Super Frank Lampard

[Slojo]

8 hours ago, wizardous said:

I see a lot of comparisons to AVB who was sacked in the middle of a 'rebuild'.

Don't forget AVB had Cech, Terry, Lampard, Drogba, Cole etc. Not in their primes but still one of the very best in the world in their positions. We all know what happened later in the season.

At this moment, to be honest, Lampard doesn't have a single player who is even close to that level. Not a single one. And he is still very close to top 4 with this team that is young and full of potential in every position.

That is the main difference.

 

All those players bar Terry were past their primes, we saw that the season before with Carlo. 

Lampard on paper has far better quality, AVB had to play Sturridge on the wing because we had no wingers besides Kalou and Malouda. If you're telling me you would take that AVB team over this current team you're mental. There's a reason we spent hundreds of millions the season after on new players. 

[Bob stark]

3 hours ago, Argo said:

That's the thing, they ain't. Our fullbacks are levels above their's especially on offense, Thiago Silva sh*ts on any of their centre half's, apart from Pogba our CM/pivot options are better, Werner and Ziyech outperformed Martial and Bruno respectively at their previous clubs, Pulisic is better than Rashford, Mount is better than VDB, Hudson Odoi is more naturally gifted than Greenwood (although the latter is a better finisher) and I'd probably say Mendy is better than this current version of DDG aswell (who is struggling to see off Kepa's competition in the Spanish side).

Apart from Pogba and maybe Cavani there's no player in that United squad I look at and think we can't raise a better or atleast equal equivalent. I mean how far are we going to go to reduce expectations? Are we a few more bad results from saying West Ham have better players?

On paper you can kinda argue that man to man we are kinda equal to United. But although united is not exactly a coherent team (bruno + pogba combo is a bit too direct), we are worse. 

 

[abramovich]

45 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

On paper you can kinda argue that man to man we are kinda equal to United. But although united is not exactly a coherent team (bruno + pogba combo is a bit too direct), we are worse. 

 

We're certainly not worse than United in terms of the overall quality of the squad. The difference is, at the moment they look like a well organized team where players know their roles and seem well-drilled plus their midfield with Bruno and Pogba is actually very effective. They're not great to watch, but you can't argue with the results.

It wasn't long ago when we had our unbeaten streak people were talking about a title challenge and going deep in the CL. Now suddenly our squad isn't good enough. What's really bothering me is that with the exception of Mount, everybody else's form seems to have gone backwards.

[JM7]

It’s almost been 2 different jobs for Frank with last season.  He has largely fixed the defence, credit to him. 
 

Tge other issues are goals have dried up, no creativity and important players not scoring/assisting. 

[Sexyfootball]

What strange times .... now we've actually got a decent article on the BBC web site LOL

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55678897

She makes some good points, and has done well to find some stats that show "improvement" 🙂

[Bob stark]

28 minutes ago, abramovich said:

We're certainly not worse than United in terms of the overall quality of the squad. The difference is, at the moment they look like a well organized team where players know their roles and seem well-drilled plus their midfield with Bruno and Pogba is actually very effective. They're not great to watch, but you can't argue with the results.

It wasn't long ago when we had our unbeaten streak people were talking about a title challenge and going deep in the CL. Now suddenly our squad isn't good enough. What's really bothering me is that with the exception of Mount, everybody else's form seems to have gone backwards.

The hardest part for our team is we have many very2 good player but no wc player. United is built for bruno, pool for mane n salah, city used to be for silva n kdb.

We on the other hand are a bit all over the place. No best combination, no clear star. I honestly thought it will be advantage, turn out it is the other way around. A long time ago we had the same problem with mata, salah, kdb, hazard, Oscar. Now, I kinda understand why Mou did what he did. 

 

[Slojo]

45 minutes ago, abramovich said:

We're certainly not worse than United in terms of the overall quality of the squad. The difference is, at the moment they look like a well organized team where players know their roles and seem well-drilled plus their midfield with Bruno and Pogba is actually very effective. They're not great to watch, but you can't argue with the results.

It wasn't long ago when we had our unbeaten streak people were talking about a title challenge and going deep in the CL. Now suddenly our squad isn't good enough. What's really bothering me is that with the exception of Mount, everybody else's form seems to have gone backwards.

I've noticed that people are severely underrating the talent in this team lately. 

Werner, Havertz and Ziyech had the best stats in Europe and were top targets, neither are performing to top standard though. You can't just boil that down to a lack of quality can you? 

[wizardous]

6 hours ago, Slojo said:

All those players bar Terry were past their primes, we saw that the season before with Carlo. 

Lampard on paper has far better quality, AVB had to play Sturridge on the wing because we had no wingers besides Kalou and Malouda. If you're telling me you would take that AVB team over this current team you're mental. There's a reason we spent hundreds of millions the season after on new players. 

What I wanted to say is that they were experienced players at the time. They knew how to win trophies and their character and leadership were crucial to winning the CL. This team still can't fight for trophies mainly because it lacks experience.

Nobody doubts talent, but talent without experience won't get you trophies.

And even at that age and past their primes, there isn't a player in this squad who is at that level right now.

Edited January 19, 2021 by wizardous

[Osgoodwasgood]

1 hour ago, Bob stark said:

The hardest part for our team is we have many very2 good player but no wc player. United is built for bruno, pool for mane n salah, city used to be for silva n kdb.

We on the other hand are a bit all over the place. No best combination, no clear star. I honestly thought it will be advantage, turn out it is the other way around. A long time ago we had the same problem with mata, salah, kdb, hazard, Oscar. Now, I kinda understand why Mou did what he did. 

 

I appreciate that its hard for supporters to identify the style of play Frank is trying to adopt, 4-3-3 with two number 8's, often in the past 6-8 games ive thought to myself where is the main focus of our play? Too many passes along the back line, out to the full backs and back again, all very tedious and very little progress made up the pitch.

I believe we have the players to play the way he wants, but only in the top half, the defensive third is the problem. 

We don't have a player that can alternate his range of passing from the centre of defence, Silva occasionally, but Zouma, Rudi, Christensen can only play it sideways. In my opinion we missed a trick with John Stones when he was out of the team at City, we were sniffing around him for silly money when he was at Everton, we could perhaps of picked him up fairly cheap but his resurgence in form has put paid to that, he would have been ideal, 20-25 yard passing between the lines and suddenly we've gone from pissing about with it at the back to our dangerous players picking it up in the final third before the opposition can reshape.

In addition, our fulcrum player in this formation, which is currently, Kante, Billy, Kovacic or Giorginho, needs to be someone like Alcantara, Niguez or Milinkovic-Savic, players who fizz the ball about, our build up play from these areas is all too stop-start and too many unforced errors in the passing.

This in my opinion is why it seems to many that Frank has no plan, and hence why many are on his back, unfortunately unless one of our current players can adapt I cant see us improving enough to appease the majority of supporters.

[wizardous]

7 hours ago, Argo said:

That's the thing, they ain't. Our fullbacks are levels above their's especially on offense, Thiago Silva sh*ts on any of their centre half's, apart from Pogba our CM/pivot options are better, Werner and Ziyech outperformed Martial and Bruno respectively at their previous clubs, Pulisic is better than Rashford, Mount is better than VDB, Hudson Odoi is more naturally gifted than Greenwood (although the latter is a better finisher) and I'd probably say Mendy is better than this current version of DDG aswell (who is struggling to see off Kepa's competition in the Spanish side).

Apart from Pogba and maybe Cavani there's no player in that United squad I look at and think we can't raise a better or atleast equal equivalent. I mean how far are we going to go to reduce expectations? Are we a few more bad results from saying West Ham have better players?

Let's be realistic.

Sorry but this Martial/Bruno, Werner/Ziyech comparison doesn't work simply because Martial came to England as a teenager who was at the time one of the most exciting prospects, and he won the Golden Boy award. He has played only one proper season for Monaco while Werner has played four for Leipzig.

Ziyech and Bruno aren't playing in the same position. Also Bruno's goalscoring record in Portugal was amazing. Not to mention he is probably the best player in the league at the moment.

As for fullbacks, offensively we are certainly better but defensively I don't think so. Pulisic and Rashford are kind of same level.

Yes Mount is better than VdB, but VdB doesn't even play at United...

Edited January 19, 2021 by wizardous

[Slojo]

4 minutes ago, wizardous said:

Let's be realistic.

Sorry but this Martial/Bruno, Werner/Ziyech comparison doesn't work simply because Martial came to England as a teenager who was at the time one of the most exciting prospects, and he won the Golden Boy award. He has played only one proper season for Monaco while Werner has played four for Leipzig.

Ziyech and Bruno aren't playing in the same position. Also Bruno's goalscoring record in Portugal was amazing. Not to mention he is probably the best player in the league at the moment.

As for fullbacks, offensively we are certainly better but defensively I don't think so. Pulisic and Rashford are kind of same level.

Bruno best player in the league? Come off it, you're purposefully overrating United and underrating us. 

[wizardous]

6 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Bruno best player in the league? Come off it, you're purposefully overrating United and underrating us. 

Well at this moment nobody is making such an impact. He is essential to their attack and everything goes through him.

Who do you think is better at the moment?

[Imran_CFC]

2 hours ago, Slojo said:

I've noticed that people are severely underrating the talent in this team lately. 

Werner, Havertz and Ziyech had the best stats in Europe and were top targets, neither are performing to top standard though. You can't just boil that down to a lack of quality can you? 

I think from a talent perspective we are at a similar level to United, would I swap our squad for theirs-Certainly not.

The only difference between us and them currently is they've got a squad which have been together for a few years now and our squad is still relatively fresh. They've brought in 3 players the previous window and all are currently fulfilling squad roles with Cavani the only one who I think will break into the starting 11 before the end of the season. None of them started the game against Liverpool therefore the 11 who started have played together for a couple of years.

We had 4 players start against Fulham who came in the summer and we didn't even start Kai and Werner, it's no real surprise we seem a lot more disjointed then United currently. 

[Slojo]

5 minutes ago, Imran_CFC said:

I think from a talent perspective we are at a similar level to United, would I swap our squad for theirs-Certainly not.

The only difference between us and them currently is they've got a squad which have been together for a few years now and our squad is still relatively fresh. They've brought in 3 players the previous window and all are currently fulfilling squad roles with Cavani the only one who I think will break into the starting 11 before the end of the season. None of them started the game against Liverpool therefore the 11 who started have played together for a couple of years.

We had 4 players start against Fulham who came in the summer and we didn't even start Kai and Werner, it's no real surprise we seem a lot more disjointed then United currently. 

That's a better answer that I can at least agree with, but we should be doing better than we are, much better. 

But I'm not having this narrative that United are prime Barcelona compared to us, it's absolute bollocks. On paper we have some great quality.

[Slojo]

30 minutes ago, wizardous said:

Well at this moment nobody is making such an impact. He is essential to their attack and everything goes through him.

Who do you think is better at the moment?

Even in KDB's worst season to date he's way ahead of Bruno. 

You're completely overrating United.

[evissy]

https://twitter.com/SiPhillipsSport/status/1351472092768776192?s=19

[Imran_CFC]

3 minutes ago, Slojo said:

That's a better answer that I can at least agree with, but we should be doing better than we are, much better. 

But I'm not having this narrative that United are prime Barcelona compared to us, it's absolute bollocks. On paper we have some great quality.

I watch United quite a lot due to my family and I think the points gap between us is slightly exaggerated, they were far worse then us at the start of the season then we have been at any stage during our poor run. They've had quite a bit of fortune in games such as Brighton, West Brom, West Ham & Aston Villa and out of all those games I would say the Villa game they played well and deserved the win.

Recently they have started to play well which has masked the shortcomings at the start of the season but a few games this season they have been truly abysmal.  

[wizardous]

20 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Even in KDB's worst season to date he's way ahead of Bruno. 

You're completely overrating United.

KdB hasn't scored from open play this season until City played us.

We all want Chelsea to be the best but we can't be deluded. Just look at the table, that is the reality of this moment. And the table is the only thing that matters. United are first and we are closer to Leeds and Palace when looking at points. There is a reason behind that.

Also you are jumping to the wrong conclusion. I never said United were 'prime Barcelona' when compared to us, but their squad is slightly better than ours right now.

Edited January 19, 2021 by wizardous

[Bob stark]

26 minutes ago, Imran_CFC said:

I think from a talent perspective we are at a similar level to United, would I swap our squad for theirs-Certainly not.

The only difference between us and them currently is they've got a squad which have been together for a few years now and our squad is still relatively fresh. They've brought in 3 players the previous window and all are currently fulfilling squad roles with Cavani the only one who I think will break into the starting 11 before the end of the season. None of them started the game against Liverpool therefore the 11 who started have played together for a couple of years.

We had 4 players start against Fulham who came in the summer and we didn't even start Kai and Werner, it's no real surprise we seem a lot more disjointed then United currently. 

I am not sure our problem is just time. The profile of player that we signed is a bit disjointed. 

I am curious what people think our best 11 are. 

[abramovich]

1 minute ago, evissy said:

https://twitter.com/SiPhillipsSport/status/1351472092768776192?s=19

 

Wow, what a fantastic piece of breaking news from Mr. Philips. In other news, football teams are allowed to field 11 players each and the game ends with a whistle from a referee.

[Slojo]

8 minutes ago, wizardous said:

KdB hasn't scored from open play this season until City played us.

We all want Chelsea to be the best but we can't be deluded. Just look at the table, and that is the reality of this moment. United are first and we are closer to Leeds and Palace when looking at points.

Also you are jumping to the wrong conclusion. I never said United were 'prime Barcelona' when compared to us, but their squad is slightly better than ours right now.

No sorry you're right. United are the best team in the league by far, we definitely should be midtable for the quality we have. Your average midtable side spends 200 million, I mean the league table doesn't lie right? 

And yeah Bruno who scores a penalty a game is the best player in the league after just being here a year.

[Osgoodwasgood]

5 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

I am not sure our problem is just time. The profile of player that we signed is a bit disjointed. 

I am curious what people think our best 11 are. 

im presuming you're asking if all players are playing with confidence, If so I consider our best starting eleven to be;

4-3-3

 

Mendy

James         Silva       Zouma        Chilwell

Mount           Kante          Havertz

Pulisic          Werner         CHO

[Bob stark]

10 minutes ago, Osgoodwasgood said:

im presuming you're asking if all players are playing with confidence, If so I consider our best starting eleven to be;

4-3-3

 

Mendy

James         Silva       Zouma        Chilwell

Mount           Kante          Havertz

Pulisic          Werner         CHO

Werner simply can't play as lone striker. It got to be tammy or Giroud. That is safe to say now.

Midfield wise, it is between Havertz vs Kova, I am honestly not sure, you can argue kova is better in midfield 3 than Havertz right now. For rw you can argue for Ziyech but CHO has recently proven that maybe he should start more games. 

It is crazy that after 150 m transfer, you can make strong argument that

Puli - tammy - cho

Kova - Mount 

Kante

Are our best lineup. 

 

[wizardous]

28 minutes ago, Slojo said:

No sorry you're right. United are the best team in the league by far, we definitely should be midtable for the quality we have. Your average midtable side spends 200 million, I mean the league table doesn't lie right? 

And yeah Bruno who scores a penalty a game is the best player in the league after just being here a year.

Misinterpreting my post once again.

Do you judge a player's quality by money that was paid for him? Football is not about that. If it was Leicester would have never won the league. Remember some of our most expensive signings? Torres, Morata, Kepa, Shevchenko...

Just to be clear, Liverpool and City are a level above any other team in the league but United were the best in the last couple of months, precisely since that defeat to Spurs, and the table shows it. Still think that either Liverpool/City will win the league but in a season like this anything is possible.

To think Bruno is a penalty merchant means you haven't actually watched any United games this season. It seems that your opinion is based on statistics only.

[Osgoodwasgood]

2 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Werner simply can't play as lone striker. It got to be tammy or Giroud. That is safe to say now.

Midfield wise, it is between Havertz vs Kova, I am honestly not sure, you can argue kova is better in midfield 3 than Havertz right now. For rw you can argue for Ziyech but CHO has recently proven that maybe he should start more games. 

It is crazy that after 150 m transfer, you can make strong argument that

Puli - tammy - cho

Kova - Mount 

Kante

Are our best lineup. 

 

Forget Kovacic, not good enough, Werner hasn't become a bad player overnight, ive seen better strikers than him have more of a baron run than he's currently having, you can see he's devoid of confidence and cant buy a goal at present, but he'll be fine.

My only difficulty is Ziyech, wonderful player, but doesn't track back, but when he's on his game he unlocks defences, id possibly select him as an alterative and something different to either CHO, or Pulisic