Willian

[Stim]

6 minutes ago, dkw said:

Anyone blaming willian for a manager failing to pick a different player is an idiot. Whats he supposed to do, say "No boss, pick him instead of me, I`m a bit sh*t". 

Especially in of, if not THE most rotatable position of them all.

[big blue]

2 hours ago, Skinnedy said:

I agree. He's played OK. But again, if you ask me if I'd rather have OK, or £50m+ to reinvest in the squad... well... I think of him as a luxury player. 

I think we can all agree we need upgrades on the wings in the very near future no matter what you think of Willian simply because of his age. It worries me that we might have missed a chance to sell high on him. I think he's very popular with his teammates, Hazard in particular, and that may be the No. 1 reason he wasn't sold. With a new coach coming in, the cohesion was needed. He's a depreciating asset on a team that uses assets for reinvestment. When I watch him play, I don't see £50m on the pitch... I see "OK". And I'd rather see £50m. 

It's not as easy as all that, I get that... but we know exactly what we're getting out of Willian. 5-7 goals per season. Shouldn't we be hoping for more? I am... Shouldn't we be able to get more for £50m? I think so...

When I speak of oversized role, I don't mean on the pitch... I'd love for him to have an oversized role. I'd love for him to be as feared in the front three as some of our closest rivals... I was speaking more of how visible/vocal he was in the media last year and leading into this year. I know the negative headlines get more attention, but I for one was as tired of hearing about him and his unhappiness as I was about Courtois. He is being made out to be a critical part of the squad as an attacking wing that barely outproduces our left back.

I'm not sure where you are pulling this £50m from. Nobody knows what Barcelona actually offered, so I think it's unfair to call Willian a £50m asset, and judge him based on a speculative number. 

It would be great if he chipped in with a few goals, but we haven't exactly been a free scoring team during his time here. We have generally won title with defensive discipline. 

I agree we need fresh ideas in attack, and one of Willian or pedro will have to make way in next 12 months to make room for a new signing. 

I just think Willian is one of them players that fans love to dig out. He has to have an 8/10 game, or there is a section of fans that call for his head. 

 

 

 

[Skinnedy]

41 minutes ago, big blue said:

I'm not sure where you are pulling this £50m from. Nobody knows what Barcelona actually offered, so I think it's unfair to call Willian a £50m asset, and judge him based on a speculative number. 

It might be. I almost always try and hedge that statement by saying it might not have happened, though it doesn't take long to find that every major news outlet including Sky, Guardian, Telegraph quoted 55 as fact.

So, I'll still refer to my other two reasons I'm critical of Willian, like I said, I won't speak for everyone, just trying to give some perspective from someone who isn't thrilled with him... I thought he acted incredibly unprofessionally last season, and I would like to see more production from the position... that being the case, If we can get a premium price for him, I would be happy to sell. I'm not saying he’s bad and should never play again, I'm just saying I think we can do better. I don't think that's too extreme a position to take in this case.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Skinnedy
Typing on glass typos

[big blue]

7 minutes ago, Skinnedy said:

It might be. I almost always try and hedge that statement by saying it might not have happened, though it doesn't take long to find that every major news outlet including Sky, Guardian, Telegraph quoted 55 as fact.

So, I'll still refer to my other two reasons I'm critical of Willian, like I said, I won't speak for everyone, just trying to give some perspective from someone who isn't thrilled with him... I thought he acted incredibly unprofessionally last season, and I would like to see more production from the position... that being the case, If we can get a premium price for him, I would be happy to sell. I'm not saying his bad and should never play again, I'm just saying I thing we can do better. I don't think that's too extreme a position to take in this case.

Sorry forgot to answer the point about the unprofessionalism, and I wholeheartedly agree with you on that point. It was immature and not what you would expect from a 29 year old. 

Willian isn't my favourite either in all honesty, and if we were offered £50m, we should've taken it, however knowing how both ourselves and Barcelona operate, I would highly doubt we would turn down that amount, and id doubt Barcelona would offer that for a 30 year old aswell. 

[Davey Baby]

Against Derby Willian was our best player. I say this firstly because it's true and secondly because he drew a lot of criticism on these boards after that game, which showed me that people's perceptions are skewed. He was excellent against Derby. People banged on about RLC but Willian was far better. There's a reason he starts every game under Sarri, or has started the last 11 or 12 games. He's not so good you need to rest him for the lesser games, like Hazard, but he's not so bad you can leave him out of the games that matter. Until we have someone better he plays, and he'll play against Everton on Sunday.

 

Go on a Derby forum, take a look at what they made of him after their game against us. They were the better side they deserved to win player for player they were better than us, but they're all raving about Willian, saying he was the only player that looked a cut above theirs. They just don't get to see that level of quality against their side. I was amazed that he drew criticism for that game. Some of his plays were excellent.

 

For my money he doesn't do it enough against the big sides. Against small sides he often excels because he's a cut above their level, but against stronger players he doesn't shine in the same way. Sometimes he does, obviously, but not often enough. If he played like he did against Barcelona last season, home and away, consistently, he'd be a great player. When he hits a purple patch, he looks a great player, but he's not a great player because he doesn't do it often enough, he can't produce the sparkle reliably, and that's what you need if you want to be a top side. You need consistent performers. Drogba, Terry, Lampard, Cole, Cech, Ivanovic, these were great players because they were utterly consistent. Sure, they had periods of poor form, like all players, but on the whole they were top performers every week, as Hazard is. Hazard is a great player Willian isn't, we all know that, but when he's on his game, like he was for a brief spell last season, he looks almost as good as Hazard.

 

Now, if you're a creative, or a winger, it's far harder to be consistent. Top wingers are few and far between, really top wingers. I was dismayed we didn't go after Mahrez these last two seasons but people on these boards regularly bemoaned his inconsistency. Magical players that turn it on every week are a rare breed and attract crazy money, because they are the players that change a club's fortunes. Obviously we'd all like that player on the right hand side but good luck getting him. Salah looks to be one unfortunately bit it's taken him a while to get there. Willian will never get there, he'll never have that cutting edge, he'll never have that killer instinct, but he's a good player. He really is a good player.

 

Look at Dembele and Malcom at Barca. They want to sell them. It's easy to say sign this player or that player but you might quickly get frustrated with any new purchase. For me the obvious replacement was Mahrez but I was in a minority. Willian has done well since he's come to Chelsea. On the whole he's done very well. He isn't what we'd all hoped for but he's a lot better than he could have been. I understand the frustration with him but I think he gets a bad press on these boards generally. He's a good player, and he's having a good season, despite what some of you think. He's having a really good season. Not Hazard levels, obviously, but he's playing his part. We're having a good season and he's playing his part.

 

Since he joined us he's played for Mourinho and Conte, two defensive managers, if I can call them that. Pragmatic, cautious managers, shall we say. They don't allow a lot of freedom. Sarri is letting Willian fly a little bit more. I think some of you are fixed in the way you see him and you can't see he's having a good season. He's impressing under a new manager with a different idea of how to play the game.

 

Firstly, Sarri likes possession. If you want possession you need players who can control the ball. Willian gives you that. You get control with him, the problem has always been attacking edge, the problem has always been a killer instinct, the key pass. Sarri demands that too. He wants the ball moved forward quickly and penetratively. He wants decisive attacking football. For me, Willian has done well on that score so far this season, not spectacularly but well and people need to see it. We're only a quarter way through the season and this video was made a few weeks ago, before Derby, where he played excellently, before Palace, where he had a good goal disallowed, before Utd, where he hit the corner from which Rudiger scored, before Burnley where he scored an excellent goal. A game we won 4-0 by the way, without Hazard.

 

He's making runs in behind, he's beating players, he's getting to the touchline and crossing, he's linking well, he's scoring and assisting. He's having a good season folks. It's about time he got his dues. 

 

We're undefeated, just in case any of you were unsure.

 

 

[strider6004]

I've said this before that Willian shines in Hazard's absence as he does his best work down the left.

Much more likely to score from that side cutting in from the left.

When he is on form he can easily and swift get past his first man and with that explosive short sprint he has then create space on the edge of the box.

Much less likely to see that when Hazard is playing.

 

[Hemel Blue]

I am a big Willian fan.I hope he takes as much notice of his critics as i do.

[rtwelch]

On 08/11/2018 at 16:21, Skinnedy said:

Yeah, I was just throwing it out there for discussion, that’s why there’s a question mark behind it. Not a definitive statement. 

Again, I won’t speak for all Chelsea fans, just this one, as to why I’m critical of Willian.

1. I thought he handled himself extremely unprofessionally last year. He wasn’t the only one that had a problem with Conte, but considering he hadn’t his most productive seasons under the manager, I thought he could have been more of a pro. 

2. And again, I qualify this as knowing it’s just smoke, but I would rather have £50M to reinvest in a young winger than Willian right now.

3. I think we can get better production out of the position. 

i don’t think he’s terrible. But I think he’s over valued based on the production, and I think he’s a good squad player. 

And if he’s overvalued, I’d just as soon cash in on him while he still has value, because of his age. 

It's an unpopular opinion but i'd sell Willian & get a better player. I don't think we'd be worse off without him.

[Kev56]

1 hour ago, rtwelch said:

It's an unpopular opinion but i'd sell Willian & get a better player. I don't think we'd be worse off without him.

Me too.

[Stim]

[brownindian]

Sell Willian for how much ? If it is 45 - 55 million that Barcelona is apparently willing to pay then yes. If it is for something like 30 or below then not worth it. 

[Bigthrobberus]

tracked back covering azza today

hes a funny one

hot cold warm wet rinse repeat!

[Davey Baby]

12 minutes ago, Bigthrobberus said:

tracked back covering azza today

hes a funny one

hot cold warm wet rinse repeat!

 

He's seldom cold this season, if at all.

 

Today he was very good but he was taken off at just the wrong time, when we were really starting to exert our authority and a goal felt inevitable.

 

Sadly he had a golden opportunity and he should have squared it to Morata, who was all alone.

 

It's this lack of awareness or composure that will often let him down.

 

As I said in my long post above, a good player, not a top one.

[strider6004]

1 hour ago, Davey Baby said:

 

He's seldom cold this season, if at all.

 

Today he was very good but he was taken off at just the wrong time, when we were really starting to exert our authority and a goal felt inevitable.

 

Sadly he had a golden opportunity and he should have squared it to Morata, who was all alone.

 

It's this lack of awareness or composure that will often let him down.

 

As I said in my long post above, a good player, not a top one.

Agree with one caveat, he has a golden period each season for a few matches where he does look a £70m player yet it never lasts long.

[yorkleyblue]

On 09/11/2018 at 20:59, Davey Baby said:

Against Derby Willian was our best player. I say this firstly because it's true and secondly because he drew a lot of criticism on these boards after that game, which showed me that people's perceptions are skewed. He was excellent against Derby. People banged on about RLC but Willian was far better. There's a reason he starts every game under Sarri, or has started the last 11 or 12 games. He's not so good you need to rest him for the lesser games, like Hazard, but he's not so bad you can leave him out of the games that matter. Until we have someone better he plays, and he'll play against Everton on Sunday.

 

Go on a Derby forum, take a look at what they made of him after their game against us. They were the better side they deserved to win player for player they were better than us, but they're all raving about Willian, saying he was the only player that looked a cut above theirs. They just don't get to see that level of quality against their side. I was amazed that he drew criticism for that game. Some of his plays were excellent.

 

For my money he doesn't do it enough against the big sides. Against small sides he often excels because he's a cut above their level, but against stronger players he doesn't shine in the same way. Sometimes he does, obviously, but not often enough. If he played like he did against Barcelona last season, home and away, consistently, he'd be a great player. When he hits a purple patch, he looks a great player, but he's not a great player because he doesn't do it often enough, he can't produce the sparkle reliably, and that's what you need if you want to be a top side. You need consistent performers. Drogba, Terry, Lampard, Cole, Cech, Ivanovic, these were great players because they were utterly consistent. Sure, they had periods of poor form, like all players, but on the whole they were top performers every week, as Hazard is. Hazard is a great player Willian isn't, we all know that, but when he's on his game, like he was for a brief spell last season, he looks almost as good as Hazard.

 

Now, if you're a creative, or a winger, it's far harder to be consistent. Top wingers are few and far between, really top wingers. I was dismayed we didn't go after Mahrez these last two seasons but people on these boards regularly bemoaned his inconsistency. Magical players that turn it on every week are a rare breed and attract crazy money, because they are the players that change a club's fortunes. Obviously we'd all like that player on the right hand side but good luck getting him. Salah looks to be one unfortunately bit it's taken him a while to get there. Willian will never get there, he'll never have that cutting edge, he'll never have that killer instinct, but he's a good player. He really is a good player.

 

Look at Dembele and Malcom at Barca. They want to sell them. It's easy to say sign this player or that player but you might quickly get frustrated with any new purchase. For me the obvious replacement was Mahrez but I was in a minority. Willian has done well since he's come to Chelsea. On the whole he's done very well. He isn't what we'd all hoped for but he's a lot better than he could have been. I understand the frustration with him but I think he gets a bad press on these boards generally. He's a good player, and he's having a good season, despite what some of you think. He's having a really good season. Not Hazard levels, obviously, but he's playing his part. We're having a good season and he's playing his part.

 

Since he joined us he's played for Mourinho and Conte, two defensive managers, if I can call them that. Pragmatic, cautious managers, shall we say. They don't allow a lot of freedom. Sarri is letting Willian fly a little bit more. I think some of you are fixed in the way you see him and you can't see he's having a good season. He's impressing under a new manager with a different idea of how to play the game.

 

Firstly, Sarri likes possession. If you want possession you need players who can control the ball. Willian gives you that. You get control with him, the problem has always been attacking edge, the problem has always been a killer instinct, the key pass. Sarri demands that too. He wants the ball moved forward quickly and penetratively. He wants decisive attacking football. For me, Willian has done well on that score so far this season, not spectacularly but well and people need to see it. We're only a quarter way through the season and this video was made a few weeks ago, before Derby, where he played excellently, before Palace, where he had a good goal disallowed, before Utd, where he hit the corner from which Rudiger scored, before Burnley where he scored an excellent goal. A game we won 4-0 by the way, without Hazard.

 

He's making runs in behind, he's beating players, he's getting to the touchline and crossing, he's linking well, he's scoring and assisting. He's having a good season folks. It's about time he got his dues. 

 

We're undefeated, just in case any of you were unsure.

 

A damn fine summation @Davey Baby.  I've highlighted some bits that I agree strongly with.  Not as sure as you were, even now, about Mahrez, and I'm still  waiting to see if Salah wasn't a one-season wonder.

Ultimately, as regards Willian, I have said many times that he is a good player who has off moments (don't we all? ) but that a lot of people in here have a preconceived position about him, and will trot out the same cut and paste criticisms every match, regardless of how well or how pants he has played.  

I did notice that whilst the usual suspects were posting the usual nonsense about Willian during yesterday's match, he actually got a standing ovation from the whole ground when he was substituted.

Different views from the stands and on the telly, I suppose.

Any road up, mate, we'll just keep on plugging away because,  whilst I accept that Willian doesn't perform the exact role that a lot of people think he should, he obviously performs the role that two world-class and one excellent, but as yet unproven, manager  have all required of him. 

I used to plow a solitary furrow in defence of Mikel as well, and for the same reasons.

[Barry Bridges]

Apparently he leads the league is chances created at 35 with Hazard 2nd at 32.....again, for the whole BPL not just Chelsea....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-6410973/Anthony-Martial-Premier-Leagues-deadliest-forward-Jorginho-ultimate-pass-master.html

 

Jorginho leads in passing and Kante's top 5 for passing too.

[yorkleyblue]

A couple of interesting threads started up in the last couple of days, the Joey Cole retires thread and the 1000 goals in the league thread.  Joey being rightly praised as being a great Chelsea winger and someone posted a video of all his goals.

One of the big criticisms of Willian is his lack of goal-scoring end product.  Turns out he has scored exactly the same number of goals as Joey, more than Robben and Duff and twice as many as Remy, Ba, Sturridge and Batshuayi, all dedicated strikers.

Just an observation on my part really.

[Stim]

6 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

One of the big criticisms of Willian is his lack of goal-scoring end product.  Turns out he has scored exactly the same number of goals as Joey, more than Robben and Duff and twice as many as Remy, Ba, Sturridge and Batshuayi, all dedicated strikers.

The Joe Cole comparison works, similar amount of games and goals. But he dwarfs the rest of them in games played.

[yorkleyblue]

doesn't really matter, does it.  Some of us appreciate what he does, some are ambivalent and some just dislike the bloke so take every opportunity so slag him off.  Just saying he was the same as Joey Cole when it comes to "end product" is all.

[Nibs]

29 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

A couple of interesting threads started up in the last couple of days, the Joey Cole retires thread and the 1000 goals in the league thread.  Joey being rightly praised as being a great Chelsea winger and someone posted a video of all his goals.

One of the big criticisms of Willian is his lack of goal-scoring end product.  Turns out he has scored exactly the same number of goals as Joey, more than Robben and Duff and twice as many as Remy, Ba, Sturridge and Batshuayi, all dedicated strikers.

Just an observation on my part really.

Kindly keep your observations to yourself @yorkleyblue!

Despite what the stats may say, he ain't fit to lace Joey's boots!!

 

[yorkleyblue]

3 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Kindly keep your observations to yourself @yorkleyblue!

Despite what the stats may say, he ain't fit to lace Joey's boots!!

 

And I never said he was   This place gets a bit cluttered up with whiney little gurls and their "wah wah wah, he's got no "end product", and all I was saying was he has the same end product as Joey, with whom they have no problems.

I don't know why it is, but some people have taken against Willian, and have a stock set of cut and paste derogatory comments ready and waiting to go whenever he plays, regardless of how he has actually played.

He'd actually been on the pitch less than two minutes the other night before some dick posted something along the lines of "Our play is really slow with Willian on the pitch"

[Wearyourblue]

It can be both with Willian, I disagree with he fits in well with a team trying to play a lot of one - touch two touch, he's too technically loose imo, first touch is rarely tidy enough for me.

Willian's at his best when he has room to counter and run, and then he's dangerous.  You have to love when he gets a chance run with the ball laterally across the top of the box, he's very dangerous.  Games like derby where they try to take away the first line and  force you to launch big balls to get in behind are where he shines. 

My biggest problem with Willian is not really Willian, he clogs a spot for CHO, as the back up to Hazard on the left.  I'd sell Willian, get better on the right, and let CHO have the left backup spot.  I think Hudson-Odoi is better right now today than Willian, and view him as a future star, that needs to be kept happy and improving.  Willian's not good enough now to be considered a key squad member, and he cannot cost us CHO long term.

[Skinnedy]

28 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

Some of us appreciate what he does, some are ambivalent and some just dislike the bloke so take every opportunity so slag him off.

Some of us appreciate what he does, and the rest of you are wrong.... lol ... love that post. 

[Nibs]

12 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

And I never said he was   This place gets a bit cluttered up with whiney little gurls and their "wah wah wah, he's got no "end product", and all I was saying was he has the same end product as Joey, with whom they have no problems.

I don't know why it is, but some people have taken against Willian, and have a stock set of cut and paste derogatory comments ready and waiting to go whenever he plays, regardless of how he has actually played.

He'd actually been on the pitch less than two minutes the other night before some dick posted something along the lines of "Our play is really slow with Willian on the pitch"

I know. There always has to be at least one player for us supporters to gripe about - be it valid or not.

Got to be honest, Willian frustrates me and pretty much always has. Appreciate how good he can be and what he brings to the team, but more often than not he just doesn't do enough. Could be the South American mentality, but he's another player who seems to play within himself.

I second the poster above - wouldn't be against us getting what we can for Willian and let CHO flourish when he gets the chance (which would obviously be more often if we sold Willian).

Either that or coax Joey Cole out of retirement..............................

 

[yorkleyblue]

2 minutes ago, Wearyourblue said:

 first touch is rarely tidy enough for me.

I disagree with this bit - I mentioned in a match recently about him taking long high balls out of the air with a single touch.  I think Willian and Alonso have the best first touch in teh squad.

Willian's at his best when he has room to counter and run, and then he's dangerous.  You have to love when he gets a chance run with the ball laterally across the top of the box, he's very dangerous.  Games like derby where they try to take away the first line and  force you to launch big balls to get in behind are where he shines. 

Agree wholly with this.  And I get excited when he picks the ball up deep in our half and runs the length of the pitch (almost).  Then I quickly get unexcited because quite often he either missed the obvious pass (obvious from up in the stands, anyway) , or has to stop and wait while Morata gets an Uber back onside.

My biggest problem with Willian is not really Willian, he clogs a spot for CHO, as the back up to Hazard on the left.  I'd sell Willian, get better on the right, and let CHO have the left backup spot.  I think Hudson-Odoi is better right now today than Willian, and view him as a future star, that needs to be kept happy and improving.  Willian's not good enough now to be considered a key squad member, and he cannot cost us CHO long term.

Again, I agree that Willian may well be ahead of CHO in the pecking order but there is no way on this earth that CHO is better already.  He is obviously very good, and I believe will  go on to be a huge star, either with us or elsewhere, but then I thought that about Kakuta and Scott Sinclair as well.  But he has many many young player's flaws that only time and e3xperience will iron out.  He will be a stratospheric level above Willian eventually, but is nowhere near that now.