Coco must have a different definition of creativity. There is a reason why Hazard is always double/triple marked & Willian/Oscar are allowed to have it. You look at the other top teams & they have multiple game changers, we only have Fabregas & Hazard.

for me, athleticism became so overrated at some point that it eventually has become underrated. whilst i don't think you need four times usain bolt in defense, three times mo farah in midfield and three of van niekerk up front, i do think that at there's some intersection where talent with the ball needs to be matched with talent off the ball. fabregas has the former in plenty but equally lacks the latter, and i can see why that's a big question mark for conte and his ideas.

 

at this stage of the season i would wait to see what conte does and how we progress against teams with well established defenses before throwing a tantrum abt fabregas, but i think it's only fair to let conte try and graft his own team. the history with creating winning sides is on contes side and if that's a different way to how guardiola and mourinho would have done it then so be it.

Edited August 16, 20169 yr by opinionsarelike

I will say, that when I watched the team in Pre Seaon, Fabregas sold Aina short a couple of times when tracking back; forcing Aina to make some rash, late challenges.  I would imagine that is not what Conte wants to see.

 

I think, with the lack of defenders, but a good signing at DM, Conte may be focusing on an assured middle 3 ahead of a not so assured back 4.  Therefore, unless we sign another couple to play in the back 4, defensive responsibilities and athleticism will be a priority for those in the middle.

Who are these multiple gamechangers in top sides?  

If we had 3 world class centre midfielders like we used to, then i think we could get away with not have that creative type player.

However we don't, and we arent even close to having a midfield that good.

The times have change since that era, every too team have a centre midfielder in the fabregas mold, some have 2.

Weve seem this all before with mata, we need a fabregas in the team, even last night there were loads of occasions where hazard, and costa, were trying to play the neat little passes that were so effective in our title winning season, but matic and even oscar dont have the passing ability that Fabregas has to make it work.

You can guarentee if we sell fabregas, next summer this forum will be full of people saying we need to sign a creative centre midfielder.

which top team features a midfield player as slow and defensively undisciplined as fabregas in a midfield two or three?

which top team features a midfield player as slow and defensively undisciplined as fabregas in a midfield two or three?

 

Man City did for years with Toure, Real Madrid also with Kroos, Juventus with Pirlo a few years ago as well.

I should add that I think he's a really good player and I hope we keep him, just my observation is that if we're playing in a way where the central midfielders need to be hard running and capable of going beyond the striker, then fabregas isn't suited to that. 

 

for me it isn't a question of whether he can contribute defensively (in my view, depending on the shape and style of play he can), it is more about the type of football we played with and without the ball. without the ball he is a hard working player, but he isn't quick. he can't press like oscar. that is something that can be mitigated to a degree, but what he cannot do is sprint ahead of willian and costa repeatedly in a match. probably more than any defensive part of his game that is what could make it hard for him to start.

 

he could play as the deepest midfield player depending on the opponent and he could play as a second forward as well. otherwise the way the team is set up would need to change for him to be starting in midfield IMO.

Man City did for years with Toure, Real Madrid also with Kroos, Juventus with Pirlo a few years ago as well.

you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that will agree with you that fabregas matches toure for athleticism. as far as kroos goes, i think he's both faster than fab and more disciplined defensively, but i guess that can be argued. i don't think it's a coincidence that juventus' increased form in europe the past two-three years has come after pirlo's goodbye with the old lady either. for all the talent the italian had, he didn't have the legs to cut it against more the aggressive pressing he met in europe as opposed to serie a.

 

i think fabregas is a one-in-a-insert cliche talent technically, but barcelona sold him for a reason (one of the reasons being he didn't fit a high tempo high pressing style, everything conte seems to aspire to btw), and whilst we won the premier league two years with him dictating our play ago we were pretty soundly beaten in europe. i don't mind conte trying to find his own way for now, and who knows, maybe fabregas is playing against watford and that our midfield yesterday was purely a tactical decision.

Edited August 16, 20169 yr by opinionsarelike

The only difference between the first XI last season and the XI yesterday was Fabregas for Kante. And I have to say we looked a whole lot stronger in midfield yesterday, in fact I can't remember the last time we looked so solid in midfield.,,myabe Citeh away couple years ago when Matic owned Toure.

that's the only difference in personnel, sure, but the manager was different, the system was different, the style of play was different and the level of fitness was different. and we were playing against 10 different players.

 

I don't think there is any value in trying to argue that only one thing changed, and as a result of that one thing everything was better. 

that's the only difference in personnel, sure, but the manager was different, the system was different, the style of play was different and the level of fitness was different. and we were playing against 10 different players.

 

I don't think there is any value in trying to argue that only one thing changed, and as a result of that one thing everything was better. 

 

What zero argument ? No not for me. Last season we played a very similar WH XI and got shat on.

yeah I appreciate that (thought you were comparing opening day last season to last night), but with respect I have to repeat that the argument you're making doesn't work for me.

The only difference between the first XI last season and the XI yesterday was Fabregas for Kante. And I have to say we looked a whole lot stronger in midfield yesterday, in fact I can't remember the last time we looked so solid in midfield.,,myabe Citeh away couple years ago when Matic owned Toure.

 

and as a result, we didn't have that killer pass that can set up the likes of schurrle and costa free to score the goal... Looking extremely solid can only net you 1 point which is not enough for me..

Erm Except we got 3 points. Because we won.

Comparing cesc to toure and Kroos is hilarious.

Kroos' defensive discipline is amazing, as is his energy and consistently brilliant closing down and reading of the game. Next we will hear people compare cesc to makelele because even makelele was not "fast", right?

 

All this said, I still want Cesc ahead of oscar. Because I know exactly how oscar is going to fare. A proper Boom and bust graph.

The only difference between the first XI last season and the XI yesterday was Fabregas for Kante. And I have to say we looked a whole lot stronger in midfield yesterday, in fact I can't remember the last time we looked so solid in midfield.,,myabe Citeh away couple years ago when Matic owned Toure.

Along with the manager, the style of play, hazard's form (which is essential to our attack). 

Kroos' defensive discipline is amazing 

Played in a 2man mid for the world champs. 2time CL winner in a similar role. So yes, along with his control of play, his defensive discipling and understanding of the game as well as his small niggly tackles to stop the flow of the game are very good. Also the reason why he has successfully played as a DM for germany and RM in a few games.

But well....

Edited August 17, 20169 yr by didierforever

you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that will agree with you that fabregas matches toure for athleticism. as far as kroos goes, i think he's both faster than fab and more disciplined defensively, but i guess that can be argued. i don't think it's a coincidence that juventus' increased form in europe the past two-three years has come after pirlo's goodbye with the old lady either. for all the talent the italian had, he didn't have the legs to cut it against more the aggressive pressing he met in europe as opposed to serie a.

 

i think fabregas is a one-in-a-insert cliche talent technically, but barcelona sold him for a reason (one of the reasons being he didn't fit a high tempo high pressing style, everything conte seems to aspire to btw), and whilst we won the premier league two years with him dictating our play ago we were pretty soundly beaten in europe. i don't mind conte trying to find his own way for now, and who knows, maybe fabregas is playing against watford and that our midfield yesterday was purely a tactical decision.

 

Toure is only athletic when he is running towards the oppositions goal, when he has to track back he virtually walks back, Kroos is slow like Cesc, and struggles to defend against good teams like Cesc, Kroos was the most dribbled past player for Real Madrid last season as was Fabregas for Chelsea. Cesc makes more tackles, Kroos makes more interceptions, both have lapses of concentration, there is not much between them, the only real difference is Kroos plays in a much better midfield/team.

Thats like saying there is not much difference in willian and bale, the only real difference is that Bale plays in a better team.

Rubbish

Kroos plays in a better team because he is a better player in every way than Cesc. He is the player who actually makes a team a "better" team.

 

Barca before cesc: 2009:CL winners, 2010:Semi, 2011:winners

Barca after cesc: 2015: Winners, 2016:Qfs.

Meanwhile with cesc they dropped off a lot. Because as "creative" as cesc is, he can ruin a team's balance because of being such a massive liability.

 

Compare that to Kroos who in the last 3 years has won a world cup and 2 Champions League. 

Kroos is no makelele, he is not even a modric, but he can stand his own ground defensively. Also he is defensively very very disciplined. Can do a neat and clean job when needed to. 

Edited August 17, 20169 yr by didierforever

what bizarre logic!   pretty sure Willian and Bale dont have similar stats/attributes! 

 

as for Barca its hardly Cesc's fault Barca signed him when they didnt need him! they had Busquets - Xavi - Iniesta arguably the best midfield of the last 20 years, if they signed Kroos instead of Cesc, Kroos would have been benched as he wouldnt have been able to play all across the front line like Fabregas did for them.

 

Kroos winning a world cup and CL's is irrelevant! Germany was the best international team in the world and dominate possession, Real Madrid are top 2 in the world and dominate games, Kroos didnt win them those trophies, put Kroos in a midfield 2 with Matic for Chelsea in the PL and Kroos would struggle defensively there isnt any doubt about that! 

Edited August 17, 20169 yr by pacquiao

TROLOL.

Germany was no where near the best team. Brazil, Spain, argentina all had as good/better squads. Hell, germany did not even have Midfielders and actually played with Lahm as a DM for the first phase of the World cup.

So now winning WCs and CLs is irrelevant. And yet cesc could not win a CL with Barcelona (while Barcelona won the CL in the previous and the next) is not? 

Its also not surprising how far off we have fallen from the european elite, how far arsenal were and also shockingly how far away barca were from winning the CL with cesc. He is a CM who literally cant defend and has no defensive understanding of the game.

 

Also, "stats". LOL. People should try watching football rather than matching stats and making conculsions off them.

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/13812/History/Gareth-Bale
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/29463/History/Willian

 

Willian in UCL last season: Shots per Game - 2.1, Key Passes - 2.4, Dribbles - 3

Bale in UCL last season: Shots per Game - 3.8, Key Passes - 2.6, Dribbles - 2.8

 

Same/similar "STATS", right?

So must be that they have a similar style of play and impact, right?

STATS...   

TROLOL.

Germany was no where near the best team. Brazil, Spain, argentina all had as good/better squads. Hell, germany did not even have Midfielders and actually played with Lahm as a DM for the first phase of the World cup.

So now winning WCs and CLs is irrelevant. And yet cesc could not win a CL with Barcelona (while Barcelona won the CL in the previous and the next) is not? 

Its also not surprising how far off we have fallen from the european elite, how far arsenal were and also shockingly how far away barca were from winning the CL with cesc. He is a CM who literally cant defend and has no defensive understanding of the game.

 

Also, "stats". LOL. People should try watching football rather than matching stats and making conculsions off them.

Germany had the best team for sure, I had money on them to win that world cup from about a year beforehand, they had a good mix of maturing young players and seasoned veterans, the only area I would say they were lacking was in the striker department. You must be joking about them not having midfielders . . they had the best midfield selection on the planet, bar maybe Spain, and Lahm was played there because of how successful he was there under Guardiola in the preceding season. I don't know how you can think they had no midfield, off the top of my head they had; Schweinsteiger, Kroos, Lahm, Gotze, Muller, Khedira, Ozil and Schurrle. That's a pretty outstanding midfield by any standards. A much better midfield than Brazil or Argentina, and a much better defence than any of the teams you mentioned there, plus they played as an 11 man unit. And didn't they beat the so-called 'better' Brazil team 7-1, and the 'better' Argentina team in the final?

 

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/13812/History/Gareth-Bale

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/29463/History/Willian

 

Willian in UCL last season: Shots per Game - 2.1, Key Passes - 2.4, Dribbles - 3

Bale in UCL last season: Shots per Game - 3.8, Key Passes - 2.6, Dribbles - 2.8

 

Same/similar "STATS", right?

So must be that they have a similar style of play and impact, right?

STATS...   

I agree that stats never tell the full story, they have their uses, but didn't someone on here have a stat from a year or two ago that showed Andros Townsend was on par with Ronaldo? 

Edited August 17, 20169 yr by RMCM