40 minutes ago, abramovich said:

Is he though? Apart from pace and hard work I mean, and vs Plymouth he didn't even offer that. Werner was struggling for goals last season but at least his effort was never in question, he would press like mad, never stop running and work tirelessly for the team. Yesterday he looked like he couldn't be bothered, and that's a worrying sign, He looked like somebody who's realized he can't cut it at that level and wants to go back to Germany where he can still be of use.

Let's not forget that a) he has very seldom played recently and b) when he has played, it is invariably not through the middle.

Personally I am hopeful that c) with a run of games to get him back up to match speed, d) playing in his actual position, e) preferably up top alongside someone else (Kai), that he would at a minimum get back to last seasons levels.... ie, offering work rate, pace, assists and pens - with the odd tap in thrown in.

It has to be worth a go - Rom simply isn't offering ANYTHING and looks like he can't be arsed to even break a sweat.

32 minutes ago, RMH said:

Yes, I think that he is a better player and offers far more to the team than Lukaku, tbh. He’s got his faults but at least works and presses more than Lukaku. Yesterday wasn’t a good performance but I think that he’s lost speed, maybe covid or maybe because he hasn’t played too often lately. On another season he’d have got to that ball well before the defender, and there was another occasion when he also lost the sprint to a Plymouth defender. He would have beaten the defender in speed last season easily. I think he should get a run of games ahead of Lukaku.

This last game he was the only one worse than Lukaku though. Looks like he gives up as soon as he's around the ball, a few times someone else set him up in the box and he just wasted balls by taking shots from where he was standing, it took him like 2 seconds to load his shots and it was blocked easily by any given Plymouth player. Lucky that Havertz involved him in the goal, that was a decent through ball but part from that he looked like a League one player.

He looks like he doesn't even want to be here, it really was painful to watch him. And he can only blame himself because both Lampard and Tuchel gave him A LOT of trust.

Edited February 6, 20224 yr by Gol15

Werner was given sympathy for how abysmal shooting and finishing fue to the fact he put in effort in every game. He's not doing that now,  pulling out of a challenge like that is unacceptable and he brings nothing to the team, so can f**k right off.

1 minute ago, dkw said:

Werner was given sympathy for how abysmal shooting and finishing fue to the fact he put in effort in every game. He's not doing that now,  pulling out of a challenge like that is unacceptable and he brings nothing to the team, so can f**k right off.

....and yet as sh*t as he was, he still played a key part in the move for the winning goal. Contributing more to the final score line than the lump did over 120 mins.

as with last season, he may be utter toss, but he still contributes more to the team up front than any other options we have in the centre. Yesterdays winner doesn't happen without him. Champions league final winner doesn't happen without him etc etc etc....

Needs to be given a prolonged run, up top, alongside Kai. Final roll, see how it goes. It can't be any worse than the output of the Lump.

I don't give a sh*t about his "key" involvement in the goal, though one simple pass to a player us pushing it being called key.

Him pulling our of that challenge negates any good he did, and he shouldn't be allowed to start until he proves his commitment to the team. 

46 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Let's not forget that a) he has very seldom played recently and b) when he has played, it is invariably not through the middle.

Personally I am hopeful that c) with a run of games to get him back up to match speed, d) playing in his actual position, e) preferably up top alongside someone else (Kai), that he would at a minimum get back to last seasons levels.... ie, offering work rate, pace, assists and pens - with the odd tap in thrown in.

It has to be worth a go - Rom simply isn't offering ANYTHING and looks like he can't be arsed to even break a sweat.

How about f) selling him in the summer and g) buying somebody who's capable of scoring goals.

7 minutes ago, abramovich said:

How about f) selling him in the summer and g) buying somebody who's capable of scoring goals.

Fine -  I agree it would take a monumental turn around for him to improve to the extent that we would want to keep him, but if he gets a prolonged run in the team and manages to turns it around even just a bit, that that would still see his value increased to where it is now. The flip side is that if he fails, in which case we remain in the same position as we are in now. Nothing to lose. 

What we do with him in the summer is largely irrelevant in any case.

The reality is that we need to get the best out of the team NOW, and it is increasingly clear that Lukaku isn't working.

Therefore, I still maintain that we revert to what worked and helped win us the champions league last season - which is Timo through the middle, preferably not isolated and playing besides Kai, in the hope that he is able to contribute to the team by assisting, winning pens, sometimes scoring and pressing. All things that Lukaku isn't doing.

 

 

59 minutes ago, dkw said:

I don't give a sh*t about his "key" involvement in the goal, though one simple pass to a player us pushing it being called key.

Him pulling our of that challenge negates any good he did, and he shouldn't be allowed to start until he proves his commitment to the team. 

You may not give a sh*t about his secondary assist for the goal, but without his pass, the goal doesn't happen. 

He was crap yesterday- accepted.

He shouldn't have bottled the challenge - accepted.

The guy still looks clueless and broken - accepted.

And yet despite all of that, he STILL played a key role in us winning the game. He makes things happen - which is more than can be said for the big lump. 

 

 

As much as i also think Werner should be given a run through the centre with Lukaku benched, I'm not sure his role in the goal tells you much.

You could argue that if he hadn't pussied out of his chance and finished a very straight forward chance then Lukaku would have an assist to his name.

To be fair he cost less than half of what was paid for Lukaku, and he had the same number of touches as Lukaku did yesterday despite only coming on as an 81st minute sub, so he is at least trying to get involved.

If it is a straight choice of who to stick with, then I'll take Werner, but to be honest at this point I would be trying to sell both of them (plus Pulisic) for whatever we can get, and put some trust in Havertz and Broja.

Edited February 6, 20224 yr by Sexyfootball

13 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Fine -  I agree it would take a monumental turn around for him to improve to the extent that we would want to keep him, but if he gets a prolonged run in the team and manages to turns it around even just a bit, that that would still see his value increased to where it is now. The flip side is that if he fails, in which case we remain in the same position as we are in now. Nothing to lose. 

What we do with him in the summer is largely irrelevant in any case.

The reality is that we need to get the best out of the team NOW, and it is increasingly clear that Lukaku isn't working.

Therefore, I still maintain that we revert to what worked and helped win us the champions league last season - which is Timo through the middle, preferably not isolated and playing besides Kai, in the hope that he is able to contribute to the team by assisting, winning pens, sometimes scoring and pressing. All things that Lukaku isn't doing.

 

 

Oh, I agree about the need to keep playing him. Doesn't matter what we all feel about Werner, Lukaku or any other misfiring attacker on our books. The sad fact is, between now and the end of the season they're all we've got and we have no other choice but try and make the best out of a sh*t situation.

Pulling out of the challenge was inexcusable but given the bad luck with injury that we've had. 

I can't blame him too much. If Plymouth scored that penalty and we go out of the FA Cup then it's his fault. 

28 minutes ago, Deino said:

Pulling out of the challenge was inexcusable but given the bad luck with injury that we've had. 

I can't blame him too much. If Plymouth scored that penalty and we go out of the FA Cup then it's his fault. 

I'd also put some emphasis on the pass, I think perhaps he knew he couldn't get there so eased up and to us it just looked like a lack of effort.

 

54 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

You may not give a sh*t about his secondary assist for the goal, but without his pass, the goal doesn't happen. 

He was crap yesterday- accepted.

He shouldn't have bottled the challenge - accepted.

The guy still looks clueless and broken - accepted.

And yet despite all of that, he STILL played a key role in us winning the game. He makes things happen - which is more than can be said for the big lump. 

 

 

Can't help but agree with Jim about him at least being more productive than Lukaku. Tbh I'm a bit disappointed with the board I know hindsight is 2020 but, we had a winning formula and I know Timo and Kai frustrated last season at times but abandoning the system and investing £100m really had to be a gamble that paid off and it has not. 

Perhaps had we spent more time on the training ground working on finishing with specific individuals rather than whatever is happening now (not denying they don't work on shooting but some individuals need it more than others that's clear).

I think adding an elite goal scorer was needed in the summer, but not one that changed our whole style. When Lukaku was signed a good many complained I backed the board and the coach assuming this is what everyone wanted and that they had a master plan.

Right now it looks like we had a perfectly pieced together jigsaw (the team last year) that we broke up and bought another random puzzle piece to add to the picture which doesn't fit and makes the picture look obsolete and out of place.

59 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

You may not give a sh*t about his secondary assist for the goal, but without his pass, the goal doesn't happen. 

He was crap yesterday- accepted.

He shouldn't have bottled the challenge - accepted.

The guy still looks clueless and broken - accepted.

And yet despite all of that, he STILL played a key role in us winning the game. He makes things happen - which is more than can be said for the big lump. 

 

 

Professional footballer earning 270k per week, can pass the ball in a straight line and we laud him for it. 

37 minutes ago, Deino said:

If Plymouth scored that penalty and we go out of the FA Cup then it's his fault. 

Yes ... it would have been all Werner's fault ... the 11 starters and the 2 subs who came on before Werner did (in the 81st minute) ... who had about 35 chances to score before Werner was even on the pitch ... sure ... they had nothing to do with it at all ... 

15 minutes ago, charierre said:

Professional footballer earning 270k per week, can pass the ball in a straight line and we laud him for it. 

I guess I would rather give credit and reward the fact that Timo actually contributed to the win, playing a meaningful part in the winning goal, rather than closing our eyes and persisting with other professional footballers, playing for the same team, some earning even more, who cannot pass the ball in a straight line or contribute to us scoring.

As easy as the pass may, or may not have been - it was crucial to the goal. 

59 minutes ago, Deino said:

Pulling out of the challenge was inexcusable but given the bad luck with injury that we've had. 

I can't blame him too much. If Plymouth scored that penalty and we go out of the FA Cup then it's his fault. 

All Timos fault? Get real. He played just under 40 mins of the game, and played a meaningful part in our second goal. 

Others on the pitch and who played for a lot longer *cough lukaku cough" would have been significantly more to blame.

 

1 minute ago, nonotnowjim said:

I guess I would rather give credit and reward the fact that Timo actually contributed to the win, playing a meaningful part in the winning goal, rather than closing our eyes and persisting with other professional footballers, playing for the same team, some earning even more, who cannot pass the ball in a straight line or contribute to us scoring.

If you are referring to Lukaku he should have had an actual assist if Werner wasn't such a wuss.

Lukaku was very poor but Werner was a parody yesterday. To such an extent that I think you could pull a random young fan from the stands at he wouldn't do much worse.

22 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Yes ... it would have been all Werner's fault ... the 11 starters and the 2 subs who came on before Werner did (in the 81st minute) ... who had about 35 chances to score before Werner was even on the pitch ... sure ... they had nothing to do with it at all ... 

Clearly not fully his fault if we had lost but it is his fault that he is a bad player overall that couldn't compete against Plymouth, that's a 50m signing at the level of League One.

Can't ignore him just standing still as he gets the ball in the box multiple times and just gets his shots blocked, can't ignore his lack of awareness and poor passing either.

The one thing that he has is pace and he couldn't make anything out of the one chance in which he somehow avoided to be offside?

To be worse than Lukaku is a new low.

 

The only consolation in this is that once we beat Pool to Werner signing they had to go after Jota instead. I bet Klopp is distraught at the thought of what might have been.

1 hour ago, charierre said:

Professional footballer earning 270k per week, can pass the ball in a straight line and we laud him for it. 

Such an embarrassingly low bar that we praise a pass like that made against a league 1 defence.

3 hours ago, abramovich said:

How about f) selling him in the summer and g) buying somebody who's capable of scoring goals.

You mean like we tried with Lukaku? Because we’ve tried getting someone to score goals before and hasn’t worked. I’m not against selling him, but I’d rather see Lukaku go than Werner. For me, it’s more important to get rid of Lukaku as he doesn’t fit the system, and hopefully next season Broja can come back and become the next Costa, he’s showing at Southampton everything that we need.

I for one am happy to give Werner a chance after more game time,I would certainly take him over Lukaku,I feel Tuchel hasn't given Werner or Havertz enough game time,they should be starters all the time.

15 minutes ago, dkw said:

Such an embarrassingly low bar that we praise a pass like that made against a league 1 defence.

But nobody else played the pass! Ziyech didnt, Kova didnt, Lukaku didnt, CHO didnt. I would love to praise all our places for simple passes that lead to us scroing goals, but they didn't make any....

Football is a simple game. Our players generally struggle with the simple stuff.

 

4 hours ago, Gol15 said:

This last game he was the only one worse than Lukaku though. Looks like he gives up as soon as he's around the ball, a few times someone else set him up in the box and he just wasted balls by taking shots from where he was standing, it took him like 2 seconds to load his shots and it was blocked easily by any given Plymouth player. Lucky that Havertz involved him in the goal, that was a decent through ball but part from that he looked like a League one player.

He looks like he doesn't even want to be here, it really was painful to watch him. And he can only blame himself because both Lampard and Tuchel gave him A LOT of trust.

I disagree that he was worse than Lukaku. He got himself into positions (ok, he did not go to the 50/50 ball, which I think he would have got to before the defender last season and shows he is out of form for whatever reason), got involved in the goal and pressed more than Lukaku. What did Lukaku offer? Ziyech kept putting good crosses into the box and he was nowhere to be seen. Missed a tap in and got nullified by the League one defenders every single time. Werner looks like either he doesn’t want to be here (much like every single one of our attackers bar Mount), or like he has lost some match fitness due to covid and not getting playing time. The fact that the fastest attacker in the league got beaten to the ball at least twice by the Plymouth defenders, and what you mention about taking too long to shoot, indicates that he is not fully match fit.