10 hours ago, TheCeleryKing said:

 

 

The song is racist. That is not really up for debate. The song is a known racist song. The Argentinian fans have been singing it for a couple of years now. They often make monkey gestures while singing it.

Enzo didn’t write the song. Enzo did apologise for singing it. He apologised for singing it because he knows that he shouldn’t have and he knows it is a racist song.  

Enzo may well NOT be a racist, but he sang a racist song. I like to believe that he is not a racist. I hope that there is the possibility of a good outcome in this situation for both him and our team/squad.

 

Nope - it is xenophobic and plays on stereotypes. 
 

If Argentina fans choose to make monkey noises - then that is a different issue - but it isn’t the song that is racist. 

1 hour ago, nonotnowjim said:

Nope - it is xenophobic and plays on stereotypes. 
 

If Argentina fans choose to make monkey noises - then that is a different issue - but it isn’t the song that is racist. 

Not really sure what your trying to say here.  You are saying that this song xenophobic and you are saying it is playing on sterotypes correct?

You do understand that these stereotypes are racially based?

Xenophobia is “fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign.” Racism has a slightly broader range of meanings, including “a belief that race is the primary deteriment of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

In this song – this xenophobic song/chant – it refers specifically to a group of people from a particular race. Therefore this is racism.

Overall what you are saying is absurd and ridiculous. Your defence of racism has been duly noted and I clearly understand where you are coming from.

13 hours ago, WhiteWall said:

Somebody set up a JustGiving page, quick.

To clarify: It is a racist chant/song. It is a known racist chant/song amongst the Argentinian fans. Racism is not different in different countries. Enzo is not saying that this song is not racist – he knows that it is. Everybody knows that it is. It is a racist song/chant and he has apologised. He apologised because it is an offensive and racist song.

There are other players that should be apologizing. He was not singing that on his own.

Is Enzo a racist? We do not know as we do not know him. My guess is that in all honesty he is not. Ignorant and totally stupid, but unlikely to be a racist.  He did a really stupid thing. He apologised. People make mistakes. He made a mistake.

And. . .This is a serious problem for our team/squad. How will our new manager resolve this? Poch would have had a BBQ. Enzo Senior will have to get this problem aired in the dressing room and resolved. I can only hope that somebody live streams that discussion. Lol

 

 

2 hours ago, WhiteWall said:

I don't hold with this different culture bollocks tbh. If you're part of an Andean village farming community, Amazonian pygmys, the Bedouin, Inuit Indians and Eskimos, fair enough. The rest of the world is covered with sugar and salt saturated  ignoramuses developing obesity whilst living their lives through their iPhones or android devices whilst communicating infrequently in text jargon with each other munching on the same burgers and fries sat in one of 5 billion McDonald's scattered in virtually every town in every country in the world.

 

I also don’t believe it and also cant stand it being used as a convenient excuse for argentines. When I went to university I met several of international students from South America who were well-versed in what’s right and wrong when it comes to racism, discrimination and prejudice. Not to mention these players have been in multiple anti-racism football campaigns so even if they supposedly lived in a bubble they should have learnt something by now.

13 minutes ago, TheCeleryKing said:

Not really sure what your trying to say here.  You are saying that this song xenophobic and you are saying it is playing on sterotypes correct?

You do understand that these stereotypes are racially based?

Xenophobia is “fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign.” Racism has a slightly broader range of meanings, including “a belief that race is the primary deteriment of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

In this song – this xenophobic song/chant – it refers specifically to a group of people from a particular race. Therefore this is racism.

Overall what you are saying is absurd and ridiculous. Your defence of racism has been duly noted and I clearly understand where you are coming from.

 

I dont agree.

Racism is discrimination or prejudice against individuals based on their race or ethnicity.

Xenophobia is prejudice of strangers or foreigners, often manifesting as hostility towards people from other countries or cultures, and can involve discriminatory attitudes and behaviors against them.

At no point does the song reference race, colour of skin, ethnicity in any way.

The song does however reference people with parents from other countries, playing for France.

We both agree that he shouldnt have sang it. We both agree that he was stupid. I dont however agree that the song in itself is racist. Of course, if we then layer on an other "aggravating factors' such as the monkey noises you alluded to, then this changes, and it would of course be racism....but that did not happen in this case.

I am also not defending racism. My wife and children have all experienced genuine racism (discrimination or prejudice based on their skin colour) at various points, and I live in the middle east - where racism is rife. But this is incident with Enzo is not it.

Xenophobic or racist, it doesn't matter. No point trying to distinguish the two in something like this. 

23 minutes ago, Frankie8Lampard said:

I also don’t believe it and also cant stand it being used as a convenient excuse for argentines. When I went to university I met several of international students from South America who were well-versed in what’s right and wrong when it comes to racism, discrimination and prejudice. Not to mention these players have been in multiple anti-racism football campaigns so even if they supposedly lived in a bubble they should have learnt something by now.

It very much is a cultural issue. The disparity of racial sensitivity in Argentina & even Uruguay compared to the rest of the world is huge. This in itself creates a horrific level of ignorance and stupidity considering they view it to be socially accepted everywhere. I think Enzo lacks complete awareness and shows how immature is really is. 

 

6 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

I dont agree.

Racism is discrimination or prejudice against individuals based on their race or ethnicity.

Xenophobia is prejudice of strangers or foreigners, often manifesting as hostility towards people from other countries or cultures, and can involve discriminatory attitudes and behaviors against them.

At no point does the song reference race, colour of skin, ethnicity in any way.

The song does however reference people with parents from other countries, playing for France.

We both agree that he shouldnt have sang it. We both agree that he was stupid. I dont however agree that the song in itself is racist. Of course, if we then layer on an other "aggravating factors' such as the monkey noises you alluded to, then this changes, and it would of course be racism....but that did not happen in this case.

I am also not defending racism. My wife and children have all experienced genuine racism (discrimination or prejudice based on their skin colour) at various points, and I live in the middle east - where racism is rife. But this is incident with Enzo is not it.

I made a post about this yesterday.

I feel that it can be viewed as either racist or discriminatory. I lean more towards discrimination because the lyrics are saying you can't be French if your parents aren't French. But at the same time, the lyrics mention African countries only, so I can see why people would argue that it's racist.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/jul/18/hugo-lloris-enzo-fernandez-video-france-argentina-minister-sacked-julio-garro

7 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

At no point does the song reference race, colour of skin, ethnicity in any way.

 

The song/chant is about French players with African heritage. The song/chant is specifically about black players. The derogatory nature of the song/chant is based upon the ethnic origin of the black players.  The song is also transphobic.

The video is "uninhibited racism" as Wes said.

It is a fairly well known song amongst Argentinian fans. It is a 'naughty' racist song and the players when they were singing it on the bus they knew that, hence the abrupt ending of the stream and the apology.

One could pedantically analyse the 'lyrics' of the song/chant, but the racist intent is clear.

4 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

 

Enzo needs a friend like Paul.

 

 

1 minute ago, TheCeleryKing said:

Enzo needs a friend like Paul.

 

 

Massive respect to the man because he really doesn't have to. 

21 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

At no point does the song reference race, colour of skin, ethnicity in any way.

The song does however reference people with parents from other countries, playing for France

It references race, skin colour, and ethnicity by picking out African (i.e. Black) countries. You'll note there is no mention of theo hernandez' background because he is of Spanish descent, and Spain is majority white/ white presenting. The song doesn't reference players of Algerian descent either because again that is not a majority black country. 

The song is racist. 

While we're at it, to the "some of you are easily offended" crowd. Your tolerance for racism is not the test of whether this should be considered racist (and by implication should be considered seriously).

Perhaps the fact that a number of black people and people of colour are upset by this, and are describing it as racist should make you pause for thought? 

8 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Massive respect to the man because he really doesn't have to. 

“Through my Foundation, I aim to help people learn through the lens of my experiences before, during and after the abuse I received while playing football, including being able to offer forgiveness where deserved”

I hope Enzo and his Chelsea teammates can resolve this. Optimistically i think they can.

(I hope someone live streams the dressing room discussions)

3 minutes ago, Simplymo said:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/jul/18/hugo-lloris-enzo-fernandez-video-france-argentina-minister-sacked-julio-garro

I am again unsurprised that the press has highlighted Chelsea's internal disciplinary procedure following the live stream of Fernandez and some of his Argentinian teammates. Once again the focuses negative attention on Chelsea whilst almost dismissively minimising the action of others.

What is the reflection of the narrative with these few minor amendments to this paragraph

Chelsea said on Wednesday they had “instigated an internal disciplinary procedure” against Enzo Fernández after the midfielder posted a video on Instagram that showed him and some of his Argentina teammates, including players from Premier league clubs, Tottenham, Manchester City, and Manchester United, involved in the chants as they celebrated their victory against Colombia in the Copa América final. No statements have yet been made from the other Premier league clubs regarding the conduct of their players.

It doesn't diminish the severity of the incident and has no effect on the steps being taken by the club. The additions made are factually correct but sadly sit slightly outside of the overarching press narrative.

Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they are not out to get you.

The Messi apology point is farcical as well considering he wasn't even on the coach. 

9 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

It references race, skin colour, and ethnicity by picking out African (i.e. Black) countries. You'll note there is no mention of theo hernandez' background because he is of Spanish descent, and Spain is majority white/ white presenting. The song doesn't reference players of Algerian descent either because again that is not a majority black country. 

The song is racist. 

If there was only one african player (or a couple) in the France national squad then that point would be valid, but in this case the majority of the players are african, that's why you won't see any reference to Hernandez's background.

14 minutes ago, TheCeleryKing said:

The song/chant is about French players with African heritage. The song/chant is specifically about black players. The derogatory nature of the song/chant is based upon the ethnic origin of the black players.  The song is also transphobic.

The video is "uninhibited racism" as Wes said.

It is a fairly well known song amongst Argentinian fans. It is a 'naughty' racist song and the players when they were singing it on the bus they knew that, hence the abrupt ending of the stream and the apology.

One could pedantically analyse the 'lyrics' of the song/chant, but the racist intent is clear.

 We clearly disagree, and thats fine. I have explained why, in the absence of any mention of race, skin colour or ethnicity, I do not think it is racist. Others prefer to impose their own assumptions and jump to conclusions, despite evidence to the contrary, then there is not much anyone can do about it. 

Your argument that people the song is specifically about black players is irrelevent. I could say that the song is also about people who have fingernails - does that make the song prejudicial to them as well? No - of course not. It is you, and others who are imposing the black inference, exactly the same as i could impose a 'fingernail' inference. It doenst make either of them correct.

 

 

1 minute ago, Upb78 said:

If there was only one african player (or a couple) in the France national squad then that point would be valid, but in this case the majority of the players are african, that's why you won't see any reference to Hernandez's background.

No, they are French. That's sort of the point. 

1 minute ago, WhiteWall said:

The Messi apology point is farcical as well considering he wasn't even on the coach. 

He is the Captain and with that comes a responsibility. I am fairly certain they have sung it on the bus before and he might have been there on those occasions.

I am starting to feel a little sorry for Enzo tbh. He was not the only player singing.  But he does appear to be the scapegoat now. All on his own.

1 minute ago, nonotnowjim said:

absence of any mention of race, skin colour or ethnicity, I do not think it is racist.

If I pointed at a group of black people, and turned to a group of white people and said "I f**king hate them lot", you wouldn't think this was racist because no specific identifying term was used? 

15 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

While we're at it, to the "some of you are easily offended" crowd. Your tolerance for racism is not the test of whether this should be considered racist (and by implication should be considered seriously).

Perhaps the fact that a number of black people and people of colour are upset by this, and are describing it as racist should make you pause for thought? 

deluded elitist...

Just now, g3.7 said:

If I pointed at a group of black people, and turned to a group of white people and said "I f**king hate them lot", you wouldn't think this was racist because no specific identifying term was used? 

Not if the group of black people were all wearing liverpool shirts at that time (i.e I f**king hate them lot of liverpool fans). 

Or if the group of black people were trying to break into a house at that time (i.e I f**king hate them lot of robbers)

Or if the group of black people were trying to f**k a child (i.e I f**king hate them lot of paedos).

Just because they are black, doesnt make it automatically racist.

 

3 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Not if the group of black people were all wearing liverpool shirts at that time (i.e I f**king hate them lot of liverpool fans). 

Or if the group of black people were trying to break into a house at that time (i.e I f**king hate them lot of robbers)

Or if the group of black people were trying to f**k a child (i.e I f**king hate them lot of paedos).

Just because they are black, doesnt make it automatically racist.

 

None of those specific situations apply here. Which should be obvious. Just a normal group of people, the only identifier they have in common is skin colour.