2 minutes ago, Frankie8Lampard said:

The strategy matches the type of manager we decided to go with so I’m not worried. I also think a lot of the experienced players we sold were sold for good reason, that is, they were either injury prone (Kante and Kovacic) or were not playing good enough to justify their wages (Koulibaly etc.). 

Experience for me gets a tad overused. As mentioned above I am more concerned about the right profile and whether this player is coachable to develop. 

5 hours ago, OriginalS said:

Falling further and further behind the top is not a good idea. Building a team on potential exclusively is a massive risk.

 

5 hours ago, OriginalS said:

One thing that's not lost on me is that if the owners bought us 10-15 years ago and tried to do the same thing they'd have loaded the club up with Reece Oxford, Josh McEachran, Royston Drenthe, Adnan Januzaj, Ibrahim Affelay, Macheda, Vanden Borre, Gio Dos Santos etc etc.

Point being that it's really hard to predict ahead of time who's going to break through and become actual top class players. We are spending obscene amounts of money on so called talents while overlooking those we already have/had for free in our own academy. Fofana who we bought for £12 million for example is no better than Soonsup-Bell who we sold to Tottenham for pennies.

We have undoubtedly signed a lot of players who are showing enough potential to go to the top. I have to admit that I am now hoping we add a few  experienced players to form a spine of the team, giving the younger players a good base to learn their trade and so don't end up like the vast majority of players touted the 'next...'. Pochettino has a tough task ahead of him deciding which of the young talents are ready both mentally and physically for the challenge of the Premier League. A team full of youth can flourish when the sunshine's, far too often though come the hard winter months and a few defeats, morale  quickly dampens. It is at this point you would normally hope the more experienced squad members would step up to the challenge and guide their younger counterparts. No European competition this year may just be a blessing, giving the coach more time to blend the team into a coherent unit. Next season will be interesting to say the least, get off to a good start ( our fixtures aren't too unkind) and we could gain confidence in a similar way to Arsenal last season, that said if we have a poor start it could well end up a season that we haven't experienced since the 80s.

41 minutes ago, ducavis said:

Well said. Actually think experience can be counterproductive in the modern game; with the amount of experience we brought in last year, you wouldn’t have expected us to have collapsed to 12th. 
Remember the year Arteta inherited the Arsenal squad with Luiz, Ozil, Aubameyang, and a few other experienced players, he went and signed Willian on a free to add on to it. The league blew up in his face, and he spend the winter & summer windows getting rid of all the experienced players and promoting Saka, Martinelli, & smith Rowe to the 1st team. Didn’t Aubameyang recently say Arteta got rid of him because he didn’t want old  players who will question his methods, he needed young players who will run when he asked them to.

And once they got to a title race they couldn't handle the pressure and done one of the biggest title bottle jobs in PL history.

Incidently Pepe and Auba coming up clutch in the FA Cup win was potentially the reason Arteta survived his first full season.

I don't think people quite get what I meant by adding experience. I'm totally fine with us unloading bags of sh*te like Lukaku, Aubameyang etc and them being older doesn't mean I want them around.

I meant experienced players with the right mentality, to help the younger footballers when the team will face difficult times, and it'll happen at some point. You know, kind of like Azpi, but with working legs.

Edited June 29, 20233 yr by abramovich

Out of all the players we've sold so far Kovacic I feel was the biggest mistake, just due to his experience and the depth we lack in the midfield area.

But I think this is looking like damned if you will damned if you don't. We all know these players need to be shifted, they're doing it all at once which is great. Now people complain about how we are overdoing it? Realistically all these players bar Kovacic and Mount are not needed anymore and we are due an upgrade. Mount wanted to leave, so he forced our hand otherwise he goes on a free. 

We've still got time to bring in some experience, right now we just need to make the correct sales before tomorrow. 

Edited June 29, 20233 yr by Victor90

2 hours ago, Victor90 said:

Out of all the players we've sold so far Kovacic I feel was the biggest mistake, just due to his experience and the depth we lack in the midfield area.

But I think this is looking like damned if you will damned if you don't. We all know these players need to be shifted, they're doing it all at once which is great. Now people complain about how we are overdoing it? Realistically all these players bar Kovacic and Mount are not needed anymore and we are due an upgrade. Mount wanted to leave, so he forced our hand otherwise he goes on a free. 

We've still got time to bring in some experience, right now we just need to make the correct sales before tomorrow. 

People keep saying sell this, sell that one, sell the entire team, on every match thread, but now they’re all screaming blue murder because all the sh*t/not wanting to be here players are being sold!

12 minutes ago, RMH said:

People keep saying sell this, sell that one, sell the entire team, on every match thread, but now they’re all screaming blue murder because all the sh*t/not wanting to be here players are being sold!

Although his recruitment partly caused the issue it does show what an excellent coach Tuchel was to get the results he did with squad (and injuries) we had in 21/22.

10 hours ago, coco said:

A bit of experience is needed, but it’s not paramount, not as important as getting the right players for the right positions in the first place, we didn’t have a plethora of experience in 04/05, we had the right players for the right positions and it worked out. 

Keepers:

04/05 - Cech, Cudicini = 319 appearances

23/24 - Kepa, Slonina = 400 appearances

Defenders:

04/05 - Terry, Carvalho, Gallas, Huth, Bridge, Babayaro, Ferreira, Johnson = 1348 appearances

23/24 - Silva, Fofana, Badiashile, Chalobah, Chilwell, Cucurella, Hall, Gusto, James = 1910

I think it's right to point out that Silva on his own has 769 of those appearances. 

Midfielders / Wingers (From here, this is where the experience and quality is seriously lacking in todays squad):

04/05 - Makelele, Smertin, Jarosik, Lampard, Parker, Tiago, Cole, Geremi, Duff, Robben = 2123

23/24 - Enzo, Caicedo (assuming he joins us) Santos, Casadei, Chukwuemeka, Gallgher (assuming he stays) Nkunku, Sterling, Madueke, Mudryk = 1475 (assuming Lotfus-Cheek and Pulisic are sold)

Sterling on his own has 506 apperances. The midfield and wingers are massively inexperienced compared to 04/05. You would have to take out squad players like Smertin, Parker, Jarosik and Geremi to get 04/05 appearance numbers down to 23/24 numbers.

Strikers:

04/05 = Drogba, Gudjohnsen, Kezman, Mutu = 928 appearances

23/24 = Jackson, Broja, Fofana = 252 appearances (assuming Aubameyang and Lukaku are sold)

Scary how inexperienced our strikers could be next season. If Jackson is first choice, then we need to pray that we found a gem.

 

Edited June 29, 20233 yr by Scott Harris

10 hours ago, RMH said:

We still have an experienced defensive line with James, Silva and Chillwell, plus also Fofana who has played in the PL for 3 seasons now. Kepa may have floppy hands, but he's experienced and vocal, and then we have Sterling, who should step up this coming season. Enzo has adapted well since January and has shown that he cares, so I think that he is going to grow into the position even more this coming season.

I wouldn't count Fofana as experienced, the guy has been more injured in those 3 years than he hasn't.

27 apperances in his first season, 7 in his second and 17 in his third. 

3 hours ago, Victor90 said:

Out of all the players we've sold so far Kovacic I feel was the biggest mistake, just due to his experience and the depth we lack in the midfield area.

But I think this is looking like damned if you will damned if you don't. We all know these players need to be shifted, they're doing it all at once which is great. Now people complain about how we are overdoing it? Realistically all these players bar Kovacic and Mount are not needed anymore and we are due an upgrade. Mount wanted to leave, so he forced our hand otherwise he goes on a free. 

We've still got time to bring in some experience, right now we just need to make the correct sales before tomorrow. 

Kovacic was not a natural leader, scarcely available for 2 seasons in a row, and on high wages. Hard to call that a mistake even though I agree, all things being equal, he would be sorely missed. 

32 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

Keepers:

04/05 - Cech, Cudicini = 319 appearances

23/24 - Kepa, Slonina = 400 appearances

Defenders:

04/05 - Terry, Carvalho, Gallas, Huth, Bridge, Babayaro, Ferreira, Johnson = 1348 appearances

23/24 - Silva, Fofana, Badiashile, Chalobah, Chilwell, Cucurella, Hall, Gusto, James = 1910

I think it's right to point out that Silva on his own has 769 of those appearances. 

Midfielders / Wingers (From here, this is where the experience and quality is seriously lacking in todays squad):

04/05 - Makelele, Smertin, Jarosik, Lampard, Parker, Tiago, Cole, Geremi, Duff, Robben = 2123

23/24 - Enzo, Caicedo (assuming he joins us) Santos, Casadei, Chukwuemeka, Gallgher (assuming he stays) Nkunku, Sterling, Madueke, Mudryk = 1475 (assuming Lotfus-Cheek and Pulisic are sold)

Sterling on his own has 506 apperances. The midfield and wingers are massively inexperienced compared to 04/05. You would have to take out squad players like Smertin, Parker, Jarosik and Geremi to get 04/05 appearance numbers down to 23/24 numbers.

Strikers:

04/05 = Drogba, Gudjohnsen, Kezman, Mutu = 928 appearances

23/24 = Jackson, Broja, Fofana = 252 appearances (assuming Aubameyang and Lukaku are sold)

Scary how inexperienced our strikers could be next season. If Jackson is first choice, then we need to pray that we found a gem.

 

That's solid work Scott and is an interesting comparison. I suppose there is a counter argument that appearances doesn't always equate to the quality, after if we'd signed Mark Noble I'd be screaming blue murder, but that analysis does imply a critical lack of working experience in the most important areas of the pitch.

7 minutes ago, WhiteWall said:

That's solid work Scott and is an interesting comparison. I suppose there is a counter argument that appearances doesn't always equate to the quality, after if we'd signed Mark Noble I'd be screaming blue murder, but that analysis does imply a critical lack of working experience in the most important areas of the pitch.

Yep. Experience is needed, but it's got to be the right experience. Koulibaly and Aubameyang are two examples of the wrong type of experience. They need to be players that have been there and done it, but also still be capable of keeping up with modern standards, like Makelele.

We aren't going down the 04/05 route and we coudn't anymore than Newcastle can. The league has moved on. We are going down a completely different route of building a new, young, inexperienced team from scratch. Its risky. Yet its the way you build success. There are many examples across different sports of teams of youngsters growing together and become a great team. You need the talent (and that's unproven) and we will need some character.

I do think we need an onfield leader and probably a 2IC a la Terry and Lampard. Enzo might be the 2IC but I don't see him as the general just yet. It won't be caicedo either and nor is it any of the existing defenders or forwards. Maybe it could be Reece James but he is so often injured. Normally its someone in the centre of the park.

Experience is overrated, because if the last 5 or so years have taught us Chelsea fans anything it is only loosely correlated with actual leadership.

Forget our success under Abramovich. We have probably witnessed the biggest dearth of leadership that this club has ever seen in the Premier League era since the demise of Conte's regime.

For a club that's cherished players like Wise, Desailly, Terry, Drogba, Cahill and at one point, boasted 11 international captains, only Silva and Azpilicueta of the recent batch could count themselves in that company. Apart from that, we can only point to Rudiger playing a character for 6 months and maybe Reece James heavily limited by the treatment room.

The 'experienced' players we have signed since 2017 have largely been weak, soft, dispassionate and unprofessional. The phrase "shrinking violet" has never so often been used on this forum. The effects have been plain to see - repeated poor form, leaks to the press, squad disharmony, a poor record of coming back from behind in games. 

For my money, you can't just 'sign' experience and hope it translates in to leadership. Maybe you get a short-term kick with a guy like Thiago Silva or Casemiro, but eaders are fostered by culture. They are identified by managers and developed and given the keys to the machine. I think back to Mourinho's comments about his initial Chelsea squad being "serial losers" and explaining this is why he targeted the League Cup so aggressively in his first season, to set standards and establish a winning expectation.

If I'm Pochettino i'm calling Reece James today and giving him the armband. I'm laying down expectations of leadership among the rest of the players. No more shrinking violets, everyone needs to take radical responsbility for their own performance.

Edited June 30, 20233 yr by SydneyChelsea

12 hours ago, venom2011 said:

Kovacic was not a natural leader, scarcely available for 2 seasons in a row, and on high wages. Hard to call that a mistake even though I agree, all things being equal, he would be sorely missed. 

You don't have to be a natural leader to offer experience. Kovacic has played at the highest level for years, he's played against the best teams, the best players, he's won the biggest trophies. That experience is important and take last season out the picture he was a consistent and reliable player in my eyes. Not sure what happened to the squad last season but he's probably the only one who I feel that we should've kept, but it is what it is. I'm still happy with the transfers so far. 

Why if I look at Liverpool their signings look a lot better, cheaper and with more experiences. I don’t think giving cheap wages and moving all the expensive players is the way forward. If we not starting to sign top target soon instead of future prospects then de will end up 10 again.

Trivia time ... Christian Pulisic is now the only player left at the club who has more than 8 career league goals for Chelsea (he has 20). Lukaku and Chilwell are next with 8 each.

1 minute ago, Sexyfootball said:

Trivia time ... Christian Pulisic is now the only player left at the club who has more than 8 career league goals for Chelsea (he has 20). Lukaku and Chilwell are next with 8 each.

Goals are so overrated 

27 minutes ago, charierre said:

Goals are so overrated 

Agreed. xG is far more important. Potter should've stayed

Bump.

This is a reminder that you need a bit of experience at that level no amount of talent can replace.

26 minutes ago, abramovich said:

Bump.

This is a reminder that you need a bit of experience at that level no amount of talent can replace.

100%

Honestly, apart from Sterling not a single one of our fit attacking players right now gets in a top 6 starting line up.

We're going to have a lot of hot and cold moments this season due to this but if we want to finish top 4 this season we need a bit of know how to deliver moments to win games.

37 minutes ago, abramovich said:

Bump.

This is a reminder that you need a bit of experience at that level no amount of talent can replace.

Even the ones that become the best of their generation learn from experienced players. Terry learned so much from Desailly and had experienced defenders all around him when he broke through. Even Messi will say Ronaldinho helped him get to where he is today and he is arguably the best of all time. Who have our young players got to learn from? They may have the raw talent, but they need coaching and to play next to players who have experienced everything in the game.

We've only won 5 out of our last 31 games of football and the start to this season could hardly have been any worse. That kind of a record and this kind of a start is bound to have an impact on a squad thats extremely young. As good as I think Caicedo is that kind of performance got the potential to have a lasting impact on him and especially if the team as a whole continues to struggle as well. Fear factor is completely gone for obvious reasons and I genuinely believe every team in the league are licking their lips in anticipation of facing us.
I was pleasantly surprised West Ham tried to play football yesterday so we did create something through Sterling basically forcing the matter but as soon as they sat back and crowded the box you just knew it was over for us.

Luton will be very important but i'm honestly not that confident. If they sit back and look to counter us they may very well beat us and if that happens alarm bells will already be sounding.

 

 Pedro Gonçalves