2 hours ago, yorkleyblue said:

That's the pure and utter joy of hindsight.

The repetitive joys...

Every time someone mentions it from now on I’ll strangle a kitten! You’ve all been warned!

2 hours ago, yorkleyblue said:

That's the pure and utter joy of hindsight.

For me, yes. For a top class manager, who had the luxury of constantly watching those two in training, to be so blind, it makes you wonder about his judgment.

Edited February 15, 20188 yr by abramovich

True, but the two best players in the Premier League this season makes you want to pull your hair out (or at least scream at Mourinho about how stupid and pigheaded he is/was).

31 minutes ago, Phillip said:

True, but the two best players in the Premier League this season makes you want to pull your hair out (or at least scream at Mourinho about how stupid and pigheaded he is/was).

Phillip, you brute, the death of a cute little kitten is now on your conscience 

Edited February 15, 20188 yr by Valerie

1 hour ago, abramovich said:

For me, yes. For a top class manager, who had the luxury of constantly watching those two in training, to be so blind, it makes you wonder about his judgment.

 

52 minutes ago, Phillip said:

True, but the two best players in the Premier League this season makes you want to pull your hair out (or at least scream at Mourinho about how stupid and pigheaded he is/was).

OR, a top-class manager saw nothing in performances, attitude or training AT THAT TIME to justify keeping two players who then went on to gain experience elsewhere.  And De Bruyne wanted to leave, it's not like he was kicked out the door.

Tell me, honestly, who would either DeBruyne or Salah have replaced in the first team at the time they were with us?

Also, I have asked many, many times for someone to show or tell me ONE thing that De Bruyne did WHILE HE WAS WITH US to justify saying that he should not be let go.  No-one has come up with anything except for a goal in a pre-season friendly that he got injured while scoring.  Nothing.  Nada. Diddly.  Sweet Fanny Adams.  Despite me asking this over and over again.

I have never said that KdB isn't a top player now, but this monotonous whingeing on in 20/20 hindsight really does get me down.  Yes, he's good now, no, he wasn't that good then.  With what the club and manager saw then, it was right to let him go.  With what we know now, we wish we had a time machine.  But FFS, either justify WHY he should have been kept on, or let it f**king go!

 

Salah was nothing but a slightly younger SWP when he was with us.  He went off to a different league, gained experience, got better and ended up at a team that suits his particular skill-set perfectly.  He is having a great season, but was like a small dog chasing a tennis ball when he played in a blue shirt.  Again, it was right to let him( and Cuadrado) go, so now it's time for you to let it go.

1 hour ago, Munkworth said:

The repetitive joys...

Every time someone mentions it from now on I’ll strangle a kitten! You’ve all been warned!

Repetitive joys is what @yorkleyblue calls multiple orgasms.

I can't let go, sorry.    Especially when I see the not-so-nice one with his smug face at ManU.

 

Thanks for clarifying that, Moi.  I was not sure what Val was on about, now I know.

 

And didn't de Gea want out of ManU a few seasons ago -- they held on to him, and now he is the World's best keeper.

Edited February 15, 20188 yr by Phillip

@Phillip I would be more than happy to say it was a mistake if anyone at all could show me anything at all as to why it wasn't right at the time, but all I ever get  is "Waaa Waaa Waaa Mourinho didn't like his face" or "He didn't get a proper chance" or "it just ain't fair"

Never any objective positive argument or justification, just people whining because the KdB of today is nothing like the one who played (badly) for us.

Whilst I think that everyone who saw the performances of KDB and Salah, in the very short time they were with us, can agree neither sparkled. It is though the job of the very highly paid professional manager to spot potential, yes it can be called hindsight but that is why he is paid so much and we aren't. Mourinho has to be accountable in his poor handling of club assets, not least in DeBruyne, a player who tore up the Bundesliga the previous season, failed so miserably under his control and trebled in value 12 months after leaving. That is neglect of duty no matter what spin is put on it. Jose though as we all know has his favourites and prefers not to coach younger players who require the arm around them, a trait also seen at other clubs he has managed. He is immensely successful but in the case of these two, the wrong manager for that stage of their careers. 

I really wish there was a blanket ban on KdB/Salah discussion now. It’s taking over every topic. 

Anyway, that Pedro geezer likes to run around a lot doesn’t he?

40 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

 

OR, a top-class manager saw nothing in performances, attitude or training AT THAT TIME to justify keeping two players who then went on to gain experience elsewhere.  And De Bruyne wanted to leave, it's not like he was kicked out the door.

Tell me, honestly, who would either DeBruyne or Salah have replaced in the first team at the time they were with us?

Also, I have asked many, many times for someone to show or tell me ONE thing that De Bruyne did WHILE HE WAS WITH US to justify saying that he should not be let go.  No-one has come up with anything except for a goal in a pre-season friendly that he got injured while scoring.  Nothing.  Nada. Diddly.  Sweet Fanny Adams.  Despite me asking this over and over again.

I have never said that KdB isn't a top player now, but this monotonous whingeing on in 20/20 hindsight really does get me down.  Yes, he's good now, no, he wasn't that good then.  With what the club and manager saw then, it was right to let him go.  With what we know now, we wish we had a time machine.  But FFS, either justify WHY he should have been kept on, or let it f**king go!

 

Salah was nothing but a slightly younger SWP when he was with us.  He went off to a different league, gained experience, got better and ended up at a team that suits his particular skill-set perfectly.  He is having a great season, but was like a small dog chasing a tennis ball when he played in a blue shirt.  Again, it was right to let him( and Cuadrado) go, so now it's time for you to let it go.

That's what, among other things, he was paid for, to assess the players he's got at his disposal and make decisions based on what his expert mind and experience told him. He failed in that respect, pure amd simple.

 

1 hour ago, abramovich said:

That's what, among other things, he was paid for, to assess the players he's got at his disposal and make decisions based on what his expert mind and experience told him. He failed in that respect, pure amd simple.

 

I know this is a Pedro thread, and I'm not singling you out here Abramoich, but one thing that Jose can never be accused of is developing young talent.  He looked at KDB, decided that he wasn't going to help the team win at that point, and he wasn't going to take over one of his favourite players in Oscar, so he got rid.  Pure and simple.  

He's gone now, and in hindsight it sucks, but the pressure our managers are under to win NOW, is one of the reasons that many of us lament the Youth never getting a cahnce, just as many lament how KDB was let go.

6 hours ago, charierre said:

Whilst I think that everyone who saw the performances of KDB and Salah, in the very short time they were with us, can agree neither sparkled. It is though the job of the very highly paid professional manager to spot potential, yes it can be called hindsight but that is why he is paid so much and we aren't. Mourinho has to be accountable in his poor handling of club assets, not least in DeBruyne, a player who tore up the Bundesliga the previous season, failed so miserably under his control and trebled in value 12 months after leaving. That is neglect of duty no matter what spin is put on it. Jose though as we all know has his favourites and prefers not to coach younger players who require the arm around them, a trait also seen at other clubs he has managed. He is immensely successful but in the case of these two, the wrong manager for that stage of their careers. 

Just got to look at Luke Shaw now, under the trust and love of the right manager he could be the best LB in the league, Mourinho would rather keep playing a 32 yr old Ashley Young, as much as I loved Mourinho I honestly don't think any other manager in the league would come to the same point of view.

15 hours ago, abramovich said:

That's what, among other things, he was paid for, to assess the players he's got at his disposal and make decisions based on what his expert mind and experience told him. He failed in that respect, pure amd simple.

 

And that's what he did - assessed and then decided KdB was not up to the task of replacing seasoned internationals in the first team AT THAT TIME.  De Bruyne decided he was not willing to be patient so left.  Where is your counter argument that says De Bruyne was obviously better than the first team players at the time?  What evidence do you have?

2 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

And that's what he did - assessed and then decided KdB was not up to the task of replacing seasoned internationals in the first team AT THAT TIME.  De Bruyne decided he was not willing to be patient so left.  Where is your counter argument that says De Bruyne was obviously better than the first team players at the time?  What evidence do you have?

I agree about Salah, Lukaku but i just can't when it comes to KDB, sorry.

Salah and Rom never really shown anything with us and despite the former becoming world class i can understand why we didn't cling on for the off chance, but KDB, in my opinion, warranted more games at the very start. It may have only been pre season and his MOTM debut may have been only Hull but the performances earned a run in the team, not unconditional run but to be totally froze out after a meh performance at Old Trafford (a ground where even Hazard and Drogba are/were below par more often than not) was harsh to say the least. If he got the minutes Mata (under Jose), Salah or even Cuadrado got and was piss poor throughout then fair enough but post August he only played in the League Cup (plus like 1 five minute cameo) which (up until the semi final) is treated as a mere one step above a friendly by managers these days

35 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

And that's what he did - assessed and then decided KdB was not up to the task of replacing seasoned internationals in the first team AT THAT TIME.  De Bruyne decided he was not willing to be patient so left.  Where is your counter argument that says De Bruyne was obviously better than the first team players at the time?  What evidence do you have?

Well he was MOTM in the opener against Hull. Assisted our first goal as well.

Then for some reason he was completely frozen out and only got a few more chances to play on some sh*tty lower-league pitches in the cups.
And it was Oscar who kept De Bruyne out of the team, not the seasoned internationals.

21 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Well he was MOTM in the opener against Hull. Assisted our first goal as well.

Then for some reason he was completely frozen out and only got a few more chances to play on some sh*tty lower-league pitches in the cups.
And it was Oscar who kept De Bruyne out of the team, not the seasoned internationals.

"On the opening day of the season, Mourinho puts De Bruyne in the starting XI against Hull, alongside Hazard and Oscar." - Not competing with Oscar for that one.

He wasn't frozen out, he wasn't actually good enough then to compete with Mata, Hazard, Oscar, Schurrle and eventually Willian as well.  ALL internationals.  Tell me which one of those he was better than at the time?

People blaming Mourinho seem to be ignoring that and the fact that Mourinho said  “If De Bruyne doesn’t play 20 games this season, than it’s because he doesn’t deserve it. If he deserves it, he will play. If you guys in Belgium are afraid, talk to him. Put pressure on him. Tell him, ‘Hey kid, you have to become man of the match’. I can live with that. Kevin is a great player, but there’s a lot of competition. In the national place he’s probably a guaranteed starter, and with Werder too. But this is another level. "

 

And then "he gets his chance to prove Mourinho wrong in the Capital One Cup game against Swindon, but he fails to impress. He’s hooked after 78 minutes. The manager doesn’t like what he sees. He leaves de Bruyne of out the squad for the game at Spurs. Mourinho explains in his press conference: “If we all agree that Juan Mata deserves his chance, I have to leave one player out of the squad. Kevin hasn’t convinced me against Swindon, so he’s out of the squad. Kevin has to understand that Chelsea aren’t Werder Bremen. You have to fight for your spot every single training and every single game. The next time he’s play – and he will play – he has to understand he plays for his next game.”

Mourinho also said in a press conference " I try to be honest with Kevin. He’s not selected because I didn’t like the match he played against Swindon and I didn’t like the way he was training."

Why is it that people just can't accept he was not great for us, has become a great player with experience, but that a team fighting for top honours cannot afford to play some one of a lower level for weeks and weeks in the hope that he will come good and be a world beater.  With hindsight, maybe he could have been kept.  At the time he did NOTHING to warrant displacing any of the other attacking midfielders in the team..

Edited February 16, 20188 yr by yorkleyblue

15 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

"On the opening day of the season, Mourinho puts De Bruyne in the starting XI against Hull, alongside Hazard and Oscar." - Not competing with Oscar for that one.

He wasn't frozen out, he wasn't actually good enough then to compete with Mata, Hazard, Oscar, Schurrle and eventually Willian as well.  ALL internationals.  Tell me which one of those he was better than at the time?

People blaming Mourinho seem to be ignoring that and the fact that Mourinho said  “If De Bruyne doesn’t play 20 games this season, than it’s because he doesn’t deserve it. If he deserves it, he will play. If you guys in Belgium are afraid, talk to him. Put pressure on him. Tell him, ‘Hey kid, you have to become man of the match’. I can live with that. Kevin is a great player, but there’s a lot of competition. In the national place he’s probably a guaranteed starter, and with Werder too. But this is another level. "

 

And then "he gets his chance to prove Mourinho wrong in the Capital One Cup game against Swindon, but he fails to impress. He’s hooked after 78 minutes. The manager doesn’t like what he sees. He leaves de Bruyne of out the squad for the game at Spurs. Mourinho explains in his press conference: “If we all agree that Juan Mata deserves his chance, I have to leave one player out of the squad. Kevin hasn’t convinced me against Swindon, so he’s out of the squad. Kevin has to understand that Chelsea aren’t Werder Bremen. You have to fight for your spot every single training and every single game. The next time he’s play – and he will play – he has to understand he plays for his next game.”

Why is it that people just can't accept he was not great for us, has become a great player with experience, but that a team fighting for top honours cannot afford to play some one of a lower level for weeks and weeks in the hope that he will come good and be a world beater.  With hindsight, maybe he could have been kept.  At the time he did NOTHING to warrant displacing any of the other attacking midfielders in the team..

I believe he was always better than Oscar and most certainly Schurrle. Mourinho prefered Oscar due to his workrate defensivly and although they both played together against Hull, Oscar was mostly the guy to keep De Bruyne out of the team. And in case you don't know, De Bruyne was also an international for Belgium at the time and coming off a season where he tore up the Bundesliga for Werder Bremen.

I think we can all accept De Bruyne wasn't great for us. But i think what many of us are saying is that, that is probably more down to Mourinho being Mourinho than De Bruyne lacking quality. He didn't get the chances he should have got, bottom line.

Put pressure on him. Tell him, ‘Hey kid, you have to become man of the match’

Thats what he did become against Hull. Next game benched.
Then he got to be part of a parked bus at Old Trafford for 60 minutes before he was scrapped by the manager basically.

Great management.
 

 

Edited February 16, 20188 yr by Sindre

yeah, it was really not fair,  Probably some big boys in the team stole his ice-cream money too.

He was pants. He went away. He got good. No-one has shown me anything to prove WHY he should have had more chances.  Not good enough then, didn't fit the team or the manager's tactics, didn't train well, got sold.

Got better and got bought by a rival.  Turns out to be very good several years later.  Right decision all round at the time.

Anyone saying different now is being disingenuous at best and outright lying at worst.

I've really had enough now. This will be my last comment on the bollocks that people keep on whingeing on about cack players who we sold who then got better with age at another club.

Thats fine. But one can't get away from the fact that De Bruyne was voted the best players in a Bundesliga that had Guardiolas Bayern in the season after we sold him.

So its not like he's just coming around right now to be one of the best players in the world.

13 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

He was pants. He went away. He got good.

did he really only get good once he was sold? if we look at de bruynes form in the league, he has delivered on the same level every year bar his very few games for us. the sore thumb, the outlier, is his stint in a blue chelsea shirt - he's been the best player (and one of the best in his league) in every other team, both previous to him being here and afterwards.

11/12 (last season in belgium):
games: 22
goals: 8
assists: 10
minutes: 1813 min

12/13 (loan to werder): 
games: 33
goals: 10
assists: 9
minutes: 2966 min

13/14:

for us:
games: 3
goals: 0
assists: 1
minutes: 132

for wolfsburg (from january):
games: 16
goals: 3
assists: 6
minutes 1496 mins

14/15 (full season with wolfsburg):
games: 34
goals: 10
assists: 21
minutes: 3051 mins

15/16:
games: 25
goals: 7
assists: 9
minutes: 2003 mins

16/17:
games: 36
goals: 6
assists: 21
minutes: 2884 mins

Edited February 16, 20188 yr by opinionsarelike

LOL at KDB being pants. Was probably our best player against Hull, then unfairly thrown out of the team.

Anyways, thats the difference between Jose and pep, to be honest. He did not need Busquets to be an international, to replace Yaya, he just bloody did it depending on the player's calibre. Same with Messi.

He made a gamble with Oscar. Sold both Mata and KDB after freezing them out.

De Bruyne vs Hull is the new Oscar vs Juventus.

What's next? I vote Mikel vs Crystal Palace.

In the same way "hindsight" is the go-to excuse for people somehow trying to lie to themselves that we did not screw up and jose did the right job.

13 minutes ago, opinionsarelike said:

14/15 (full season with wolfsburg):
games: 34
goals: 10
assists: 21
minutes: 3051 mins

 

Irrelevant. He was pants didn't you know.

De Bruyne was about as pants for us as Pogba is for Manchester United at the moment. Fantastic players that was/is completely misused by their manager. One he tried to turn into a marathon runner and the other he is about to turn into a defensive midfielder.

 

Edited February 16, 20188 yr by Sindre