3 minutes ago, Argo said:

I think the one man team phrase is wildly overused. Barca were supposedly that but Spain (effectively Barca without Messi) won 3 tournaments on the spin.

You obviously aren’t of an age to have seen the 86 Argies. They had decent players but without possibly the greatest player ever they don’t win the competition. They really were the definition of a one man team. He was that good!

Lukaku’s mate can’t hot a cows arse either.

1 minute ago, Argo said:

I think the one man team phrase is wildly overused. Barca were supposedly that but Spain (effectively Barca without Messi) won 3 tournaments on the spin.

Barca were an outstanding footballing.team , I don't think anyone could have described them as a one man team though

6 minutes ago, Argo said:

I think the one man team phrase is wildly overused. Barca were supposedly that but Spain (effectively Barca without Messi) won 3 tournaments on the spin.

It’s a narrative I’ll never entertain. An Argentina side that had Ruggeri, Burruchaga, and Valdano is hardly a one man team. 

Just now, charierre said:

You obviously aren’t of an age to have seen the 86 Argies. They had decent players but without possibly the greatest player ever they don’t win the competition. They really were the definition of a one man team. He was that good!

I believe It’s a narrative stemmed from the romanticism of nostalgia. That 1986-1991 Argentina team was one of the most well drilled international sides in history. 
 

https://lastwordonsports.com/2016/02/19/the-argentina-1986-world-cup-squad-was-much-more-than-diego-maradona/amp/

2 minutes ago, charierre said:

You obviously aren’t of an age to have seen the 86 Argies. They had decent players but without possibly the greatest player ever they don’t win the competition. They really were the definition of a one man team. He was that good!

It's true i wasn't alive then but tbf I was thinking out loud in a more general sense.

When we lost Hazard, United/Ronaldo, Arsenal/Henry and even Spurs/Bale the results didn't really decline that much in the short term, obviously you do feel their loss but often it leads to players who were sacrificing themselves to accommodate the star player step up with the extra freedom they now have, Rooney (after Ronaldo left) prime example.

I think the one outlier in my time would be Suarez dragging Brendan's Liverpool into a title race.

1 minute ago, Sconnie Blue said:

It’s a narrative I’ll never entertain. An Argentina side that had Ruggeri, Burruchaga, and Valdano is hardly a one man team. 

I believe It’s a narrative stemmed from the romanticism of nostalgia. That 1986-1991 Argentina team was one of the most well drilled international sides in history. 
 

https://lastwordonsports.com/2016/02/19/the-argentina-1986-world-cup-squad-was-much-more-than-diego-maradona/amp/

I think you are taking the ' one man team " phrase too literally.

it simply means that he was absolutely outstanding and Argentina without a doubt would not have won the World Cup without him

 

1 minute ago, Sconnie Blue said:

It’s a narrative I’ll never entertain. An Argentina side that had Ruggeri, Burruchaga, and Valdano is hardly a one man team. 

I believe It’s a narrative stemmed from the romanticism of nostalgia. That 1986-1991 Argentina team was one of the most well drilled international sides in history. 
 

https://lastwordonsports.com/2016/02/19/the-argentina-1986-world-cup-squad-was-much-more-than-diego-maradona/amp/

So an article backs you up , what does it prove? Absolutely f**k all. Most people who watched that competition attribute the win to Maradona. Barnes ripped them to bits in our game, big mistake by Robson not go for them earlier.

1 hour ago, charierre said:

Could the Argies win this as a one man team again?

Going home next round.

2 minutes ago, Argo said:

It's true i wasn't alive then but tbf I was thinking out loud in a more general sense.

When we lost Hazard, United/Ronaldo, Arsenal/Henry and even Spurs/Bale the results didn't really decline that much in the short term, obviously you do feel their loss but often it leads to players who were sacrificing themselves to accommodate the star player step up with the extra freedom they now have, Rooney (after Ronaldo left) prime example.

I think the one outlier in my time would be Suarez dragging Brendan's Liverpool into a title race.

Generally the World Cup is won by world class players and which team has the most. It’s a short term competition were a player can elevate himself above the rest. Brazil 70 had probably four world class. Argies 78 were a very good side backed by tremendous support. Italy 82 probably bucked the trend but no one cared as it stopped the cheating Germans winning it.

 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, The Rising Sun said:

I think you are taking the ' one man team " phrase too literally.

it simply means that he was absolutely outstanding and Argentina without a doubt would not have won the World Cup without him

 

I agree. But my gripe is the one man team narrative. The one man team narrative discredits that Argentina team as a whole when in all reality it was a very good side. Ruggeri is one of the greatest CB’s that ever played the game, and Valdano + Burruchaga are part of South American folklore. 
 

If you watch them from 86’-91 you can see how effective they were tactically. Have a stable backline, suffocate the midfield with runners, and hit on the break. 

32 minutes ago, Argo said:

I think the one man team phrase is wildly overused. Barca were supposedly that but Spain (effectively Barca without Messi) won 3 tournaments on the spin.

And not just any, that Spanish golden generation won the Euro twice in a row and the World Cup in between!

With that said, I do think that 1 player can make or break a team but that goes both ways, when Argentina loses after Messi spends 90 minutes walking around the pitch doing nothing, he's also at fault as much as he's to be praised when he assists or scores for them but the usual take is to only point out when Messi does good and not when he completely fails in the leadership role and yes that has happen in the past more than once. In fact Maradona himself openly said that Messi lacks in that department, he's not a good leader.

Similarly Brazil looked good when they were hosting the World Cup till the point T.Silva got suspended after accumulating yellow cards and suddenly the 7:1 came.

 

Edited December 3, 20223 yr by Gol15

13 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I agree. But my gripe is the one man team narrative. The one man team narrative discredits that Argentina team as a whole when in all reality it was a very good side. Ruggeri is one of the greatest CB’s that ever played the game, and Valdano + Burruchaga are part of South American folklore. 
 

If you watch them from 86’-91 you can see how effective they were tactically. Have a stable backline, suffocate the midfield with runners, and hit on the break. 

It's just how it goes since there is that one player that is so much above the rest. Pele had a similar issue, while everybody openly said that he's simply the best player, Brazil could do fine without him while he was injured.

Though I must admit that I find this particular Argentinian squad pretty average, maybe if I were to rank it in accordance to Messi, I would actually honestly say that Messi has never had less world class players to play with in Argentina than right now this moment. 2006 and 2010 Argentina probably beats this one of 2022 without problems and in 2014 they reached the final but interestingly enough Messi scored tonight his first goal of the World Cup knockout stage, okey it was against Australia but he's older and has worse teammates so he's maybe going for a vintage tournament perfomance in Qatar.

What a game just when it was threatening to become the Messi adulation game Australia via hard work and a deflection put the game within reach and that last move where Kuol shoots must have had the Gauchos in shock.

Behich's dribble almost put Messi in the shade if only he could have scored it would have been sensational.

The right team won yet credit to the Socceroos for making a match of it right up until the end.

These teams look knackered. Hardly any rest between matches. 

Argentina are on borrowed time. Shame those fans are going home though. I heard the Messi goal on the radio , I was expecting a Gazza or Maradona type goal when.I watched it,  not a pass into the goal from a few yards😜😜

2 hours ago, Argo said:

It's true i wasn't alive then but tbf I was thinking out loud in a more general sense.

When we lost Hazard, United/Ronaldo, Arsenal/Henry and even Spurs/Bale the results didn't really decline that much in the short term, obviously you do feel their loss but often it leads to players who were sacrificing themselves to accommodate the star player step up with the extra freedom they now have, Rooney (after Ronaldo left) prime example.

I think the one outlier in my time would be Suarez dragging Brendan's Liverpool into a title race.

With respect to Hazard etc Maradona was in a different class, absolutely outstanding and on pitches that were nowhere near the perfect bowling green ones that we have now. 

as for the departure of a star player allowing freedom for other players to step up, im.still waiting for that to happen after Hazard left !😁😁😁😁😁😁

2 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I agree. But my gripe is the one man team narrative. The one man team narrative discredits that Argentina team as a whole when in all reality it was a very good side. Ruggeri is one of the greatest CB’s that ever played the game, and Valdano + Burruchaga are part of South American folklore. 
 

If you watch them from 86’-91 you can see how effective they were tactically. Have a stable backline, suffocate the midfield with runners, and hit on the break. 

I perhaps should elaborate. To win a World Cup it is generally accepted that a team needs 3/4 genuine World Class players. Argentina in 1986( note I said at this time) had the one. He is probably the greatest of all time, taking into account the pitches he played on and the brutality he faced…shame he’s remembered more as a cheat in England. He is though forgiven by many for that aberration.He simply was that good. Without him Argentina do not reach the final. He had a presence…one which had me queue through the night to get a ticket to see him, pity he wasn’t at his best on the night. The players you mentioned were decent pro’s ..you have to be to get to that level. I honestly don’t recall any of them achieving that much at club level in Europe.

38 minutes ago, charierre said:

I perhaps should elaborate. To win a World Cup it is generally accepted that a team needs 3/4 genuine World Class players. Argentina in 1986( note I said at this time) had the one. He is probably the greatest of all time, taking into account the pitches he played on and the brutality he faced…shame he’s remembered more as a cheat in England. He is though forgiven by many for that aberration.He simply was that good. Without him Argentina do not reach the final. He had a presence…one which had me queue through the night to get a ticket to see him, pity he wasn’t at his best on the night. The players you mentioned were decent pro’s ..you have to be to get to that level. I honestly don’t recall any of them achieving that much at club level in Europe.

That reminds me of going to watch a Barcelona game solely because of Messi.

He didn't score on the night (although made a beautiful through ball to Ansu Fati), next game? 4 goals.

Really good 2 games. US needed an early goal to have a chance, pity Pullisic let the chance go, it's the moment differentiate good to great player. Argentina should have the game wrapped up if that Martinez guy didn't learn shootings from his mate Lukaku, and to be honest Socceros should have scored in the last minute. Got hang in there when a goal down, the extended added time gave everyone a chance, and it' really difficult to hold on the lead for extra 4-5 minutes.

7 hours ago, charierre said:

Generally the World Cup is won by world class players and which team has the most. It’s a short term competition were a player can elevate himself above the rest. Brazil 70 had probably four world class. Argies 78 were a very good side backed by tremendous support. Italy 82 probably bucked the trend but no one cared as it stopped the cheating Germans winning it.

 

 

 

 

I don't think it is about who has the most wc player. It is more about who has the least amount of weaknesses. 

Of course there is player like Messi who can cover all your offensive deficiencies almost single handedly. But he is one of a kind. 

 

6 hours ago, Argo said:

That reminds me of going to watch a Barcelona game solely because of Messi.

He didn't score on the night (although made a beautiful through ball to Ansu Fati), next game? 4 goals.

That’s it, you do that to see the best. Mine was when he played for Barcelona too v ManU. 

9 hours ago, icecoolguy22 said:

Really good 2 games. US needed an early goal to have a chance, pity Pullisic let the chance go, it's the moment differentiate good to great player. Argentina should have the game wrapped up if that Martinez guy didn't learn shootings from his mate Lukaku, and to be honest Socceros should have scored in the last minute. Got hang in there when a goal down, the extended added time gave everyone a chance, and it' really difficult to hold on the lead for extra 4-5 minutes.

There was one moment when Weah goes round Danny Blind opens them and puts in a cross.

For the life of me cannot understand why they did not try that move a few more times. 

Netherlands were the better side yet think the US with a bit of smarter play might have stretched them a bit more.

Still they did well to reach the knockout stages.

When will Chris Sutton just f**k off? He's one of the worst pundits out there.

4 minutes ago, Zeta said:

When will Chris Sutton just f**k off? He's one of the worst pundits out there.

He’s a better pundit than a player 😏

Jesus out for 3 month? rip Arsenal