7 minutes ago, coco said:

Must be why less than 20k go to watch them.

Maybe Torino FC has more local fans and Juventus has the most fans outside of the city... IDK

13 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Maybe Torino FC has more local fans and Juventus has the most fans outside of the city... IDK

Maybe they lost some fans to united when Ronaldo left

 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 20214 yr by LongtimerLurker

37 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

The first thing I'll say is that everything looks worse when key players are lacking confidence and are ponderous on the ball. Many of them started the season that way so I hope he sticks to the system for these reasons:

If you play 4 at the back, Alonso, Azpi, Jorginho and Silva are automatically way more exposed and can become liabilities for their lack of pace. Pep and Klopp took years and got the players they wanted to make it work. Tuchel has gotten.... Lukaku. It's also why I think we went for Kounde, so that it would be a more viable option. 

Pep and Klopp also have better quality attackers in their starting 11s. In essence you would be moving a defensive player from our strongest area on the pitch and adding an attacker which is decidedly our weakest area. What's the point of adding another player who is just going to ignore runs and lack precision in the final third at the risk of conceding a lot more? If we had the players to mitigate the risk then by all means. 

We won the CL and are a point off the top of the log after having the toughest run of opening fixtures. Now is not the time to lose faith and I certainly would rather have the structural support to carry Jorginho, Azpi and Silva. 

IMO T.Silva and Jorginho are very much capable of playing in any back 4 formation. Azpilicueta would struggle with pace as the RB but at this point him and James should rotate there so that shouldn't be a problem. PSG played a 4-3-3 against Man City and comfortably won the match just because they are offensively oriented and challenge Pep's team to open up if they dare to. We have Lukaku, Werner, Havertz that are all capable of destroying any opposition in a counter-attack or when the game is opened up but we never play like that.

32 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

The first thing I'll say is that everything looks worse when key players are lacking confidence and are ponderous on the ball. Many of them started the season that way so I hope he sticks to the system for these reasons:

If you play 4 at the back, Alonso, Azpi, Jorginho and Silva are automatically way more exposed and can become liabilities for their lack of pace. Pep and Klopp took years and got the players they wanted to make it work. Tuchel has gotten.... Lukaku. It's also why I think we went for Kounde, so that it would be a more viable option. 

Pep and Klopp also have better quality attackers in their starting 11s. In essence you would be moving a defensive player from our strongest area on the pitch and adding an attacker which is decidedly our weakest area. What's the point of adding another player who is just going to ignore runs and lack precision in the final third at the risk of conceding a lot more? If we had the players to mitigate the risk then by all means. 

We won the CL and are a point off the top of the log after having the toughest run of opening fixtures. Now is not the time to lose faith and I certainly would rather have the structural support to carry Jorginho, Azpi and Silva. 

Mate I've been the first one to point all of this out but, I'm starting to come around to the ideas of others regarding the shape. I don't want to play like this all season and come up short of a title because then essentially watching the drab football was for nothing.

I can stomach not scoring lots of goals if it means we win games and don't conceded but, you have to be aware that no system in world football is sustainable completely.

To be found out once or twice is fine but, when everyone starts to play like this vs us it's just going to make games less enjoyable to watch and then you start looking forward to the games less and less.

I'm not trying to be negative and I don't think anyone else is who wants to see us at least attempt a back 4. I'm just talking about wanting to see more entertaining football nothing else.

I also think it's a dangerous mentality to have to think we can only play 3 atb it gives players and the coach an excuse not to change things. Let's not forget Lamps went on an unbeaten streak with 4atb as did Sarri (Hazard definitely a factor) 

 

9 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Maybe they lost some fans to united when Ronaldo left

 

 

 

 

That has to be a factor but in general I do think Juve is liked mainly outside of their own city for some reason...

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

IMO T.Silva and Jorginho are very much capable of playing in any back 4 formation. Azpilicueta would struggle with pace as the RB but at this point him and James should rotate there so that shouldn't be a problem. PSG played a 4-3-3 against Man City and comfortably won the match just because they are offensively oriented and challenge Pep's team to open up if they dare to. We have Lukaku, Werner, Havertz that are all capable of destroying any opposition in a counter-attack or when the game is opened up but we never play like that.

I'm actually convinced after reading this the flaw in the system is we are too defensively good. Dominating the possesion like you said means we very rarely counter attack which is to the strengths of just about every attacker in our team, not to mention Kante looks good I'm a possession based team but on counter attack boy is he devastating.

1 minute ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I'm actually convinced after reading this the flaw in the system is we are too defensively good. Dominating the possesion like you said means we very rarely counter attack which is to the strengths of just about every attacker in our team, not to mention Kante looks good I'm a possession based team but on counter attack boy is he devastating.

IMO Tuchel could just pair Lukaku and Werner or Lukaku and Havertz behind him and play more deeper.

Conte won Serie A playing like that and there Lukaku had 24 goals and 10 assists... Because it just makes sense and when you think about it, even like that in a counter-attacking formation or in a different formation like 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 we would still have the majority of possession anyway against smaller teams but we would attack faster which is often the key in scoring more goals or at least making more chances.

Playing too safe and predictable at moment, expect similar pattern and result if we dont change it this weekend. The wingbacks need to be faster and more attacking minded, I'd like to see Chiwell and CHO in. RLC comes in the midfield, whether replacing Kovacic or Jorghno is still debatable. Werner to comes in the front 3, just let him run and disrupt the opposition shape. It may not fix our problems straight away, but at least something different. Really need Mount and Pullisic back, missing that work rate and dribbling ability in the final third.

Trying the same things over and over again expecting a different result? Missing the target when did get decent chances? Defending terribly? Giving the ball away cheaply? Looking like we could barely be ar$Ed?

Watched the game expecting to see TT sides, instead saw Lampards one from December last year.

Simply put, EPL and CL managers aren't exactly idiots.

They will figure TT out, sooner or later.

TT might have surprised them 6 months ago, but not any more.

He needs to be flexible, adapt, and evolve. Otherwise, results like these will be more common than you would think.

Chelsea has a lot of offensive talents, use that to your advantage.

4 minutes ago, haviet1 said:

Simply put, EPL and CL managers aren't exactly idiots.

They will figure TT out, sooner or later.

TT might have surprised them 6 months ago, but not any more.

He needs to be flexible, adapt, and evolve. Otherwise, results like these will be more common than you would think.

Chelsea has a lot of offensive talents, use that to your advantage.

Word for word that is the sort of thing we said about Conte.

3 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Word for word that is the sort of thing we said about Conte.

 

Wasn't around at that time...Pulisic wasn't there yet 🤣

He has his work cut out for him. We don't have enough goalscorers in the team, and this has been a problem for quite a long time. What is even more worrying is the fact that we are not creating many chances. Last season, our finishing was atrocious but we were creating good chances in almost every game. Now, the chances seem to have dried up. In both Champions League games, as well as the games against City and Villa in the Carabao cup, we hardly created any clear chances. I hope he figures out something soon before it becomes another of our characteristic slumps.

We have all seen this before, beginning with the end of Jose's first spell. We get figured out, no sign of a plan B, players lose focus, confidence and start to play like they are not bothered at all.

Looks like it might be starting again. 

8 hours ago, Gol15 said:

The comment you quoted has Jorginho as the DM?

Jorginho can't play as double pivot in back 4. With Jorgi, you have to play in midfield 3 with back 4.

41 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

We have all seen this before, beginning with the end of Jose's first spell. We get figured out, no sign of a plan B, players lose focus, confidence and start to play like they are not bothered at all.

Looks like it might be starting again. 

I would actually say a better comparisions would be Mou's second spell going into season two.

We had a great big game record in the first year but a sketchy one in lesser games, we signed a player (Lukaku now Cesc then) who sorted our record in the lesser games but complicated our big game record.

Just like with Cesc how to hide/fit Lukaku in the crunch games will be the tactical headache of the season.

Edited September 30, 20214 yr by Argo

2 minutes ago, Argo said:

I would actually say a better comparisions would be Mou's second spell going into season two.

We had a great big game record in the first year but a sketchy one in lesser games, we signed a player (Lukaku now Cesc then) who sorted our record in the lesser games but complicated our big game record.

Just like with Cesc how to hide/fit in Lukaku in the crunch games will be the tactical headache of the season.

That works, Frank's second season and not getting Havertz or werner settled in.

Personally now believe TT won't be our manager for next season.

1 hour ago, Bob stark said:

Jorginho can't play as double pivot in back 4. With Jorgi, you have to play in midfield 3 with back 4.

You don't know that.

2 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Trying the same things over and over again expecting a different result? Missing the target when did get decent chances? Defending terribly? Giving the ball away cheaply? Looking like we could barely be ar$Ed?

Watched the game expecting to see TT sides, instead saw Lampards one from December last year.

Certainly the run that saw the end to Lampard's tenure started in a similar way. Losing a couple of games where we looked out of sorts after a decent run. A little early to know whether this is a blip or the start of a prolonged loss of form though. Hoping the former.

For all the talk of a strong squad I'm not convinced we are any stronger than last season. Lukaku is certainly a mark up as a center forward. But Saul has struggled and doesn't seem to be trusted by Tuchel. Loans can go either way and so far it doesn't look promising. Then the club let so many talented younger players leave this summer, and you wonder if some of them could have been convinced to stay if they had been given bigger roles in the squad. For example the likes of Livramento, Guehi, and Gilmour could have been introduced into the squad this season and improved it significantly.

16 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

You don't know that.

It is so obvious why he can't play in double pivot 

Edited September 30, 20214 yr by Bob stark

12 minutes ago, forbzy said:

Certainly the run that saw the end to Lampard's tenure started in a similar way. Losing a couple of games where we looked out of sorts after a decent run. A little early to know whether this is a blip or the start of a prolonged loss of form though. Hoping the former.

For all the talk of a strong squad I'm not convinced we are any stronger than last season. Lukaku is certainly a mark up as a center forward. But Saul has struggled and doesn't seem to be trusted by Tuchel. Loans can go either way and so far it doesn't look promising. Then the club let so many talented younger players leave this summer, and you wonder if some of them could have been convinced to stay if they had been given bigger roles in the squad. For example the likes of Livramento, Guehi, and Gilmour could have been introduced into the squad this season and improved it significantly.

Certainly is a little early to call it for sure, but I just have that same feeling about it again, as I did for Jose mark 2 and Lamps. Much as I wanted them to stay, be trusted to work through it even with short term pain, in the end we knew Roman would act.

TT comments about how things looked fine beforehand but did not work out in the game seems a little similar to Jose and his being "betrayed" and Lamps echoing something similar.

That is the road I think we have started walking sadly. Hope I am wrong but I think he won't be here next season and may be gpne before it.

9 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

It is so obvious why he can't play in double pivot 

Then take him out. He has taken him out at half time even with the 3-5-2 formation,  we don’t have to play him.

4 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Certainly is a little early to call it for sure, but I just have that same feeling about it again, as I did for Jose mark 2 and Lamps. Much as I wanted them to stay, be trusted to work through it even with short term pain, in the end we knew Roman would act.

TT comments about how things looked fine beforehand but did not work out in the game seems a little similar to Jose and his being "betrayed" and Lamps echoing something similar.

That is the road I think we have started walking sadly. Hope I am wrong but I think he won't be here next season and may be gpne before it.

That isn’t on the club though, this is on him. I don’t think he walked into the club expecting to play this formation, but somehow stumbled on its effectiveness. Winning the CL with it has seen his stock rise, and a selection of fans/pundits were rating him on par with Klopp/Tuchel which he clearly isn’t. He has been hiding behind this formation, when he should have tried working out some other formation in case it gets found out.

I fully expect him to go down fighting with this formation, and I expect teams to set up against us the way Juve have and try sneaking a point at the minimum.

6 minutes ago, ducavis said:

Then take him out. He has taken him out at half time even with the 3-5-2 formation,  we don’t have to play him.

I was talking with @Gol15

Of course, he want Jorginho to play. But you simply can't play Jorginho in double pivot. We have seen it under Lamp. 

11 minutes ago, ducavis said:

That isn’t on the club though, this is on him. I don’t think he walked into the club expecting to play this formation, but somehow stumbled on its effectiveness. Winning the CL with it has seen his stock rise, and a selection of fans/pundits were rating him on par with Klopp/Tuchel which he clearly isn’t. He has been hiding behind this formation, when he should have tried working out some other formation in case it gets found out.

I fully expect him to go down fighting with this formation, and I expect teams to set up against us the way Juve have and try sneaking a point at the minimum.

Formation is not the problem. The most important question you need to ask who do you want to get the best out of.