On 18/06/2020 at 16:56, driller97 said:

Agree with this take.

I would argue that for CB that we could bring in someone like Skriniar and offload Zouma instead of Silva.

RB we need to find better back up, RJ definitely should be starting but not sure who is backup outside of maybe Azpi playing there, but he's at the tailend of his career now

He’s only bloody 30😂. James has to be the most overrated player at his current level by our fans. He’s an exceptional talent but he is still very raw and defensively he gets caught out still. 
 

James provides more going forward but Azpi is still a significantly better defender than him. I said we should be starting James against the lower sides for his attacking aspects but against the bigger sides it should be Azpilicueta starting.

On 18/06/2020 at 18:25, Luiz4Chelsea said:

On 18/06/2020 at 16:56, driller97 said:

Agree with this take.
I would argue that for CB that we could bring in someone like Skriniar and offload Zouma instead of Silva.
RB we need to find better back up, RJ definitely should be starting but not sure who is backup outside of maybe Azpi playing there, but he's at the tailend of his career now

There's a strong argument for Reece James being our best RB by now, but denying Azpi even has back-up quality goes a bit far in my opinion...

He’s not. Next season and the following I would expect him to improve his game and surpass Azpilicueta as he then starts to get to 33 and their roles will reverse. As I said above, Azpilicueta as it stands is a superior defender to James, but James is a better attacking full back. Horses for courses at the moment, but it isn’t a position of need.

 

LB & CB are the most concerning. Skriniar would go a massive way to helping that but whether we could dream of getting him off Inter is another matter. If not, we just sign Havertz and win 5-4 every week!

1 hour ago, Bluesince66 said:

Apart from RB I feel our defense is a shambles,well that's my opinion, we will always ship goals with what we have,I suppose we have been spoilt in the past,all of them should be backups at best.

Are the players that bad or is it more a case of a rookie manager unable to arrange a defence? Every time we face a set piece, we look like conceding. At the beginning of the season Lamps was using zonal marking which is very strange considering he is an ex player. I still think we are still using zonal marking, there is a video floating around of our players stood in a zone with Aston Villa players at the far end all free.

You can go through the top 8 & I am pretty certain if you have a look at their defences, we will probably have a top 4 defence. Take Leicester for example with the 2nd best defence in the league, bar Soyuncu & Pereira, I don’t rate their remaining 6 defenders. The £80m Chiwell is bang average, Jonny Evans starts for Christ sakes, then you have Wes Morgan, Fuchs & James Jordan. Tell me how that defence is better than ours. The Everton squad that held Liverpool has Digne, Holgate, Keane & Coleman. Bar Digne, that defence is bang average. Our lot would have conceded not because they are poor, just that they are not well set up.

Fans would be in for a surprise when a £60m-£80m defensive signing doesn’t fix the problems.

16 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

He’s only bloody 30😂. James has to be the most overrated player at his current level by our fans. He’s an exceptional talent but he is still very raw and defensively he gets caught out still. 
 

James provides more going forward but Azpi is still a significantly better defender than him. I said we should be starting James against the lower sides for his attacking aspects but against the bigger sides it should be Azpilicueta starting.

 

tips-and-tricks.co

I disagree with him being overrated. Out of our academy success story this year Mount and James are the furthest ahead to me, the most composed, reliable and mature of the lot.

His few minutes on Sunday were awful, but that is in no way representative of his season. I also consider him very well rounded and disagree with the notion of him being all out attacking with no mind for defending. In fact, I consider a back 4 with James as RB und Azpi as LB defensively stronger than Azpi RB and Alonso/Emerson LB. To me he is already one of the best right backs in the league and one of our most reliable performers this season.

Now the same applies to Azpi, who once again proved his immense quality on Sunday. I also agree that he must be an undisputed starter against City, and if Frank wants to play him in his natural position in a back 4 we will obviously see James on the bench. In any other case (Azpi as LB or in a back 3) they might well start together.

13 minutes ago, ducavis said:

Are the players that bad or is it more a case of a rookie manager unable to arrange a defence? Every time we face a set piece, we look like conceding. At the beginning of the season Lamps was using zonal marking which is very strange considering he is an ex player. I still think we are still using zonal marking, there is a video floating around of our players stood in a zone with Aston Villa players at the far end all free.

You can go through the top 8 & I am pretty certain if you have a look at their defences, we will probably have a top 4 defence. Take Leicester for example with the 2nd best defence in the league, bar Soyuncu & Pereira, I don’t rate their remaining 6 defenders. The £80m Chiwell is bang average, Jonny Evans starts for Christ sakes, then you have Wes Morgan, Fuchs & James Jordan. Tell me how that defence is better than ours. The Everton squad that held Liverpool has Digne, Holgate, Keane & Coleman. Bar Digne, that defence is bang average. Our lot would have conceded not because they are poor, just that they are not well set up.

Fans would be in for a surprise when a £60m-£80m defensive signing doesn’t fix the problems.

I know what you mean,there was a time I really liked our defenders but they seem to have gone downhill,maybe it is because of frank.

Surprised some want to keep Emerson and ship out Alonso. They're both average defensively but at least Alonso can contribute going forward. Emerson is the definition of useless. Keeping him even as a backup seems pointless to me. We've been linked with Telles(Porto), Tagliafico(Ajax), Gosens(Atalanta) and Chilwell among others. I've already made my feelings known on Chilwell(not a fan, especially for the fees mentioned), the rest I have seen only occasionally, so can't say who I'd pick. We do need to upgrade the LB position and I trust the club to do that in the summer.

My biggest worry though is the central defence where I feel we're the most exposed. None of our centrebacks fills me with any sort of confidence. They all have certain strengths but also serious flaws and not one can be relied on to produce top level performances on a consistent basis. Apart from Tomori who's still very young and may yet develop into a top player, I'd get rid of all of them if it were possible, that's how little faith I have in them. We desperately need at least one truly world class CB. Liverpool with Van Dijk hit the jackpot but they also demonstrated that you can pair up a world class CB (VVD) with good, but not great, partner (Gomez, Matip) and do well. Again, what options are available in the market and how expensive they are, who knows. But I do believe, if we only had enough money to spend on just one player, I'd go for world class CB, or better yet, two of them. I know it's probably not realistic, but that's how important I think it is for us in order to move forward and become a top European side again.

Agree with all of that - set pieces always a worry and all zonal doesnt work, it has to be part zonal and part manmark/block. Thats the coach choice and think frank would benefit from a defensive coach in his team.

Suggest review again after city game as no cf focal point and lots movement so kante key and maybe gilmour with him.

I would keep Azpilicueta, Alonso, James and Tomori, the rest just aren't cutting it for me.

Rudiger has completely lost his composure since he picked up injuries. He seems to be easily rattled these days too. I don't know what has happened to him.

Zouma can have good games, but he more often than not looks like a disaster waiting to happen.

Christensen is easy to bully, that isn't something you want in your cb. He looks and plays like youngster still developing.

Emerson does nothing. He doesn't offer anything in attack, he doesn't offer anything in defense, he's the perfect example of a nothing player. It's a myth that he was good at the start of the season. Nobody can even remember any standout moment from him, that is how forgettable his performances have been.

 

We desperately need a dominating CB who knows how to organise a defence. That defence of ours has zero leadership and it shows in almost every game. Finding a Desailly or Terry now is incredibly hard, but finding somebody similar should be our number 1 priority, because if we don't sort that defence out, we won't be competing for the major titles any time soon. 

Edited June 23, 20206 yr by Scott Harris

I get the feeling during and after the city game this thread will see a lot of Replies lol

10 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

He’s only bloody 30😂. James has to be the most overrated player at his current level by our fans. He’s an exceptional talent but he is still very raw and defensively he gets caught out still. 
 

James provides more going forward but Azpi is still a significantly better defender than him. I said we should be starting James against the lower sides for his attacking aspects but against the bigger sides it should be Azpilicueta starting.

He’s not. Next season and the following I would expect him to improve his game and surpass Azpilicueta as he then starts to get to 33 and their roles will reverse. As I said above, Azpilicueta as it stands is a superior defender to James, but James is a better attacking full back. Horses for courses at the moment, but it isn’t a position of need.

 

LB & CB are the most concerning. Skriniar would go a massive way to helping that but whether we could dream of getting him off Inter is another matter. If not, we just sign Havertz and win 5-4 every week!

This post is absolutely spot on.

James has fabulous potential, but he's currently behind Azpi in Lampard's pecking order for a very good reason - right now Azpi is a better defender.

The James fans probably haven't noticed that our results aren't exactly stellar when has started in the PL this season ....

Edited June 23, 20206 yr by Sexyfootball

52 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

This post is absolutely spot on.

James has fabulous potential, but he's currently behind Azpi in Lampard's pecking order for a very good reason - right now Azpi is a better defender.

The James fans probably haven't noticed that our results aren't exactly stellar when has started in the PL this season ....

It's interesting how Alonso has 10 starts and 9 wins while Emerson has 13 starts and only 4 wins. Like how can Emerson be so irrelevant? How?!

The guy is 25 going into 26 he should be at his best, I can't believe we signed this guy! 

38% win rate with more than 10 games as a starter is a clear sign that he sucks! Seriously if anyone wants Emerson I would let him go 15m done deal!

59 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

This post is absolutely spot on.

James has fabulous potential, but he's currently behind Azpi in Lampard's pecking order for a very good reason - right now Azpi is a better defender.

The James fans probably haven't noticed that our results aren't exactly stellar when has started in the PL this season ....

Azpi most definitely is a better defender, but that's not all that makes a right back. I agree with Edinburgh that therefore the choice between them should regularly be made based on the opponent and their firepower.

Disagree with the PT S argument though, by that logic Kante would be by far our worst midfielder and one of our worst players.

Definitely think it’s more a problem with how Frank is setting up the defence, it’s pretty much the same back line as last year yet concede a lot more.

A commanding CB and top Lb would be nice But we will still be having problems if these defensive issues aren’t rectified by Frank and Jody.

20 hours ago, Luiz4Chelsea said:

I disagree with him being overrated. Out of our academy success story this year Mount and James are the furthest ahead to me, the most composed, reliable and mature of the lot.

His few minutes on Sunday were awful, but that is in no way representative of his season. I also consider him very well rounded and disagree with the notion of him being all out attacking with no mind for defending. In fact, I consider a back 4 with James as RB und Azpi as LB defensively stronger than Azpi RB and Alonso/Emerson LB. To me he is already one of the best right backs in the league and one of our most reliable performers this season.

Now the same applies to Azpi, who once again proved his immense quality on Sunday. I also agree that he must be an undisputed starter against City, and if Frank wants to play him in his natural position in a back 4 we will obviously see James on the bench. In any other case (Azpi as LB or in a back 3) they might well start together.

Based on what? In the games James has played he hasn’t excelled. There’s not a single game I can think of that I think - James was the best player on the park or one of. He often gets caught out defensively but because it doesn’t lead to a goal it gets forgotten about. If it was Azpilicueta, Christensen etc making those same mistakes they’d be slaughtered. 
You think based on this seasons performances that James has been more of a success than Tammy? Strongly disagree.

You didn’t read my post correctly if you think I said that he’s all out attack with no thought for defending. I simply stated that he is not as well developed in his defensive game as going forward at this point. 

You’re entitled to your opinion that James is the better player but I disagree and clearly so does Frank. James will grow to be an exception RB in the coming years and be a first choice for the next decade but he’s not there yet. Similar to CHO - exceptional talent but not the finished article.

11 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

I would keep Azpilicueta, Alonso, James and Tomori, the rest just aren't cutting it for me.

Rudiger has completely lost his composure since he picked up injuries. He seems to be easily rattled these days too. I don't know what has happened to him.

Zouma can have good games, but he more often than not looks like a disaster waiting to happen.

Christensen is easy to bully, that isn't something you want in your cb. He looks and plays like youngster still developing.

Emerson does nothing. He doesn't offer anything in attack, he doesn't offer anything in defense, he's the perfect example of a nothing player. It's a myth that he was good at the start of the season. Nobody can even remember any standout moment from him, that is how forgettable his performances have been.

 

We desperately need a dominating CB who knows how to organise a defence. That defence of ours has zero leadership and it shows in almost every game. Finding a Desailly or Terry now is incredibly hard, but finding somebody similar should be our number 1 priority, because if we don't sort that defence out, we won't be competing for the major titles any time soon. 

 

I’d keep one of Zouma & Christensen as that leaves us with 1 CB getting rid of both and Rudiger so we’d need to sign at least 2, possibly 3 - i just can’t see 3 CB’s we could get that would be ok to be backup/rotate with the big money CB. 
 

Personally for me it would be Christensen as he’s different to the others in terms of ball playing ability. I have defended him a lot in the last couple of years but I don’t fully understand why Frank or the fitness coaches haven’t got him on a training plan to bulk up a bit. If he wasn’t so lightweight then he could be a cracking player.

 

I know people think it’s sentimentality that people want JT back but I actually think he’d make a massive difference to our CB’s not necessarily in how they’re organised, but in terms of developing them. Passing on the knowledge he gained during his time with the club etc. The problem is he’s an assistant manager as opposed to just a coach so I’m not sure he’d be up for that.

15 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

I’d keep one of Zouma & Christensen as that leaves us with 1 CB getting rid of both and Rudiger so we’d need to sign at least 2, possibly 3 - i just can’t see 3 CB’s we could get that would be ok to be backup/rotate with the big money CB. 
 

Personally for me it would be Christensen as he’s different to the others in terms of ball playing ability. I have defended him a lot in the last couple of years but I don’t fully understand why Frank or the fitness coaches haven’t got him on a training plan to bulk up a bit. If he wasn’t so lightweight then he could be a cracking player.

 

I know people think it’s sentimentality that people want JT back but I actually think he’d make a massive difference to our CB’s not necessarily in how they’re organised, but in terms of developing them. Passing on the knowledge he gained during his time with the club etc. The problem is he’s an assistant manager as opposed to just a coach so I’m not sure he’d be up for that.

I wouldn't sign a CB. I'd get the coach like you suggest. 

It's Lampard's fault that we are shipping so many goals. Sarri had arguably a worse defensive team and conceded a lot less (despite the fact we shipped 10 in 2 of those games close together).

Signing a new CB won't solve the issue as much as solving the coaching would be. So yeah, hopefully there is a John Terry like coach on the horizon. 

7 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Based on what? In the games James has played he hasn’t excelled. There’s not a single game I can think of that I think - James was the best player on the park or one of. He often gets caught out defensively but because it doesn’t lead to a goal it gets forgotten about. If it was Azpilicueta, Christensen etc making those same mistakes they’d be slaughtered. 
You think based on this seasons performances that James has been more of a success than Tammy? Strongly disagree.

You didn’t read my post correctly if you think I said that he’s all out attack with no thought for defending. I simply stated that he is not as well developed in his defensive game as going forward at this point. 

You’re entitled to your opinion that James is the better player but I disagree and clearly so does Frank. James will grow to be an exception RB in the coming years and be a first choice for the next decade but he’s not there yet. Similar to CHO - exceptional talent but not the finished article.

I didn't say James is better than Azpi, in fact Azpi is one of my favourtie players in our squad. My original point was about disagreeing with the notion that Azpi was on his last legs and couldn't even serve us as a back-up RB any more.

Azpi is indeed a better defender at this point, in fact he is by far our best full back defensively. He is more experienced and more of a leader as our captain, so particularly in big games I'm glad to have him on the pitch. Yet, there have been more than a few games this season against lower tier sides that we struggled to break down, in which I was desperate for James to be brought on for Azpi to offer more of an end product.

I personally can't recall at all that James has been constantly found out defensively this season, certainly no more than either of our LBs. Even if so, his apparent errors that didn't lead to goals against us are matched by his constant supply of brilliant crosses that were not converted. As to standout performances: I believe to remember that James put a definitive end to anyone's interest in Zaha last year. He also strongly contributed to the turnaround against Ajax.

Bottom line is I do believe that James is ahead of Tammy in his development at this point. Not sure about his state right now, but pre Corona I always felt like we can strongly rely on James. Now, I am thrilled with Tammy's numbers this season, but I do worry about where things will head from this point. We are expecting him to become this fokal point for Werner to play off next season, and I'm convinced he has the technical ability to do that, but at the same time it seems like a light breeze can push him over. Giroud's physique means his hold-up play is superior to Tammy's, and unfortunately the same applies to converting chances at the moment. I'm hopeful and optimistic regarding Tammy's future with us, but I am way less sure about it than I am with James. Ultimately, the former has profited from playing in one of our weakest positions, whereas the latter plays in the position of our Mr. Reliable captain.

26 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

I wouldn't sign a CB. I'd get the coach like you suggest. 

It's Lampard's fault that we are shipping so many goals. Sarri had arguably a worse defensive team and conceded a lot less (despite the fact we shipped 10 in 2 of those games close together).

Signing a new CB won't solve the issue as much as solving the coaching would be. So yeah, hopefully there is a John Terry like coach on the horizon. 

We need both, better personnel on a pitch and definitely better coaching. You can get the best defensive coach in the business and he'll tighten things up but ultimately it's about your team's goals. We'll never win major titles with our current group of CBs, they're simply not good enough and never will be. I realize we can't replace them all in one swoop but if we can get a world class CB in this window, we should make it our top priority. 

22 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

He’s only bloody 30😂. James has to be the most overrated player at his current level by our fans. He’s an exceptional talent but he is still very raw and defensively he gets caught out still. 
 

James provides more going forward but Azpi is still a significantly better defender than him. I said we should be starting James against the lower sides for his attacking aspects but against the bigger sides it should be Azpilicueta starting.

He’s not. Next season and the following I would expect him to improve his game and surpass Azpilicueta as he then starts to get to 33 and their roles will reverse. As I said above, Azpilicueta as it stands is a superior defender to James, but James is a better attacking full back. Horses for courses at the moment, but it isn’t a position of need.

 

LB & CB are the most concerning. Skriniar would go a massive way to helping that but whether we could dream of getting him off Inter is another matter. If not, we just sign Havertz and win 5-4 every week!

You know what, maybe you're right about RJ.

I was definitely one of the many who was real excited to see him flourish and wanted him to start. Don't get me wrong, attacking wise he's great and definitely a starter, but after that cameo he made against Villa, there are have been some serious questions over his defending ability, he just looked so out of place.

I still think he should be starting most of his games as Azpi is just not the same player he was a few years ago. You mentioned he's only 30, but can you seriously say that he's even anywhere near the same level he was as 3 years ago? For me he isn't.

Skriniar is definitely my number 1 choice for CB too, but im not sure if he's leaving Inter anytime soon as he's arguably Conte's most important defender.

29 minutes ago, abramovich said:

We need both, better personnel on a pitch and definitely better coaching. You can get the best defensive coach in the business and he'll tighten things up but ultimately it's about your team's goals. We'll never win major titles with our current group of CBs, they're simply not good enough and never will be. I realize we can't replace them all in one swoop but if we can get a world class CB in this window, we should make it our top priority. 

I don't think we can. So I've not really paid it much energy. 

I genuinely believe we have the ability to win the league with our centre backs if we replace our keeper and we start to convert more chances up the park and start to coach them properly. 

1 hour ago, Luiz4Chelsea said:

We are expecting him to become this fokal point for Werner to play off next season,

I am expecting Werner to lead the line next season. Just because Werner can play off Abraham doesn't mean he will. 

18 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

I wouldn't sign a CB. I'd get the coach like you suggest. 

It's Lampard's fault that we are shipping so many goals. Sarri had arguably a worse defensive team and conceded a lot less (despite the fact we shipped 10 in 2 of those games close together).

Signing a new CB won't solve the issue as much as solving the coaching would be. So yeah, hopefully there is a John Terry like coach on the horizon. 

The selection of CBs we have aren't great but there isn't loads of quality CBs around that would walk straight into the team and be a nailed on starter. If there was a number of World class CBs at the right age I've no doubt we would be in for one of them. 

For me Frank has been a fault this year at times how we have set up but what else could he have done? We had a transfer ban, hes had to bring a lot of young players into the team many who had 0 premier league minutes and hes a young manager himself with only one season of coaching plus he lost his best attacker in Hazard. 

Sarri is a vastly more experienced coach who has tried and tested methods. He had a settled back 4 and played a defensive midfield 3 of kova, jorginho and kante. He also had Hazard a world class player which stopped teams breaking in numbers because left exposed they got punished. 

 If Frank had of copied how Sarri played last season we would be no were near 4th place. We may have conceded less goals but without taking the risks we wouldn't have scored as many.

As things stand we have conceded 1 more goal than last season and 10 less with 8 games to go. If we had kept Hazard i have no doubt we would have conceded less and scored more. 

 

 

You know what, maybe you're right about RJ.
I was definitely one of the many who was real excited to see him flourish and wanted him to start. Don't get me wrong, attacking wise he's great and definitely a starter, but after that cameo he made against Villa, there are have been some serious questions over his defending ability, he just looked so out of place.
I still think he should be starting most of his games as Azpi is just not the same player he was a few years ago. You mentioned he's only 30, but can you seriously say that he's even anywhere near the same level he was as 3 years ago? For me he isn't.
Skriniar is definitely my number 1 choice for CB too, but im not sure if he's leaving Inter anytime soon as he's arguably Conte's most important defender.

Are we seriously evaluating James' defensive abilities based on the 2 minutes against Villa last Sunday, the first 2 minutes he's played in three months?

Because in that case we have to sell Tammy straight away after Sunday, entirely useless performance. Sounds a bit fickle to me

He's old and would only be a short-term option but if the alternative is getting no-one i'd take Thiago Silva. He's still very good and is the kind of leader we need at the back.
Would give us a bit more time to find the right long-term option.

39 minutes ago, Belfast_blue5 said:

The selection of CBs we have aren't great but there isn't loads of quality CBs around that would walk straight into the team and be a nailed on starter. If there was a number of World class CBs at the right age I've no doubt we would be in for one of them. 

For me Frank has been a fault this year at times how we have set up but what else could he have done? We had a transfer ban, hes had to bring a lot of young players into the team many who had 0 premier league minutes and hes a young manager himself with only one season of coaching plus he lost his best attacker in Hazard. 

Sarri is a vastly more experienced coach who has tried and tested methods. He had a settled back 4 and played a defensive midfield 3 of kova, jorginho and kante. He also had Hazard a world class player which stopped teams breaking in numbers because left exposed they got punished. 

 If Frank had of copied how Sarri played last season we would be no were near 4th place. We may have conceded less goals but without taking the risks we wouldn't have scored as many.

As things stand we have conceded 1 more goal than last season and 10 less with 8 games to go. If we had kept Hazard i have no doubt we would have conceded less and scored more. 

I'm not getting into a Sarri vs Lampard debate on this. 

But you are essentially agreeing with me. If we sort out the rest of the team then the defence will also improve. For a variety of reasons. 

27 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

I'm not getting into a Sarri vs Lampard debate on this. 

But you are essentially agreeing with me. If we sort out the rest of the team then the defence will also improve. For a variety of reasons. 

I actually liked Sarri you have to admire someone who sticks to his principles when hes getting it from all sides. I wasnt getting into the Sarri vs Frank debate. I think having Sarri last year has helped frank this year.

I just didn't agree that its franks fault that we are conceding all the goals. I thinks we would both agree that is the reason we have signed two attacking players already who should add more goals which will ease the pressure on the defence. 

I still think we are a CB short of really challenging who that player is i don't know. I think if we beat city on Thursday night we catch Leicester and finish third which would be a fantastic season considering the transfer ban etc.  

 

When I look  at the league I only see Liverpool having a better defense than us on paper.

Arsenal and Spurs have both conceded more goals than us yet we have conceded more goals than the top three.

Also we have scored less than the top three.

We need to be able to score more for me ( we look to be addressing that with Werner and other signing) and try to strengthen the back line even if only strengthening in defensive one position.

 

Edited June 24, 20206 yr by strider6004