt6b14423ac2c566fc)

That said, it is absolutely fair game to hold Timo accountable for not going all in for that ball...inexcusable, and he should have gone in and taken the inevitable clattering...

Fans reaction says it all....

9 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

Fans reaction says it all....

All that proves is you don’t see all angles when your at the match. Timo saw the challenge and decided he didn’t fancy it.

1 hour ago, charierre said:

All that proves is you don’t see all angles when your at the match. Timo saw the challenge and decided he didn’t fancy it.

I had a great view from the Gods (my eyes hadn’t frozen over) it for me it was both a late, sh*te pass and a bottle job. I think Timo was surprised when Lukaku did finally pass the ball - he’d given up on that happening 5 minutes previous. 

3 hours ago, charierre said:

All that proves is you don’t see all angles when your at the match. Timo saw the challenge and decided he didn’t fancy it.

That's what you call a hospital pass, he would of been 2nd to the ball and probably got clattered.

23 minutes ago, coco said:

That's what you call a hospital pass, he would of been 2nd to the ball and probably got clattered.

Penalty all day long. He's favourite to the ball, also noted by the commentators but pulled out. Lukaku is very much the topic of the day for his poor performance quite rightly but Timo was just as bad on Saturday.

4 hours ago, Munkworth said:

I had a great view from the Gods (my eyes hadn’t frozen over) it for me it was both a late, sh*te pass and a bottle job. I think Timo was surprised when Lukaku did finally pass the ball - he’d given up on that happening 5 minutes previous. 

Not so sure on the late pass…Timo kept onside

2 hours ago, coco said:

That's what you call a hospital pass, he would of been 2nd to the ball and probably got clattered.

Come on, no way is that a hospital pass in the slightest. It was maybe slightly over hit but every single top level player in the world would want to go for a ball like that. The mental gymnastics to give Werner some kind of allowance is ridiculous.

2 minutes ago, dkw said:

Come on, no way is that a hospital pass in the slightest. It was maybe slightly over hit but every single top level player in the world would want to go for a ball like that. The mental gymnastics to give Werner some kind of allowance is ridiculous.

If it had been the opposite way around Lukaku would have been slaughtered for shirking the challenge. As it is Timo gets a bye for his poor technique,finishing and getting offside a lot simply cos he runs around a lot ( something I tend to do myself…that’s the bye I’m way passed running).

2 hours ago, coco said:

That's what you call a hospital pass, he would of been 2nd to the ball and probably got clattered.

I thought his pace was elite level, if he used it like he did in Bundesliga no League One player would stand a chance... Let's be real even if the pass wasn't 100% accurate most strikers would kill for an opportunity like that. Werner lost all of the killer instinct he once had in Bundesliga.

What if Werner thought "Well, I'll be on the bench for who knows how long anyway, might as well play another 30 minutes in extra-time"? 

But seriously, I get that's an awful look that the only thing going on for him (effort) wasn't there in this chance, but I'd gladly give him a slack all things considered and mentioned already, and maybe unconsciously he was afraid of getting hurt and missing yet another large chunk of the season and thus being unable to prove his worth.

We all know too well what confidence does to someone (ahem, Kepa) so it's no wonder the guy is completely out of his comfort zone. No surprise that I'd take him over Lukaku as well, just hoping Timo gets his sh*t together, even a little bit would already help us a lot. 

14 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I thought his pace was elite level, if he used it like he did in Bundesliga no League One player would stand a chance... Let's be real even if the pass wasn't 100% accurate most strikers would kill for an opportunity like that. Werner lost all of the killer instinct he once had in Bundesliga.

IN out in out in out, give him a run, sick of seeing the lazy big fraud up front.

26 minutes ago, charierre said:

If it had been the opposite way around Lukaku would have been slaughtered for shirking the challenge. As it is Timo gets a bye for his poor technique,finishing and getting offside a lot simply cos he runs around a lot ( something I tend to do myself…that’s the bye I’m way passed running).

The same Lukaku who never lunged for the ball in the 6yd box with an open goal, yeah your right he will get slaughtered 

32 minutes ago, dkw said:

Come on, no way is that a hospital pass in the slightest. It was maybe slightly over hit but every single top level player in the world would want to go for a ball like that. The mental gymnastics to give Werner some kind of allowance is ridiculous.

He's been in/out of the team and mainly sat on the bench for weeks, the least we could do is give him a run of games and leave the big joker on the bench for a change.

23 hours ago, RMH said:

I disagree that he was worse than Lukaku.

What many aren't factoring is even if he was (i agree was wasn't) he's getting held to account for his performances whereas Lukaku is getting rewarded with 90 minutes (or 120 in this case) every week.

1 hour ago, charierre said:

If it had been the opposite way around Lukaku would have been slaughtered for shirking the challenge. 

It has been the opposite way round many times in the last few weeks and almost always there was a core group (including pundits) blaming the "service" to Lukaku.

1 hour ago, charierre said:

If it had been the opposite way around Lukaku would have been slaughtered for shirking the challenge. As it is Timo gets a bye for his poor technique,finishing and getting offside a lot simply cos he runs around a lot ( something I tend to do myself…that’s the bye I’m way passed running).

Big difference being that Timo hasn't had a decent run of games nor has he talked sh*t about the club and coach or complained while he's been sitting on the bench watching Lukaku contribute nothing and even removing fluidity and pressing from the team. If Timo had been playing continuously and/or given an interview bad mouthing the club and coach, while contributing zilch to the team, I'd be all over him too.

4 hours ago, charierre said:

Not so sure on the late pass…Timo kept onside

Yeah Timo was still onside (which in itself is a minor miracle) when the pass came but from my view up in fancy pants Westview I though Lukaku had the chance to slide it through earlier (at a better angle) but wanted to try and beat the defender in front of him instead. Once he realised that wasn’t happening (maybe 2/3 seconds) he then tried to find Timo. 
 

Anyway - they’re both sh*t for different reasons.