7 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I think it goes well beyond some fans on the internet. 

Jules Koundé posted on social media calling Enzo racist, yet in the comment section there are hundreds of posts of a video of him and Griezmann poking fun of an oriental man. 

I think it's Dembele, not Kounde. They are basically saying that he ignores racism when it doesn't concern his race.

1 hour ago, ozboy said:

You missing the point. He has breached the club and probably FA rules at a minimum and caused a very public  rift in the dressing room. Whether his conduct is normal by his standards and Argentinian standards, and I don’t think it is, doesn’t matter. He has to abide by the Chelsea standard. 
 

ignorance is no excuse and never has been. It might be mitigation but it’s no excuse. 
And if Rodri does it as well, so what, that doesn’t make it right or acceptable. Just because other people steal cars doesn’t make it acceptable for you to steal one. 

You're right I must be missing the point cause for me it's common sense that whatever happens in the Argentinian team on another continent should be the responsibility of AFA and not in any way connected to the PL and CFC, what standard would Enzo follow if they would have sung their songs where they mock their rivals regardlessly if someone records it or not...

In comparison to mocking a rival from the World Cup it's more scandalous in my eyes that someone like Rodri says something that is actually a political statement in itself and directly against the country he beat in the Euro finals and on top of that he lives in England, but that's just me...

 

1 hour ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I think it goes well beyond some fans on the internet. 

Jules Koundé posted on social media calling Enzo racist, yet in the comment section there are hundreds of posts of a video of him and Griezmann poking fun of an oriental man. 

 

 

Well, the irony here is if Chelsea or any club said they were putting all players and staff on diversity training courses once a year(which is what I have to do for all the US tech companies I have worked for) their would the uproar about it.

You would see the buzz words come out i.e this is woke nonsense (99.99% of people who use this word as a pejorative have no idea what it means or where the words come from) the other 0.01% do know but are disingenuous.

You would here its  politics keep it out of sports. Politics is sports and sports is politics that will never change. Might not be the politics you see but its there.

You would here football doesnt have a racism problem and black and brown fans/players are too sensitive and always play the race card.

You would here football doesnt have a sexism, homophobic or transphobic.

I could go on but my point here is a lot of the people calling for training and education NOW would be the same to oppose said training on these issues.

You cant eradicate any of these from society unfortunately, but you can provide education on why being a wonderful human isnt hard.

Going through these trainings I have confronted some of my own unconscious biases and  I thought I didnt have any bias.

 

Edited July 17, 20242 yr by El regreso

1 hour ago, bluetrooper said:

Not offended, But I dont want to give this behviour a pass and hopefully the club wont either. I think it is really sad to defend what to most people is racist and discriminatory and you clearly dont think there is something wrong with it because you are defending his behaviour. 

And if those players dont care about skin colour, why would they sing a chant about it? Im sorry, but your logic as warped as Argentinian society if you think its acceptable because of "cultural difference". what was said has insulted the French FA who are trying to set a standard in what is acceptable or not. Clearly to the French, what was sung isnt acceptable, nor to Forfana who has called it out. You dont think the chant is wrong. I do and thats why I said what I did before to you. Dont like folk justifying racism. 

I'm defending the fact that what people in the UK perceive as a deadly sin might not be the case somewhere else in the world.

People there openly call each other those names and having a nickname based on how a person looks is pretty normal since they aren't actually racist but I understand that such a thing might be impossible to understand elsewhere.

Obviously the French FA reacted, the song itself is a low blow that tries to imply that the French team wouldn't be so good without the players that have a different ethnic background, that alone is a sad attempt to mock a rival but in essence it mocks France and thus it's not a racist attack against the players themselves, they don't put them down but they mock their opponent's country while ignoring that a lot of their own players have a European background, the whole thing is stupid but saying that Enzo should be kicked from the team because he is a racist is not really telling the real story, Enzo isn't a racist.

5 hours ago, Gol15 said:

The fact is that Argentina has the best fans in the world, they don't care about what others think at all they sang a song against Pele and Brazil during the whole World Cup that was in Brazil.

Feel sorry for any Frenchman that is offended but that's life.

What a dumb comment, I hope you know there are black members of this forum who are offended by Enzo's comments. To simply say that's life is ridiculous.

6 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I'm defending the fact that what people in the UK perceive as a deadly sin might not be the case somewhere else in the world.

People there openly call each other those names and having a nickname based on how a person looks is pretty normal since they aren't actually racist but I understand that such a thing might be impossible to understand elsewhere.

Obviously the French FA reacted, the song itself is a low blow that tries to imply that the French team wouldn't be so good without the players that have a different ethnic background, that alone is a sad attempt to mock a rival but in essence it mocks France and thus it's not a racist attack against the players themselves, they don't put them down but they mock their opponent's country while ignoring that a lot of their own players have a European background, the whole thing is stupid but saying that Enzo should be kicked from the team because he is a racist is not really telling the real story, Enzo isn't a racist.

Of course, the classic cultural relativism to defend racist acts

10 hours ago, WhiteWall said:

I know I am responding to a lot of your posts atm @axman2526. Apologies, i am not picking at your comments, honest , but I think the media is already into the standard Chelsea bashing frenzy. Granted he is a cock for his actions here and he will be deemed the main culprit for live streaming this but I think the clubs of every player visible in that video should be every bit as vocal as Chelsea and should be called out just as much by the world's press.

 

And no worries, I am the forum fool for a reason  ;)

10 hours ago, abramovich said:

Well, obviously first he has to go through a racial sensitivity training where he will learn how not to be a racist, that goes without saying. Then, of course, tour the African continent and pose for a few adorable pics with a bunch of malnourished kids dressed in new Chelsea shirts in some remote village , and voila, he's not a racist anymore but simply a misunderstood young man who clearly loves black people, especially the ones from France. It will all lead to a grand finale with Enzo arriving at Cobham and tearfully embracing his black teammates while singing "We shall overcome" with the club cameraman recording this monumental event for the very special episode of "Behind the Scenes at Cobham".

Lol nice one Roman, wish you were still in charge.

9 minutes ago, Frankie8Lampard said:

What a dumb comment, I hope you know there are black members of this forum who are offended by Enzo's comments. To simply say that's life is ridiculous.

Why not the entire country of Argentina, pretty sure Enzo didn't invent that song when they won the World Cup and pretty sure millions of their people were using it to mock France, why stop at being offended by Enzo?

8 minutes ago, Frankie8Lampard said:

Of course, the classic cultural relativism to defend racist acts

If you believe that there are no cultural differences from England and Argentina then everything is relative, I guess.

3 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Why not the entire country of Argentina, pretty sure Enzo didn't invent that song when they won the World Cup and pretty sure millions of their people were using it to mock France, why stop at being offended by Enzo?

If you believe that there are no cultural differences from England and Argentina then everything is relative, I guess.

Enzo is a footballing professional who plays for Chelsea Football club, an English football team known for its diversity and has had a rich history of having black players including many French Black players with African ancestry. It doesn't matter how old the song is or how many people sung it. He posted the video and should no better. 

So if a country existed where they believe it is okay to stab everyone you meet, your will accept that because of "cultural differences"?

2 minutes ago, Frankie8Lampard said:

Enzo is a footballing professional who plays for Chelsea Football club, an English football team known for its diversity and has had a rich history of having black players including many French Black players with African ancestry. It doesn't matter how old the song is or how many people sung it. He posted the video and should no better. 

So if a country existed where they believe it is okay to stab everyone you meet, your will accept that because of "cultural differences"?

Enzo is actually a part of that diversity and his admiration of Reece James is one of the reasons why he became a Chelsea player to begin with. Don't you ever forget that.

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

Enzo is actually a part of that diversity and his admiration of Reece James is one of the reasons why he became a Chelsea player to begin with. Don't you ever forget that.

Enzo posted an ignorant racist video. Period. Stop trying to defend him by pulling everything you can out of your ass, you are embarrassing yourself pulling out all the classic silly points. First cultural relativism and now the "I have a black friend" point. 🤦‍♂️

Ok I will open myself up to abuse on this one but is what it is.

There is a lot of people around throwing stones about this. I know I am not perfect by any stretch of imagination. I make mistakes, and if I am not given a chance to make up for that mistake and learn from it then what of those people not willing to offer that chance for redemption? Are they so without sin and mistakes they can indeed cast stones?

Do these people remember their grand parents. I do, all 4 long since dead. 2 born in England, 2 in Wales. They would use terms like "that darkey" over there, that "paki" or something similar like it was just normal talk, because the culture they grew up in it was normal and accepted.

It should not be anymore, and trying to get them to stop was a stone up a hill task cause they were old and set in their ways.

For Enzo and the Argies this sort of behavior is seen as normal and not racist or xenophobic. Just like it was for my grandparents. The rest of the world disagrees with this, least most of the world does.

Is a mistake, a stupid one led out of ignorance, but if he is showing he is genuinely sorry and wants to learn and make amends, why should he not be given the chance to better himself and be forgiven?

These calls for his career to be over, or similar punishments over a stupid, insensitive song. Not for me.

Edited July 17, 20242 yr by axman2526

Just now, Frankie8Lampard said:

Enzo posted an ignorant racist video. Period. Stop trying to defend him by pulling everything you can out of your ass, you are embarrassing yourself pulling out all the classic silly points. First cultural relativism and now the "I have a black friend" point. 🤦‍♂️

Your own racist mind sees racism everywhere, is Enzo a white man according to you? Your go-to buzz words don't work in a real discussion. Cheers.

3 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Ok I will open myself up to abuse on this one but is what it is.

There is a lot of people around throwing stones about this. I know I am not perfect by any stretch of imagination. I make mistakes, and if I am not given a chance to make up for that mistake and learn from it then what of those people not willing to offer that chance for redemption? Are they so without sin and mistakes they can indeed cast stones?

Do these people remember their grand parents. I do, all 4 long since dead. 2 born in England, 2 in Wales. They would use terms like "that darkey" over there, that "paki" or something similar like it was just normal talk, because the culture they grew up in it was normal and accepted.

It should not be anymore, and trying to get them to stop was a stone up a hill task cause they were old and set in their ways.

For Enzo and the Argies this sort of behavior is seen as normal and not racist or xenophobic. Just like it was for my grandparents. The rest of the world disagrees with this, least most of the world does.

Is a mistake, a stupid one led out of ignorance, but if he is showing he is genuinely sorry and wants to learn and make amends, why should he not be given the chance to better himself and be forgiven?

These calls for his career to be over, or similar punishments over a stupid, insensitive song. Not for me.

 

Who is demanding an end to his career?

It's important for him to comprehend the offensiveness of his statement, going beyond mere banter, especially for someone like me who is black. 

I hope he can rejoin the team and restore harmony, but he should be punished first, just like every player who sang that song on the bus.

If he hadn't streamed it, we wouldn't have known this side of him, suggesting he's comfortable with these things.

Contrition is needed.

8 hours ago, bluetrooper said:

I banged my head on a desk repeatedly reading this about Enzo. It's a terrible look for the club to navigate, what was said is truly awful. It is and will be a minefield for the club to navigate and or integrate Enzo back into Cobham given the diverse nationalities within the squad.

If us fans sang stuff like that there would be police investigations and lifetime bans from the ground as we have seen before. 

Honestly, no idea how this should be handled, Its depressing as its a sideshow now for the media to have another go at the club, oppo fans will target him and us and opposing players will want to kick him off the park.

The club need to get this right.  

 

100% this ☝️👍

7 hours ago, AndyDowsleftflank said:

What a nightmare for the club to handle. If this was a low value player he’d be sacked immediately. The stronger and more publicly the club reacts, the less we’ll get for him in a potential sale. 
At the same time, you cant have this kind of divide within the squad. You just cant.

This is a huge, huge issue even if I dont think anyone believes Enzo is actually a racist. 
 

For me, the only way this can be repaired is if Enzo returns to Cobham now, to in person talk to and apologize to the entire squad - and especially the French players. 
If he goes on holiday, hoping its all blown over by the time he returns, I’m afraid theres no way back

And this 100%... I'm afraid it's too late already though. He needs to be at Cobham apologising now.

7 hours ago, dermott said:

All quiet on the Man City front despite Alvarez's contribution to proceedings.

Guardian is mentioning other clubs should get involved and investigating their players. But atm all the other clubs are trying to stay away and quiet, hoping it will pass by while the focus is on chelsea.

6 hours ago, El regreso said:

They all should be getting hammered but it was Enzos live feed which is why he’s getting the heat. His price tag also puts him into the spotlight even though he isn’t responsible for what we pay for him.

 

Also let’s be honest this’s not our first run in with racism as a club so we will always get sports media attention more than other clubs.

100%....an article on every news website with a few running 2 or more in rgds to the incident. With Chelsea front and center on most.

6 hours ago, RMH said:

 

The club will deal with it as it should, internally and as tough as they consider appropriate, and it should not be a reflection on Chelsea or us Chelsea fans.

Unfortunately, that's not the way it will be seen. It's already passed that point tbh with Chelsea being under the spotlight already on how and what actions will be taken.

6 hours ago, abramovich said:

Other players are other clubs' headache and responsibility. Enzo is our player and how the club handles this controvercy is going to have long term consequences not only for him and his future but our standing as a sport institution.

If CFC grow some balls and get rid of the player, other clubs whose players were involved in the incident will be put in a difficult situation where anything short of the same reaction would make them look complicit. It's about setting an example of what can or cannot be tolerated. An attempt to turn it into a PR exercise with phony scripted apologies and the "need to educate" the player is not going to change the atmosphere in the dressing room, not to mention will make the club a target of mass criticism from all sides. This issue concerns not just our club and our players, what happens when Enzo in a CFC shirt has to play against other clubs with black footballers that don't share his 'sense of humour' regarding the African origins of French national team players? 

The only possible solution that doesn't involve Enzo leaving the club is him having a face-to-face conversation with his teammates ASAP where he explains his behaviour, admits he's wrong and asks for their forgiveness. If he's granted that, the club can then proceed to fine him and suspend him but the door for his return and eventual reconciliation will still be open. Anything short of that is going to destroy the team unity from within, because some of the players(Jackson) have already come out in support of him, so it's creating a tension and divisiveness already.

 Although I don't think Nico is "supporting" him, more like trying a bit of damage control as the damage is already done, I agree with the rest. My worry is why the fk is he not there now or at least enroute to Cobham (he could be, I don't know...) but it's a small window for him to act before it's too late. With the limited info we all have, I just feel he isn't taking this seriously enough or moving fast enough.

5 hours ago, dermott said:

Yup. Hit Submit and nothing appears to happen. Hit it again, etc. Some sort of lag in the software.

I had that issue a few times yesterday too...

3 hours ago, TheCeleryKing said:

The media already hates Chelsea and now "Chelsea's" Enzo does this. [as an aside I was reading how former Man city player Palmer scored in the Euro final]. But the club has a real problem here. This is a massive disruption to the team/squad.

I wish the media would also go after the Argentinian Football Association and the coaches and the staff on that bus and also the darling of world football who was on that bus - will his club in Miami be taking action against him?

 

100%, yep the media is just looking for any chance to say something about Chels. Even an article on the beeb today about what Chelsea has been upto in the transfer market and how we can afford it while everyone was "distracted" with euros. They just itch for a story to publish about Chels, especially if its negative. 

I wish the other faces on the bus were more obvious!

Edited July 17, 20242 yr by Simplymo

49 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I'm defending the fact that what people in the UK perceive as a deadly sin might not be the case somewhere else in the world.

People there openly call each other those names and having a nickname based on how a person looks is pretty normal since they aren't actually racist but I understand that such a thing might be impossible to understand elsewhere.

Obviously the French FA reacted, the song itself is a low blow that tries to imply that the French team wouldn't be so good without the players that have a different ethnic background, that alone is a sad attempt to mock a rival but in essence it mocks France and thus it's not a racist attack against the players themselves, they don't put them down but they mock their opponent's country while ignoring that a lot of their own players have a European background, the whole thing is stupid but saying that Enzo should be kicked from the team because he is a racist is not really telling the real story, Enzo isn't a racist.

You're as thick as sh*t as Enzo is. 

 

11 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Ok I will open myself up to abuse on this one but is what it is.

There is a lot of people around throwing stones about this. I know I am not perfect by any stretch of imagination. I make mistakes, and if I am not given a chance to make up for that mistake and learn from it then what of those people not willing to offer that chance for redemption? Are they so without sin and mistakes they can indeed cast stones?

Do these people remember their grand parents. I do, all 4 long since dead. 2 born in England, 2 in Wales. They would use terms like "that darkey" over there, that "paki" or something similar like it was just normal talk, because the culture they grew up in it was normal and accepted.

It should not be anymore, and trying to get them to stop was a stone up a hill task cause they were old and set in their ways.

For Enzo and the Argies this sort of behavior is seen as normal and not racist or xenophobic. Just like it was for my grandparents. The rest of the world disagrees with this, least most of the world does.

Is a mistake, a stupid one led out of ignorance, but if he is showing he is genuinely sorry and wants to learn and make amends, why should he not be given the chance to better himself and be forgiven?

These calls for his career to be over, or similar punishments over a stupid, insensitive song. Not for me.

Dont think people are saying he can't grow, learn or be redeemed. In fact I hope he grows and learns from this experience.

People like me simply find the excuse/defence that Argentinian's see this kind of behaviour as 'normal' as simply not true. There are several Argentinians who wouldn't engage in what Enzo or the national team did. Just because they and some fans sang it, doesn't mean its the norm of the country. Argentinians are smarter than what people in this thread are making them out to be. They do not live in isolation from the rest of the world or are theys tupid to know whats right from wrong. Plus the song was very much targeted at a specific country and a specific group of people so they knew what they were doing. The intent was there. People need to stop coddling these grown men and looking for all sorts of excuses for their behaviour. They did something bad plain and simple and its up to them to know they they did something wrong and grow from it.

It's also up to the people affected by it to choose whether to move on or not. No one other than French black players around the world including Enzo's teammates get to decide whether we should move on. Matt Law said he has apologized to them and I hope that was in good faith. 

Incredible to see some complete moron on here using "but they always do it" as an excuse, it's scouse scum levels of idiocy.

Edited July 17, 20242 yr by dkw

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

You're right I must be missing the point cause for me it's common sense that whatever happens in the Argentinian team on another continent should be the responsibility of AFA and not in any way connected to the PL and CFC, what standard would Enzo follow if they would have sung their songs where they mock their rivals regardlessly if someone records it or not...

In comparison to mocking a rival from the World Cup it's more scandalous in my eyes that someone like Rodri says something that is actually a political statement in itself and directly against the country he beat in the Euro finals and on top of that he lives in England, but that's just me...

 

I live in the UK and work in London for an American owned company. I am currently on holiday in Egypt. If I posted something to a public social media site of me being racist, homophobic or any significant breach of the code of conduct and ethics I have signed and it got back to my company, causing an uproar from my colleagues I would be open to disciplinary action, which in my case being a nobody, would be summary dismissal. Doesn't matter where I am in the world, Doesn't matter that its on my own time. We do DEI online training every single month, we have to complete an annual code of conduct and ethics certification process. Why would it be any different in the world of football, in fact I would expect it to be hammered home even more in such a publicly high profile environment. 

Guys, we all have opinions on this. But let's keep the discussion civil pls.

 

Put simply...

I understand some see nothing wrong in his actions but imho as long as he's a Chelsea player he needs to conduct himself in a way that reflects the club. He fkd up. A big fk up. Call it stupidity, naivety, whatever...club needs to set an example and throw the book at him for the squads and clubs sake at least. 

It will come down to his teammates in the end. And if they don't genuinely accept his apology then the club will have no choice but to take the hit. The optics are really bad, rightly so.

I hope the club does the right thing and I hope other clubs follow, with the rest of the players in the vid.

I am more offended at this seasons home shirt.

33 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Ok I will open myself up to abuse on this one but is what it is.

There is a lot of people around throwing stones about this. I know I am not perfect by any stretch of imagination. I make mistakes, and if I am not given a chance to make up for that mistake and learn from it then what of those people not willing to offer that chance for redemption? Are they so without sin and mistakes they can indeed cast stones?

Do these people remember their grand parents. I do, all 4 long since dead. 2 born in England, 2 in Wales. They would use terms like "that darkey" over there, that "paki" or something similar like it was just normal talk, because the culture they grew up in it was normal and accepted.

It should not be anymore, and trying to get them to stop was a stone up a hill task cause they were old and set in their ways.

For Enzo and the Argies this sort of behavior is seen as normal and not racist or xenophobic. Just like it was for my grandparents. The rest of the world disagrees with this, least most of the world does.

Is a mistake, a stupid one led out of ignorance, but if he is showing he is genuinely sorry and wants to learn and make amends, why should he not be given the chance to better himself and be forgiven?

These calls for his career to be over, or similar punishments over a stupid, insensitive song. Not for me.

Good post @axman2526. What remains unclear though is whether this media savvy response is a genuine act of contrition or is it just doing the right thing.

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

I'm defending the fact that what people in the UK perceive as a deadly sin might not be the case somewhere else in the world.

People there openly call each other those names and having a nickname based on how a person looks is pretty normal since they aren't actually racist but I understand that such a thing might be impossible to understand elsewhere.

Obviously the French FA reacted, the song itself is a low blow that tries to imply that the French team wouldn't be so good without the players that have a different ethnic background, that alone is a sad attempt to mock a rival but in essence it mocks France and thus it's not a racist attack against the players themselves, they don't put them down but they mock their opponent's country while ignoring that a lot of their own players have a European background, the whole thing is stupid but saying that Enzo should be kicked from the team because he is a racist is not really telling the real story, Enzo isn't a racist.

I am not sure people are necessarily saying that he is a racist but they are unhappy that he and his teammates have made racist chants which they have streamed across the world.

I think you are weaving an unsteady path here as you, I think, acknowledge the racist and homophobic elements of the chant and state here that it is stupid, generated by the fans, when n your opening post you stated Argentinian football fans are the best in the world. 

Which ever way you look at it , we are world leaders at shooting our selves in the foot.