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Lionel Messi to Chelsea?


TomCFC85

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1 hour ago, kiwi1691 said:

The underwear model wishes he was half the footballer Messi is. 

I understand that casual football fans fans like yourself like the CR7 is he scores a lot of goals, but that is all he does. 

Messi, is an elite goalscorer, passer, dribbler, creater, if R9 had not been blighted by injures he probably have become the GOAT. To even compare Messi to CR7 is just plain insulting to Messi. 

 

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Casual football fan.......ok then. 

Messi is amazing, but for me Ronaldo moved out of his comfort zone and proved himself across the best leagues in the world.

Messi was in the best ever Barca XI for the majority of the time, but if you look at his international career it is a totally different story. Ronaldo also evolved into a more striker type player, but in his earlier days for Utd and Madrid his dribbling and take ons were superb, it isn't just about his goals.

Both are GOATs though.

Edited by Malcolm9
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Both are the greatest players I have ever witnessed. To discredit someone because ‘all they’re good at is scoring goals’ is idiotic. Goals win games. 
 

Ronaldo has a specific determination to be the best and is willing to prove this in any league. He also is far more successful for Portugal and will likely hold the all time international record for goals scored for their nation. 

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3 hours ago, dkw said:

I've always thought Messi is the better player, more skillful etc but I have always felt I would prefer Ronaldo in my team as he brings more to a side. 

I agree. Messi is a better playmaker and flair player. 
 

Ronaldo is more influential and more likely to turn up on big games. Ronaldo has far more bottle than Messi could ever dream of. 

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On 05/09/2020 at 16:52, Gol15 said:

Ronaldo is easy the best European player of all time, Messi on the other hand is still behind Maradona, now what is harder to achive is debatable.

I rate Zidane and Cruyff higher than CR7 and Messi is superior to Maradona

Edited by driller97
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4 minutes ago, driller97 said:

I rate Zidane and Cruyff higher than CR7 and Messi is superior to Maradona

Well if you see just how individually Ronaldo has been compared to Zidane and Cruyff, the only argument for Zidane would be the World Cup 1998 but Portugal as a smaller nation never won anything in their history before Ronaldo came along and now they won the Nations League and one Euro, both of those being almost as strong as the World Cup if we consider that in recent history most semi-finalists of the World Cup had been only European teams. When it comes to the comparison with Cruyff I just don't see any argument that would go against Ronaldo that has been at the top of the top for so many years.

Messi is not a leader like Maradona and failing to win anything big with Argentina makes the gap between them for me.

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1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

Well if you see just how individually Ronaldo has been compared to Zidane and Cruyff, the only argument for Zidane would be the World Cup 1998 but Portugal as a smaller nation never won anything in their history before Ronaldo came along and now they won the Nations League and one Euro, both of those being almost as strong as the World Cup if we consider that in recent history most semi-finalists of the World Cup had been only European teams. When it comes to the comparison with Cruyff I just don't see any argument that would go against Ronaldo that has been at the top of the top for so many years.

Messi is not a leader like Maradona and failing to win anything big with Argentina makes the gap between them for me.

When I compare them, I just look at what they do on the pitch as the main thing.

If you look at the way Zidane and Cruyff ran games and made the game look beautiful, then you look at CR7 and he's more of just a poacher who hangs around the goal to score tap ins, especially in recent years.

Ronaldo in his prime (early-mid years of real madrid) when he used to dribble past players and score insane longshot goals, I rate him on par with the likes of Zidane and Cruyff, but overall I still rate these 2 higher.

Its a bit insulting to call Ronaldo the best ever when people just look at his goal stats, where the majority are from him camping int he box and scoring tap ins lol.

 

This is getting a bit off topic, but the top tier of players (in no particular order) would be Messi, Zidane, R9, Cruyff, CR7, Maradona, Garrincha, Beckenbaur, Maldini

Tier below would have players like Van Basten, Muller, Puskas, Di Stefano etc etc..

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2 minutes ago, driller97 said:

When I compare them, I just look at what they do on the pitch as the main thing.

If you look at the way Zidane and Cruyff ran games and made the game look beautiful, then you look at CR7 and he's more of just a poacher who hangs around the goal to score tap ins, especially in recent years.

Ronaldo in his prime (early-mid years of real madrid) when he used to dribble past players and score insane longshot goals, I rate him on par with the likes of Zidane and Cruyff, but overall I still rate these 2 higher.

Its a bit insulting to call Ronaldo the best ever when people just look at his goal stats, where the majority are from him camping int he box and scoring tap ins lol.

 

This is getting a bit off topic, but the top tier of players (in no particular order) would be Messi, Zidane, R9, Cruyff, CR7, Maradona, Garrincha, Beckenbaur, Maldini

Tier below would have players like Van Basten, Muller, Puskas, Di Stefano etc etc..

Think you'll fine Pele had a bit more going for him than just erectile difficulties.

Edited by WhiteWall
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6 minutes ago, driller97 said:

When I compare them, I just look at what they do on the pitch as the main thing.

If you look at the way Zidane and Cruyff ran games and made the game look beautiful, then you look at CR7 and he's more of just a poacher who hangs around the goal to score tap ins, especially in recent years.

Ronaldo in his prime (early-mid years of real madrid) when he used to dribble past players and score insane longshot goals, I rate him on par with the likes of Zidane and Cruyff, but overall I still rate these 2 higher.

Its a bit insulting to call Ronaldo the best ever when people just look at his goal stats, where the majority are from him camping int he box and scoring tap ins lol.

 

This is getting a bit off topic, but the top tier of players (in no particular order) would be Messi, Zidane, R9, Cruyff, CR7, Maradona, Garrincha, Beckenbaur, Maldini

Tier below would have players like Van Basten, Muller, Puskas, Di Stefano etc etc..

Well to be fair scoring goals is the whole point in the game and Ronaldo has been amazing for such a long time and even managed to adapt his game in order to win. He has scored the most goals and has made the most assists in the history of the CL/European Cup.

In Man United he won the Golden Ball and Golden Boot, he's their first one to win all that since their very own George Best.

He became the top scorer in Real Madrid's history and that's not a small feat considering how many great players they had and with him as the captain Portugal won the Euro and the Nations League, for the first time in their history. 

Ronaldo has a lot of records that speak for him, his influence and attitude is far greater than just scoring tap-ins but at the end of the day Tony Kroos said that someone needs to score goals for Real Madrid and without Ronaldo Real Madrid would never win 3 CL titles in a row, I mean look at this way, nobody managed to win the CL back-to-back since the competitions has that name and Ronaldo won it 3 times in a row, majority of his goals in Europe he scored at the knockout stages.

This is why it's very easy for me to say that he can be considered as the best European ever, his whole career speaks for him in that direction. When it comes to the best ever overall, I still consider Pele to be the very best because he invented 90% of the moves that players still use today, he was at least 20 years ahead of his time and considering just how much he was fouled I think that with modern care and medicine he would have been just unplayable in this era where the stars are protected much more.

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8 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Well to be fair scoring goals is the whole point in the game and Ronaldo has been amazing for such a long time and even managed to adapt his game in order to win. He has scored the most goals and has made the most assists in the history of the CL/European Cup.

In Man United he won the Golden Ball and Golden Boot, he's their first one to win all that since their very own George Best.

He became the top scorer in Real Madrid's history and that's not a small feat considering how many great players they had and with him as the captain Portugal won the Euro and the Nations League, for the first time in their history. 

Ronaldo has a lot of records that speak for him, his influence and attitude is far greater than just scoring tap-ins but at the end of the day Tony Kroos said that someone needs to score goals for Real Madrid and without Ronaldo Real Madrid would never win 3 CL titles in a row, I mean look at this way, nobody managed to win the CL back-to-back since the competitions has that name and Ronaldo won it 3 times in a row, majority of his goals in Europe he scored at the knockout stages.

This is why it's very easy for me to say that he can be considered as the best European ever, his whole career speaks for him in that direction. When it comes to the best ever overall, I still consider Pele to be the very best because he invented 90% of the moves that players still use today, he was at least 20 years ahead of his time and considering just how much he was fouled I think that with modern care and medicine he would have been just unplayable in this era where the stars are protected much more.

Thats true, but its not just about scoring goals (especially easy tap ins)

im not saying I dont rate CR7 as one of the best ever, because he easily is. I just rate a couple other players higher than him. He's easily top 10, and probably top 5 of all time. Also that real madrid team could have quite comfortably done just as well in the CL as it was Bale who showed up in the big games and Kroos and Modric in their prime were ridiculous in midfield.

Pele is overrated as hell though, I visited Brazil quite a few years ago and spoke to some of the locals there about football and its pretty common to come across people there who rate Garrincha as the greatest brazilian of all time and not Pele. A lot of people thought Pele was overrated and his personality and being on coloured TV first just made him get the plaudits that he did, whereas Garrincha went under the radar for his life outside of football.

 

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3 minutes ago, driller97 said:

Thats true, but its not just about scoring goals (especially easy tap ins)

im not saying I dont rate CR7 as one of the best ever, because he easily is. I just rate a couple other players higher than him. He's easily top 10, and probably top 5 of all time. Also that real madrid team could have quite comfortably done just as well in the CL as it was Bale who showed up in the big games and Kroos and Modric in their prime were ridiculous in midfield.

Pele is overrated as hell though, I visited Brazil quite a few years ago and spoke to some of the locals there about football and its pretty common to come across people there who rate Garrincha as the greatest brazilian of all time and not Pele. A lot of people thought Pele was overrated and his personality and being on coloured TV first just made him get the plaudits that he did, whereas Garrincha went under the radar for his life outside of football.

 

Well it's all a matter of a personal view, I saw many videos of Pele and I totally understand why people thought he was the best, when he played European teams he was unstoppable both at the club and national level and those were the days when it was some the hardest defenses, the Brazilian players that were stars in Italy (Jair da Costa, Amarildo and so on) were bench players for Brazil and when Pele played against Serie A teams he dominated.

For example Benfica was the multiple winner of the European Cup those years, they were beating everyone in Europe but when they played that old version of the Club World Cup against Pele's Santos they lost both games and Pele scored 5 goals in 2 games against the best European team at the time. To put it in today's terms it's almost unimaginable, the Brazilian government restricted Pele to move to Europe, Pele scored more goals against European nationals teams compared to matches he played against them.

Now I do know that Brazil had a great team even without Pele but the fact is, Pele proved his status everywhere he went to play, nobody that played with him or against him denied that he was really the best of the bunch.

Just look at this video, it's about what I said that Pele invented 90% of the things that players use today, I mean he wasn't like Ronaldo he was a number 10 player but even so he just knew how to score and if you examine his abilities you will notice that he had no weakness as a player, he could play with both feet not like Messi and Maradona that only have a strong left foot and Pele could score headers, free kicks he had a good vision to pass the ball and he had great technique, IMO he was at least 20 years ahead of his time.

 

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2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Well it's all a matter of a personal view, I saw many videos of Pele and I totally understand why people thought he was the best, when he played European teams he was unstoppable both at the club and national level and those were the days when it was some the hardest defenses, the Brazilian players that were stars in Italy (Jair da Costa, Amarildo and so on) were bench players for Brazil and when Pele played against Serie A teams he dominated.

For example Benfica was the multiple winner of the European Cup those years, they were beating everyone in Europe but when they played that old version of the Club World Cup against Pele's Santos they lost both games and Pele scored 5 goals in 2 games against the best European team at the time. To put it in today's terms it's almost unimaginable, the Brazilian government restricted Pele to move to Europe, Pele scored more goals against European nationals teams compared to matches he played against them.

Now I do know that Brazil had a great team even without Pele but the fact is, Pele proved his status everywhere he went to play, nobody that played with him or against him denied that he was really the best of the bunch.

Just look at this video, it's about what I said that Pele invented 90% of the things that players use today, I mean he wasn't like Ronaldo he was a number 10 player but even so he just knew how to score and if you examine his abilities you will notice that he had no weakness as a player, he could play with both feet not like Messi and Maradona that only have a strong left foot and Pele could score headers, free kicks he had a good vision to pass the ball and he had great technique, IMO he was at least 20 years ahead of his time.

 

What a fantastic video, the first one!

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3 hours ago, driller97 said:

Most overrated player in history? Dont think so.

How old are you? I'm amazed at the confidence with which people judge players they have only seen YouTube clips of. And maybe one or two full matches replayed. I would hesitate to comment about the 'greateness' of footballers who played in the early 90s, forget about few decades before that.

How have you concluded that Pele is overrated?

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 05/09/2020 at 11:24, Malcolm9 said:

Casual football fan.......ok then. 

Messi is amazing, but for me Ronaldo moved out of his comfort zone and proved himself across the best leagues in the world.

Messi was in the best ever Barca XI for the majority of the time, but if you look at his international career it is a totally different story. Ronaldo also evolved into a more striker type player, but in his earlier days for Utd and Madrid his dribbling and take ons were superb, it isn't just about his goals.

Both are GOATs though.

I do agree that both are GOAT level players, but this argument that Ronaldo has done it in other countries is terrible. Joining Real Madrid and then Juventus (which is essentially a 1 team league) doesnt make him amazing.

Also the fact Messi tears teams up from all over europe in the champions league is enough. Messi could easily probably go and join PSG and win the league every year whilst being top scorer and top assister, doesnt automatically make him 100x better just because he did it in another league does it

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 07/09/2020 at 15:36, Luiz4Chelsea said:

Depends how you define greatest player ever.

A player may have been more ahead of his time than anyone in history yet Messi and Ronaldo would still wipe the floor with him today.

I don't happen to agree with you but that doesn't really matter. Nor does it matter that I have never heard anyone claim Ronaldo is a better player than Pele was, That's almost certainly simply because I've missed it rather than because no one said it. Of course many people do prefer Messi over Pele however. If you believe that the two modern superstars are better than Pele then you are in plenty of company. Plenty of highly respected company to boot.

If however, you seriously believe that Messi & Ronaldo, "would wipe the floor with him", then you can't ever have been more wrong with a football opinion than you would be with that one. 

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20 hours ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

I don't happen to agree with you but that doesn't really matter. Nor does it matter that I have never heard anyone claim Ronaldo is a better player than Pele was, That's almost certainly simply because I've missed it rather than because no one said it. Of course many people do prefer Messi over Pele however. If you believe that the two modern superstars are better than Pele then you are in plenty of company. Plenty of highly respected company to boot.

If however, you seriously believe that Messi & Ronaldo, "would wipe the floor with him", then you can't ever have been more wrong with a football opinion than you would be with that one. 

Then I suggest you reread my post. I'm not comparing any two or three actual players, I'm saying a GOAT-discussion is redundant when there is no unanimously agreed definition of what is being discussed.

Greatest standout player of all time or simply strongest player to have ever played. Due to a general tactical progress of the game there could feasibly be a divergence.

 

Personally I don't think either of these discussions make a lot of sense. Any supporter of the modern era player will argue "but we don't know if that old player could have done it against today's tighter defenses. Also players today train on a whole different level so on the same pitch that old payer would have been totally out of his depth." And every supporter of the past era player will argue "Of course he would have done it against modern backlines, particularly if he would have received that modern day training you're talking about."

A player`s role for a country, club or even the game in general could probably be compared intergenerationally. Players' abilities should only be compared when they play at the same time. 

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  • 2 months later...
On 02/11/2020 at 09:43, Luiz4Chelsea said:

Then I suggest you reread my post. I'm not comparing any two or three actual players, I'm saying a GOAT-discussion is redundant when there is no unanimously agreed definition of what is being discussed.

Greatest standout player of all time or simply strongest player to have ever played. Due to a general tactical progress of the game there could feasibly be a divergence.

 

Personally I don't think either of these discussions make a lot of sense. Any supporter of the modern era player will argue "but we don't know if that old player could have done it against today's tighter defenses. Also players today train on a whole different level so on the same pitch that old payer would have been totally out of his depth." And every supporter of the past era player will argue "Of course he would have done it against modern backlines, particularly if he would have received that modern day training you're talking about."

A player`s role for a country, club or even the game in general could probably be compared intergenerationally. Players' abilities should only be compared when they play at the same time. 

Apologies for the delayed reply. I don't visit this forum very often.

You did use the phrase, "would wipe the floor with him".

The training methods argument is a red herring. Any player from a bygone era magically transported into the modern game would train, fuel and lift as modern players do. Physically, they'd be fine.

As someone who has been watching football for fifty-four years I can attest to the fact that football tactics have evolved. I also attest however that not every modern defender is better than all defenders from previous eras in terms of their skill set and physical attributes. I don't believe these considerations carry much weight. The greats of yesteryear would still be great because it is not tactics which make outstanding footballers. Tactics can be learned, talent cannot.

Even if it were true that those things made life easier for attackers years ago, the fact that the laws of the modern game have been changed enormously to the advantage of attacking play is something that would level up the playing field a bit. Ultimately, I have no problem if someone believes Messi is better than Pele but dismissing the man Messi honours by wearing his shirt number as someone modern players would wipe the floor with makes no sense to me.

*I know Messi wears 10 because Maradonna wore it but he used it because it is the iconic shirt in world football and it got that status because it was the shirt Pele wore.

Edited by OhForAGreavsie
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2 hours ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

Apologies for the delayed reply. I don't visit this forum very often.

You did use the phrase, "would wipe the floor with him".

The training methods argument is a red herring. Any player from a bygone era magically transported into the modern game would train, fuel and lift as modern players do. Physically, they'd be fine.

As someone who has been watching football for fifty-four years I can attest to the fact that football tactics have evolved. I also attest however that not every modern defender is better than all defenders from previous eras in terms of their skill set and physical attributes. I don't believe these considerations carry much weight. The greats of yesteryear would still be great because it is not tactics which make outstanding footballers. Tactics can be learned, talent cannot.

Even if it were true that those things made life easier for attackers years ago, the fact that the laws of the modern game have been changed enormously to the advantage of attacking play is something that would level up the playing field a bit. Ultimately, I have no problem if someone believes Messi is better than Pele but dismissing the man Messi honours by wearing his shirt number as someone modern players would wipe the floor with makes no sense to me.

*I know Messi wears 10 because Maradonna wore it but he used it because it is the iconic shirt in world football and it got that status because it was the shirt Pele wore.

Additionally, if you read about Messi it becomes clear that he had some health issues growing up and that he could only become a football player due to modern medicine, put him in Pele's era and he wouldn't have made it.

But put Pele today with modern ways of protecting a career of a football player with modern diets, conditions and so on and he would still be a great player.

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