Davey Baby, you said it perfectly.  mourinho was such a cocksucker, he farked us royally.  May he rot in hell.

42 minutes ago, Davey Baby said:

 

I'll have to take your word about Mount and Sterling, but I agree about Ampadu and Hudson-Odoi. They are both clearly the real deal, in terms of potential. Whether they fulfil that potential remains to be seen. 

 

I agree about manager. I've said before we need a builder. Conte is already on his 8th job and he's been managing less than 12 years. Before we hired Jose for a second time I was an advocate of David Moyes. Perhaps not my finest moment although I couldn't see a whole range of alternatives. Jose came in, a manager incapable of staying at a club beyond three years, a manager uninterested in nurturing and developing youth. For me the principle remains the same. If we want to see Ampadu and Hudson-Odoi get significant minutes next season, as we do, then I agree with you, bring in the right kind of manager, a different kind of manager, one that relishes the challenge and the opportunity to work with so much talent rather than one that demands the finished article in every single position. Klopp is the one I really admire, more so than Pochettino. The thought of Luis Enrique just leaves me cold.

We should take a serious punt on Eddie Howe of Bournemouth, young, hungry, and got PL experience, and definitely a point to prove at a glamour club..

Edited February 17, 20188 yr by Ballack & Blu

24 minutes ago, Phillip said:

mourinho was such a cocksucker, he farked us royally.

Season 1 - Episodes 1-3 he did nothing much wrong and virtually everything right.

Season 2 - Episode 1-2 same as above.

Season 2 - Episdoe 3 he lost the plot and in the real world would of been sectioned under the mental health act.

11 hours ago, Davey Baby said:

 

He had a manager that wanted to straightjacket him, Spiller, a manager that would never dream of letting a young player make mistakes, or heaven forbid, play his natural game. De Bruyne knew what he was capable of, and he got out of there as fast as he could. He was clear and he was decisive and he's been proven correct. Shame our manager was so short-sighted.

Agree those were all negative Mourinho characteristics and certainly Kevin made the right call for him.

But reading back over the thread from then and it wasn't as clear cut to everyone at the time that he would be a world beater. In my view you've got an obligation to follow the managers instructions as much as you can. He wasn't deserving of special treatment. Hazard copped the same from Jose and became a better player because of it. 

The real mistake here was the clubs. He should have gone on loan (I know he didn't want to) but we should have insisted. If he had potential and wasnt getting along with Jose's style then it made no sense to sell given our manager merry go round. Same situation with Michy now. But of course this is all with hindsight.

Anywho surely Pedro must start against Barca. Massive point to prove against them I reckon. Same with Cesc.

Jose was always sh*te at finding and nurturing players. He only went for proven big name players and he had no patience.  If they didn't perform they were out the door without a proper chance and the next one brought in. He never turned any player into a world superstar.

Oh, hang on. 

Didier Drogba.

Edited February 17, 20188 yr by just

Oh hang on.

"The manager who probably changed my career was Jose Mourinho. I had fantastic managers. I had a fantastic time with Carlo Ancelotti, I was pretty more established at that point.

"But Jose Mourinho was the manager that came into my life and took me to another level. Not just tactically or in the football sense but in my mind and my own self-confidence. He made me believe that I could be a better player than what I was and I'll never forget that, my career changed from that point."

Frank Lampard.

Oh hang on.

From someone who actually knows what he is talking about.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-5403065/Joe-Cole-hails-Jose-Mourinho-master-motivator.html

 

Yeah. Mourinho. What a cocksucker.

Edited February 17, 20188 yr by just

@just

 

Lampard and Drogba were both 26 when Jose got hold of them. It's a different situation entirely. They were already special players but Jose undoubtedly worked wonders with them both and made them even more special. That was his first stint at the club when he was undoubtedly a far better manager. Those quotes from Cole concern Jose's motivational powers, which have never been in doubt, at least in the short term, long term they seem to lose their affect. I think those players from Jose's first stint speak in reverential tones about him but whether he had the patience you claim with players is a moot point. I remember Drogba in his first season, and he really wasn't as bad as some would claim. His goals-to-minutes was actually pretty good, although of course he missed a fair few games with injury. Drogba was Jose's big money signing that season, which suggests that Drogba was already pretty tasty, and that Jose was always likely to give him a chance.

 

2 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

In my view you've got an obligation to follow the managers instructions as much as you can. He wasn't deserving of special treatment. Hazard copped the same from Jose and became a better player because of it. 

The real mistake here was the clubs. He should have gone on loan (I know he didn't want to) but we should have insisted. If he had potential and wasnt getting along with Jose's style then it made no sense to sell given our manager merry go round. Same situation with Michy now. But of course this is all with hindsight.

 

I know where you're coming from but imagine it from KDB's position. He signs for Chelsea knowing he'll remain at Genk for a further 6 months, then discovers he's going on loan to Germany for a further year, which wasn't what he agreed to when he initially signed. Remember he was already a Belgian international, he had won trophies, and he must have fancied himself. He goes to Germany, he wins YPOTY, he's an unequivocal success. He's been patient, he eventually makes his debut for us, has a brilliant first half pulling the strings, popping up everywhere and carving Hull apart, then at half time his manager tells his team to make sure Hull don't score and get back in the game, instructing them to sit back and concede possession. KDB wins the MOTM award, his manager drops him for the next game because he doesn't think he defended well enough, and after that he barely featured. I'm not surprised KDB thought he was the wrong man for him, if indeed that's what he thought, as I suspect. Bottom line is he's been proven correct.

 

Regarding Hazard, he flourished under Jose that second season, but third season, Jose's sacking was the best thing that could have ever have happened to him. Jose was running him into the ground and had absolutely no idea how to manage him, in my opinion.

1 hour ago, Davey Baby said:

@just

 

Lampard and Drogba were both 26 when Jose got hold of them. It's a different situation entirely. They were already special players but Jose undoubtedly worked wonders with them both and made them even more special. That was his first stint at the club when he was undoubtedly a far better manager. Those quotes from Cole concern Jose's motivational powers, which have never been in doubt, at least in the short term, long term they seem to lose their affect. I think those players from Jose's first stint speak in reverential tones about him but whether he had the patience you claim with players is a moot point. I remember Drogba in his first season, and he really wasn't as bad as some would claim. His goals-to-minutes was actually pretty good, although of course he missed a fair few games with injury. Drogba was Jose's big money signing that season, which suggests that Drogba was already pretty tasty, and that Jose was always likely to give him a chance.

 

The point still stands Davey. Especially with Drogba.

I agree with you that Drogba was better than he was given credit for that 1st season. But we will definitely be in the minority there, and God knows that opinion was laughed at at the time. The press, the pundits and most of all the Chelsea fans on here, all were slating Drogba and saying we had brought a dud that had only had one good season in a poor league. Drogba himself has said that he seriously thought about giving up and returning to France. JM nurtured him. He was patient with him. He defended him. I'm pretty certain there would have been plenty of other managers who wouldn't have done. 

 

12 hours ago, Ballack & Blu said:

We should take a serious punt on Eddie Howe of Bournemouth, young, hungry, and got PL experience, and definitely a point to prove at a glamour club..

I really don't see the fascination with Eddie Howe. No doubt he's done a great job at Bournemouth, as has sean dyche at Burnley, but I'm not sure if either have done enough to warrant a job here. 

In all honesty, the only British manager with the credentials, ie plays attractive football, works well with young players, champions league expierience with a big club, is Brendan Rodgers. 

 

1 hour ago, big blue said:

In all honesty, the only British manager with the credentials, ie plays attractive football, works well with young players, champions league expierience with a big club, is Brendan Rodgers. 

 

Wrong thread mate:

 

On 2/17/2018 at 01:14, Davey Baby said:

At the risk of upsetting yorkley and having my entire post dismissed as just "stuff" and having him bare his arse* at me, I'll wage into the debate about KDB.

Only cutting this down a bit to save space

............some very nearly coherent scene-setting ...........................

So, a year and a half after signing, he finally gets his chance, and what a debut, man of the match in a resounding win, Sky giving him the award. I remember that game vividly. I had waited a long time to see him in a blue shirt and I was very excited to see him develop. It was clear he had massive potential. I also remember that game for another reason. We were 2-0 up at HT, playing some lovely free-flowing stuff and the second half promised to be fun, except, sadly, Jose had different ideas. "Fun" wasn't what Jose did. The football was clearly too free-flowing. The players were playing with a carefree abandon. At half-time he rectified it, and the second half turned into a non-event, but I'm sure Jose was happy with it, because the players were no longer ignoring his instructions.

And then came Swindon and the other games he played in.  You can't hang everything on a Man of the match performance for half a game.

...........................other stuff..................................

 

KDB got a few games after that, I'm not sure how many but not many, and then he was out, because he wasn't doing what Jose wanted him to do tactically, or maybe because he simply wasn't interested. I have a hunch (which is backed up by a reliable source) that KDB felt that Jose was too intent on making him a better defensive player, rather than a better offensive one. KDB wanted a little creative licence, a little freedom on the park, and in that sense it soon became apparent he had the wrong manager. KDB wasn't obeying his instructions to the letter and Jose lost patience, rather quickly, and took him out the side. KDB was given scant opportunities after that, the odd game here or there, but Jose felt this wasn't a player who hung on his every word and worshipped the ground he walked on, so he was sold. It was a pitiful lack of judgement, but KDB had got his judgement bang on.

And @Davey Baby you above all the other KdB-philes must see that this is my point.  Not that the lad isn't great now, just that he was not great THEN, and, if he had been he would have been able to play in the formation and tactics required of him by his manager. Messi would not get into a Sam Allardyce team because he is only 3foot 4inches tall and so no good at the hoof-ball game.

 

There are those that say he deserved to be sold, because he did nothing in a blue shirt. Laughable. He. Wasn't. Given. A. Chance. Same with Salah under Mourinho. Not. Given. A. Chance. A handful of games does not constitute a chance, especially when you're young and foreign, and especially when you're new to a big league and a big club, with all the pressure that brings. Some managers want to build, some want to nurture, some are only thinking of the short-term and go into a sulk when they can't have ready-made stars to fill every position. Jose was one of the latter. He wasn't interested if a player was going to be good tomorrow, and KDB had shown enough promise hitherto in his career to suggest he was going to be very good tomorrow, otherwise I don't think Wolfsburg were going to smash their transfer record for him. They knew something we didn't. They knew he was f**king good.

As in all things, chances, like respect and beer-tokens, aren't just given, they have to be earned.  From all of the reports of his attitude in training  at the time, and from performances on the pitch, KdB hadn't earned any more chances than he got.

Ulitmately, regardless of people's opinions of Mourinho or otherwise, wrong player ate the wrong time.  I posted above that Mourinho said specifically that Kdb wasn't picked because his performances weren't good enough at the time, and would be picked if they were.  Kdb then decided he wasn't ready to compete with the existing midfield so f**ked off, got better, the enraged the feeble-minded in here and elsewhere.

............................more cogent summary of a flawed premise.....................................

Actually, my opinion is moving a little after re-reading your stuff.  My complaint isn't that KdB was or wasn't sold, and not even really whether he was or wasn't any good while he was here, it is the rabid, revisionist bitch-whining spewing forth from some posters in here and elsewhere who sit in their pants in their mum's spare bedroom, getting all their opinions from what Sky and BT "pundits" tell them, believing every bullsh*t twitterer and Facebook "In The Know" tosser.  Look back at the KdB threads in here from that time. Not many were greatly complimentary about him and his performances. It's like the legendary Sex Pistols gig.  If the thousands who claim to have been there truly were, it would have been the biggest concert crowd in history.  

You may well have seen the top top player that KdB would become way back then, but the vast majority of those saying that they were are just lying.  Pure and simple.  

* It's a great arse. Let's make no bones about it.

and thank you kind sir, for noticing

 

Edited February 19, 20188 yr by yorkleyblue

Not that the lad isn't great now, just that he was not great THEN, and, if he had been he would have been able to play in the formation and tactics required of him by his manager. Messi would not get into a Sam Allardyce team because he is only 3foot 4inches tall and so no good at the hoof-ball game.

Alright so Lionel Messi wouldn't be a great player anymore if he by some turn of event was coached by Sam Allardyce and turned into a target-man to win headers? Surely if he was a great player he'd be able to play in the formation and tactics required by the manager.

Or would he just be terribly misused and his obvious talents squandered by the manager?

 

Edited February 19, 20188 yr by Sindre

It doesn't matter how you dress it up, or who is to blame, we held onto to Oscar and Fabregas, and allowed KDB to leave, now he's one of the very best players in the league, and probably the World, bad enough if it happens once, but then got rid of Salah for Pedro !

 

7 minutes ago, coco said:

but then got rid of Salah for Pedro !

 

Technically we got rid of Salah for Cuadradro. 

So basically we sold Mata for £38m to United and replaced him with Salah for £11m (£27m profit).

Then sent Salah on loan and bought in Cuadrado for £27m (breaking even). 

Then sent Cuadrado on loan and bought Pedro for £22m (£22m down).

Moral of the story? 

Should have kept Mata.  

1 hour ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Technically we got rid of Salah for Cuadradro. 

So basically we sold Mata for £38m to United and replaced him with Salah for £11m (£27m profit).

Then sent Salah on loan and bought in Cuadrado for £27m (breaking even). 

Then sent Cuadrado on loan and bought Pedro for £22m (£22m down).

Moral of the story? 

Should have kept Mata.  

I was successfully (till you came along) trying to forget the bit between Salah and Pedro.

 

@yorkleyblue

 

I see it differently to you. Yes he had a bad game at Swindon. He had 9 appearances for us in all competitions, I know this because I've just looked it up on wiki. I dare say some of those appearances were in the form of substitute appearances, or if not, I dare say he was brought off in some of them, so that 9 appearances may equate, roughly to about 5 full games. I don't know I'm guessing. Either way for a 21 year old kid, in a new league, in a tough league, it's a pitiful amount of minutes, way too few to make a fair assessment.

 

Yes he played badly at Swindon. Are we casting him aside on the basis of one bad game, or two, or five even? That's ridiculous, if you don't mind me saying.

 

Now, you and me are mug punters, but the manager is paid millions for his judgement, and he simply made the wrong call, there's no other way to dress this up. Mourinho royally f**ked up. All these posters you speak of, on the KDB thread, their opinion is irrelevant. Every single new arrival will have his performances analysed on these boards after every game. It happens with Zappacosta, with Bakayoko, with Giroud, with Palmieri the other night, as soon as they've played the sages on these boards proffer their opinion. That's what being a fan is all about. I'm sure you're right, KDB played at Swindon and everybody was slating him, so what? That doesn't mean the manager ditches him, does it? The manager is supposed to know a thing or two about the game, the manager is supposed to be able to spot talent, the manager is supposed to develop players, the manager is supposed to man-manage, the manager is supposed to get the best out of them, the manager is supposed to allow a young player the odd bad game. On every single front the manager failed. It was his call, and he made the wrong one. He's made some good calls in his career. This will possibly go down as his worst.

 

If he had Messi in his ranks, and he asks Messi to track the full-back, or to help his teammate double-up on an opponent, or to man-mark someone, or simply to sit back and cover a certain space when the opposition are in possession, and Messi fails to obey his orders to the letter, what should he do? Should he banish Messi? Should he sell him? Now I know Messi is a unique talent but the principle remains the same. De Bruyne was a very talented player when we signed him, a very decorated player, and a full international. By the time he joined us he'd won YPOTY in Germany, so he was talented. Despite his paltry 9 appearances for us in which he was sh*t allegedly Woflsburg were still prepared to smash their transfer record for him, so he was talented. This was a talented boy. We saw it in that game against Hull, before Mourinho got into him. Before Mourinho dropped him inexplicably for the next game and decided he needed to adapt more to his methods. Well that went well.

 

Mourinho was too quick, or he demanded the wrong things from the player, because he didn't really appreciate what he had, or he didn't know how to untap it, or he simply wasn't prepared to be patient, or he simply was too rigid. Either way it's not a case of KDB deserving to be sold because he failed to produce in a blue shirt, it's a case of the manager getting it badly wrong and refusing to give the boy a chance. That's my opinion.

 

Now yorkley, I think it's bare bum time. Please don't leave your hordes of admirers hanging on any longer.

On 2/17/2018 at 23:02, just said:

Oh hang on.

From someone who actually knows what he is talking about.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-5403065/Joe-Cole-hails-Jose-Mourinho-master-motivator.html

 

Yeah. Mourinho. What a cocksucker.

Pre Real Madrid Mourinho is a very very different manager to post Real Madrid Mourinho. One was loveable, the other a massive nob. These players will sing his praises because he was undoubtedly the best manager in the world back then (along with Fergie).

10 hours ago, Davey Baby said:

Another fine, if a bit long-winded analysis of the situation as you see it.  Only not quoted in full because of length.  You know what you said.

Right, this truly will be my last contribution to this debate.  DeBruyne was wrong, for the team, at the time.  Did nothing to justify displacing Lampard, Mata, Matic, Hazard or even Schurrle.  Given the way that  the team played, and the requirements of the manager's tactics, he did nothing to displace Oscar either.

Mourinho said, explicitly, if he deserved to play, he would play (see quotes in my post above).  The lad decided that he was not willing to stay and fight for a place, so opted for a transfer.  Then he got good, came back to a rival and now looks like a world-beater. That's not my issue.  My issue is with disingenuous bullsh*t from most posters who claim they knew even then that he would reach these heights and not be another Kakuta or McCreachan.  You make some interesting points regarding the failings you perceive in Chelsea's most successful manager of all time, and you are perfectly entitled to those views, some of which I share.  However, abusing the man for making this decision, which, with 100% hindsight appears to have been a bad one, is low, even for you @Davey Baby.  Selling a player who was, AT THE TIME, inferior to the first team players in his position, who was frequently reported as being poor in training and attitude and who was not willing to stay and develop into a player capable of dislodging top midfielder in a top team made perfect sense to me at the time, and makes perfect sense to me now.

You have looked at the threads about DeBruyne in this very forum at the time.  What percentage of the posts then were screaming that this was a world-beater? (other than the Genk guy, obviously).  Don't bother actually asking, it was piss-few.  You said we are mug-punters who just have opinions, so I'll take the word of someone who was there, who has no particular axe to grind and who actually knows something about the inner workings of Chelsea.  John Terry.  

Despite their respective incredible upturns since leaving Chelsea, former Blues captain Terry believes there should be no regrets at Stamford Bridge. ‘Not really, because at the time they didn’t make our team stronger,’ he told Sky Sports when asked if they should regret selling them. ‘Let’s not forget we were one of the best teams probably the Premier League has ever seen, in them early days when they arrived. ‘So they was coming into one of the best sides which was even more difficult. ‘When they come in can they make a big enough impact to sustain and keep their place? No, it’s very difficult to do.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/18/john-terry-no-regrets-chelsea-sold-kevin-de-bruyne-romelu-lukaku-mohamed-salah-7169940/?ito=cbshare

(ignore the atrocious grammar)

So, in summary, those of you who say that back then you knew that De Bruyne would become what he has are either lying or suffering from false-memory syndrome delusions.

Where is McCreachan now?

"Did nothing to justify displacing Lampard, Mata, Matic, Hazard or even Schurrle."

Well, thats the point of the whole thing. He DID NOT get an oppurtunity to displace any of the above mentioned players, else he would definitely have.  

You come of pretty desperate when you resort to comparing De Bruyne to Kakuta and McEachran. De Bruyne was one of the best players in Bundesliga and one of the best players for his country during the World-Cup qualifiers at the time.

Mourinho is horrible at nurturing younger players. Let's just accept it. He fecked it up with De Bruyne an multiple others.
He even said this himself "‘My conscience tells me that if, for example, Baker, Brown, and Solanke are not national team players in a few years, I should blame myself,’

Needless to say that no of them ever got a proper chance under Mourinho. 

Whilst I didn't expect KDB to be become world class this quickly, it was clear to see that he had the ability to go a long way and I guess I was one of the small percentages because I stated as much in the KDB thread.

McEachran was a youth team player with nothing to base his performances on other than what he had done in the youth team and a few games for our first team. Who knew what he could have achieved.

KdB on the other hand had been one of the best players in two different leagues the previous two seasons. Its not like he just got good after leaving us. He was great before playing for Chelsea with bags of potential and Belgium's crown jewel after Eden. 

https://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/scout-found-kevin-de-bruyne-chelsea-told-abramovich-worth-e90m-quotes/

Lets look at someone that has a full time job in scouting talent and not just some random blokes on a forum. De Visser said back in 2012 that KdB would be a world beater and worth £90m in the future. Good job we listened to Mourinho who has no history in helping young talent instead of a bloke who's entire life has been dedicated to it. 

2 hours ago, yorkleyblue said:

Right, this truly will be my last contribution to this debate.  DeBruyne was wrong, for the team, at the time.  Did nothing to justify displacing Lampard, Mata, Matic, Hazard or even Schurrle.  Given the way that  the team played, and the requirements of the manager's tactics, he did nothing to displace Oscar either.

Mourinho said, explicitly, if he deserved to play, he would play (see quotes in my post above).  The lad decided that he was not willing to stay and fight for a place, so opted for a transfer.  Then he got good, came back to a rival and now looks like a world-beater. That's not my issue.  My issue is with disingenuous bullsh*t from most posters who claim they knew even then that he would reach these heights and not be another Kakuta or McCreachan.  You make some interesting points regarding the failings you perceive in Chelsea's most successful manager of all time, and you are perfectly entitled to those views, some of which I share.  However, abusing the man for making this decision, which, with 100% hindsight appears to have been a bad one, is low, even for you @Davey Baby.  Selling a player who was, AT THE TIME, inferior to the first team players in his position, who was frequently reported as being poor in training and attitude and who was not willing to stay and develop into a player capable of dislodging top midfielder in a top team made perfect sense to me at the time, and makes perfect sense to me now.

You have looked at the threads about DeBruyne in this very forum at the time.  What percentage of the posts then were screaming that this was a world-beater? (other than the Genk guy, obviously).  Don't bother actually asking, it was piss-few.  You said we are mug-punters who just have opinions, so I'll take the word of someone who was there, who has no particular axe to grind and who actually knows something about the inner workings of Chelsea.  John Terry.  

Despite their respective incredible upturns since leaving Chelsea, former Blues captain Terry believes there should be no regrets at Stamford Bridge. ‘Not really, because at the time they didn’t make our team stronger,’ he told Sky Sports when asked if they should regret selling them. ‘Let’s not forget we were one of the best teams probably the Premier League has ever seen, in them early days when they arrived. ‘So they was coming into one of the best sides which was even more difficult. ‘When they come in can they make a big enough impact to sustain and keep their place? No, it’s very difficult to do.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/18/john-terry-no-regrets-chelsea-sold-kevin-de-bruyne-romelu-lukaku-mohamed-salah-7169940/?ito=cbshare

(ignore the atrocious grammar)

So, in summary, those of you who say that back then you knew that De Bruyne would become what he has are either lying or suffering from false-memory syndrome delusions.

Where is McCreachan now?

I love JT but he is talking complete BS there, KDB started playing in 2013, was Salah and Lukaku around 2014, one of the best sides the PL has ever seen, it wouldn’t even be half the side from 2005