34 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

Watched two Madrid games this season and he's more of a false 9 I'd say.

Wait, you're serious? You'd laugh at Madrid if they offered us Bellingham for Enzo? Wow. I know you love Enzo and will stay stubborn for a while, but I believe one of these days you'll come around and realize that he isn't all that. We got rinsed and Madrid would maybe offer us half of what we paid. If we're lucky.

Ok, maybe not half. Let's say 70M, but Euros of course.

If we put Enzo on the market tommorow every team in world football with means to afford him will try to sign him.

He's been excellent regardless of the sh*tshow around him. Ironic Bellingham is mentioned because the season he burst onto the scene nearly ended in relegation, yet despite that Dortmund signed him and many other huge clubs wanted to sign him, he is literally the poster boy of impressing contary to what's going on around him 

Edited September 18, 20232 yr by Argo

Madrid have a host of midfielders old and young who are better than Enzo, even Ceballos would give Enzo a run for his money.

16 hours ago, axman2526 said:

In retrospect only he should not have played, clearly the travel and games took too much out of him.

Of course if Poch rested him and we drew 0-0 he would be getting even more grief.

He played on Tuesday at altitude (12,000') at La Paz. Mac Allister too. Mac Allister struggled badly, Klopp subbed him at half time. Bringing on Diaz. Poch didn't have any such luxury. The criticism is plain pig ignorance.

Edited September 18, 20232 yr by dermott

12 minutes ago, Argo said:

If we put Enzo on the market tommorow every team in world football with means to afford him will try to sign him.

He's been excellent regardless of the sh*tshow around him. Ironic Bellingham is mentioned because the season he burst onto the scene nearly ended in relegation, yet despite that Dortmund signed him and many other huge clubs wanted to sign him, he is literally the poster boy of impressing contary to what's going on around him 

Why I believe he will lose patience in the project. Year after year of no CL football for a world cup winning tournament young player of the tourney? No chance.

Will open the door to Pool, Arsenal and anyone else. 

Imagine if City decide he is who they want to replace Bernado. Silva has a release clause of 50mill so he can go to Barca or PSG next summer.

Mid table Chelsea, or regular title winners City, current treble holders? A firey young Argie I can see behaving like Nunes at Wolves did, at the mo we are at the same level as Wolves.

I can see City being willing to spend 65mill-75mill on Enzo.

Just now, dermott said:

He played on Tuesday at altitude (12,000') at La Paz. Mac Allister too. Mac Allister struggled badly, Klopp subbed him at half time. Bringing on Diaz. Poch didn't have any such luxury.

He did not have a player the quality of Diaz no. He did have options though. Whether starting or subbing on for

1. Replace him with Maatsen. Maatsen plays the 10, Gallagher and Lesely the double pivot.

2. Replace him with Palmer. Palmer plays the 10, Gallagher and Lesely the double pivot.

3. Replace him with Chilwell. Chilwell plays LW, Sterling to the 10, Mudryk to the RW and Gallagher/Lesely double pivot.

4. Replace him with Washington. Washington goes RW, Sterling goes to 10, Gallagher/Lesely double pivot.

 

He had options, he chose to play a tired Enzo.

38 minutes ago, Argo said:

If we put Enzo on the market tommorow every team in world football with means to afford him will try to sign him.

He's been excellent regardless of the sh*tshow around him. Ironic Bellingham is mentioned because the season he burst onto the scene nearly ended in relegation, yet despite that Dortmund signed him and many other huge clubs wanted to sign him, he is literally the poster boy of impressing contary to what's going on around him 

If we put him up for the price we signed him for? Sometimes I'm not sure if people are serious or not, but that has to be a joke, right?

I don't know what makes him so excellent. I have to admit, I was against the transfer from the very start, because we massively overpaid for him imho. But from day one I've heard he's world class and super high level, people were mentioning the likes of Modric and Fabregas, so I said "Ok, let's not judge and wait". And I thought if he was all that he'd have the ability to decide games by himself once in a while, so being from wouldn't have been that bad. But I haven't seen it as of yet. So if I am overlooking something and you have seen it, please tell me when.

Now I'm sure some people will pull out some stellar stats and whatnot, but stats can be really decieving. I'm watching what I see on the pitch and aside from a nice pass here and there I don't see that supposed brilliance. If we wanted a spark here and there we could've kept RLC or even the much hated Jorginho (yes, I've said it!), doubt we'd be worse off in terms of our table position.

Again, all that being said; I don't think he's our problem. He's still a young guy that has a lot to learn. I don't think the midfield is our problem in general. I'm just annoyed we are still playing the emperors new clothes with him in the main role while we can't even beat Bournemouth.

29 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

If we put him up for the price we signed him for? Sometimes I'm not sure if people are serious or not, but that has to be a joke, right?

I don't know what makes him so excellent. I have to admit, I was against the transfer from the very start, because we massively overpaid for him imho. But from day one I've heard he's world class and super high level, people were mentioning the likes of Modric and Fabregas, so I said "Ok, let's not judge and wait". And I thought if he was all that he'd have the ability to decide games by himself once in a while, so being from wouldn't have been that bad. But I haven't seen it as of yet. So if I am overlooking something and you have seen it, please tell me when.

Now I'm sure some people will pull out some stellar stats and whatnot, but stats can be really decieving. I'm watching what I see on the pitch and aside from a nice pass here and there I don't see that supposed brilliance. If we wanted a spark here and there we could've kept RLC or even the much hated Jorginho (yes, I've said it!), doubt we'd be worse off in terms of our table position.

Again, all that being said; I don't think he's our problem. He's still a young guy that has a lot to learn. I don't think the midfield is our problem in general. I'm just annoyed we are still playing the emperors new clothes with him in the main role while we can't even beat Bournemouth.

Since he's joined us he's been in the top end percentile at pretty much every relevant underlying metric for his position and was the main reason performances and results were looking up until we threw the season by reappointing Lamps.

Under Potter/Bruno he was averaging 11 successful switches/long passes a game which is just a ridiculous number.

Also given we found a market for Mount/Havertz despite them being underwhelming for 18 months, there isn't a snowballs in hells chance there won't be interest in Enzo, even if he wasn't performing he'd have been given the "Chelsea benefit of the doubt" those two got 

8 hours ago, enigma said:

He was definitely not ever worth that money. He was bought for like €18m a season before by Benfica. Even if he had scored 10 goals and assisted 10 goals, he should never have been worth even close to that. Half that maybe, but of course we over paid for him. He had played 26 matches in total for Benfica and scored 3 goals and got 5 assists. He was bought by Benfica off the back of 20 matches, 8 goals and 6 assists. 

I believe he was worth it or that he in the end will end up being worth it because he has everything that you could dream of a central midfielder to have and he's young on top of that.

About the stats or the end product, you have a huge argument there, it's all there, but let's remember that what ultimately made that price tag, it wasn't his days in Benfica but what he accomplished with Argentina at the World Cup which is the highest possible achievement for a football player, or at the very least the ultimate thing.

Let's not forget that he came here and basically did a training or two and was solo running our midfield from day 1 in the first match and up till the season was over and he did it with a team that was in total shambles and without a real manager as well!
Obviously he wasn't bought for that, but he came to us in the worst possible time a player could have come and did a phenomenal job. I guarantee you no other player would have done it as well, you put Rice in there and he would surrender against Fulham automatically, but Enzo had a really high number of passes, progressive passes, tackles, blocks I mean you name it, in his first match he showed he's worth it.

Edited September 18, 20232 yr by Gol15

3 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Why I believe he will lose patience in the project. Year after year of no CL football for a world cup winning tournament young player of the tourney? No chance.

Will open the door to Pool, Arsenal and anyone else. 

Imagine if City decide he is who they want to replace Bernado. Silva has a release clause of 50mill so he can go to Barca or PSG next summer.

Mid table Chelsea, or regular title winners City, current treble holders? A firey young Argie I can see behaving like Nunes at Wolves did, at the mo we are at the same level as Wolves.

I can see City being willing to spend 65mill-75mill on Enzo.

He is a fighter though, he came to do a job here and he won't just quit on the team. The first person that isn't doing it is James and they respect each other a whole lot already.

Do I believe that a lot of players would accept playing for Pep's Man City? Yea it's true, but some wouldn't give a f**k, Ibrahimovic lost respect for Pep after he broke some records in La Liga as a newcomer since Pep suddenly benched him for no reason, we also have some players that played for us that didn't give a sh*t about Pep, Deco and Jorginho for example and both are midfielders so maybe Enzo is one of them too and he would ultimately do what Hazard did, join Real Madrid after becoming a CFC legend.

1 hour ago, Argo said:

Since he's joined us he's been in the top end percentile at pretty much every relevant underlying metric for his position and was the main reason performances and results were looking up until we threw the season by reappointing Lamps.

Under Potter/Bruno he was averaging 11 successful switches/long passes a game which is just a ridiculous number.

Also given we found a market for Mount/Havertz despite them being underwhelming for 18 months, there isn't a snowballs in hells chance there won't be interest in Enzo, even if he wasn't performing he'd have been given the "Chelsea benefit of the doubt" those two got 

All relevant metrics? What metrics exactly and why are pre-assists/assist and goals not a relevant stat for his position? When he came here people told me they were so happy to finally have a class midfielder other than Kante, Kova and Jorgi because he can actually contribute goals and assists from midfield like he did in Portugal. I believe it was you that told me I was talking nonsense when I was sceptical. Still nonsense?

No need for a strawman, mate. I never said that there wouldn't be interest, I said that there wouldn't be any interest if we were asking as much as we paid for him. That's a big difference. Actually, come to think of it, I should say no club in Europe would be interested, he could certainly go to Saudi Arabia.

1 hour ago, Vagabond said:

All relevant metrics? What metrics exactly and why are pre-assists/assist and goals not a relevant stat for his position? When he came here people told me they were so happy to finally have a class midfielder other than Kante, Kova and Jorgi because he can actually contribute goals and assists from midfield like he did in Portugal. I believe it was you that told me I was talking nonsense when I was sceptical. Still nonsense?

No need for a strawman, mate. I never said that there wouldn't be interest, I said that there wouldn't be any interest if we were asking as much as we paid for him. That's a big difference. Actually, come to think of it, I should say no club in Europe would be interested, he could certainly go to Saudi Arabia.

I can 100% say with complete and absolute assurance it wasn't goals and assists that were the reason I was excited about signing him. You won't find one post of mine (not one) that said anything along the lines of that when we were linked with him, infact Poch trying to shoe horn him further up the pitch is pissing me off, he's a deep lying playmaker not an attacking one.

Hopefully we won't have to find out anytime soon but I will be absolutely stunned if there's not any significant bidders if we put him on the market.

17 minutes ago, Argo said:

I can 100% say with complete and absolute assurance it wasn't goals and assists that were the reason I was excited about signing him. You won't find one post of mine (not one) that said anything along the lines of that when we were linked with him, infact Poch trying to shoe horn him further up the pitch is pissing me off, he's a deep lying playmaker not an attacking one.

Hopefully we won't have to find out anytime soon but I will be absolutely stunned if there's not any significant bidders if we put him on the market.

It's pissing me off too. The guy was outstanding vs Liverpool. Watching him pick it up on the halfway line, taking touches and playing passes that takes out 2 or 3 opposition players is what we need in that position. Either play Gallagher further forward or try something else. Don't shoehorn Fernandez in there just to because you don't think anybody else can play there.

8 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

It's pissing me off too. The guy was outstanding vs Liverpool. Watching him pick it up on the halfway line, taking touches and playing passes that takes out 2 or 3 opposition players is what we need in that position. Either play Gallagher further forward or try something else. Don't shoehorn Fernandez in there just to because you don't think anybody else can play there.

I really hope he's not putting the wishes of Enzo himself (his Dad said he hopes to play higher up this season) into account.

I'm sure many players would ideally like to play different positions to what they do, but the coaches should be there to save them from themselves.

2 hours ago, Argo said:

I can 100% say with complete and absolute assurance it wasn't goals and assists that were the reason I was excited about signing him. You won't find one post of mine (not one) that said anything along the lines of that when we were linked with him, infact Poch trying to shoe horn him further up the pitch is pissing me off, he's a deep lying playmaker not an attacking one.

Hopefully we won't have to find out anytime soon but I will be absolutely stunned if there's not any significant bidders if we put him on the market.

 

2 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

It's pissing me off too. The guy was outstanding vs Liverpool. Watching him pick it up on the halfway line, taking touches and playing passes that takes out 2 or 3 opposition players is what we need in that position. Either play Gallagher further forward or try something else. Don't shoehorn Fernandez in there just to because you don't think anybody else can play there.

A few things are odd about the team, Chilwell at left wing and Colwill at left back included. 

Pochettino has to do what he thinks will work out in the medium to long term though as is his neck and reputation on the line.

Maybe it is Enzos wish to play further forward Argo. He is the star player, star sometimes gets what he wants like Messi and Ronaldo have.

52 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Maybe it is Enzos wish to play further forward Argo. He is the star player, star sometimes gets what he wants like Messi and Ronaldo have.

Yes but like I said that's when managers need to save players from themselves, how many attacking fullbacks do you think would be playing in midfield or on the wing if they made the decisions? I'd wager almost all of them. I'd also bet anything I have Ederson would have become an outfielder by now If he had any say about it.

Re Ronaldo/Messi if the former started demanding to play in CM any manager worth his salt would have told him no because even peak CR7 would have been utterly dreadful in that position (Messi could have done it mind).

Edited September 19, 20232 yr by Argo

40 minutes ago, Argo said:

Yes but like I said that's when managers need to save players from themselves, how many attacking fullbacks do you think would be playing in midfield or on the wing if they made the decisions? I'd wager almost all of them. I'd also bet anything I have Ederson would have become an outfielder by now If he had any say about it.

Re Ronaldo/Messi if the former started demanding to play in CM any manager worth his salt would have told him no because even peak CR7 would have been utterly dreadful in that position (Messi could have done it mind).

Well said.. it should have been a non-starter and the manager should never have entertained the idea. His position higher up the field since Carney got injured is a reason why we look a mess in transition. You mentioned long balls & switches in your earlier post, and in the Bournemouth match the switches just wasn’t happening. Gallagher doesn’t have the skill set to pick out a long ball or switch the ball from right to left, all our attack was going through the right. Murdyk was free on the left flank, and had his marker on toast but he couldn’t pick him out.

Enzo’s metrics is down across the board; long balls have gone from a high 11 per match to now averaging 6, passes are done from averaging over 90s to 74. All because he wants to moonlight as a playmaker. We didn’t pay the high fee because we needed him to be a De Bruyne, it’s to give us more control in the middle of the park.

 

1 hour ago, Argo said:

Yes but like I said that's when managers need to save players from themselves, how many attacking fullbacks do you think would be playing in midfield or on the wing if they made the decisions? I'd wager almost all of them. I'd also bet anything I have Ederson would have become an outfielder by now If he had any say about it.

Re Ronaldo/Messi if the former started demanding to play in CM any manager worth his salt would have told him no because even peak CR7 would have been utterly dreadful in that position (Messi could have done it mind).

Fair points. Never know, Enzo may well come good in an advanced position. Can but hope, Pochettino may surprise us and he, Colwill and Chilly may adept well to their new positions.

15 hours ago, Vagabond said:

Watched two Madrid games this season and he's more of a false 9 I'd say.

Wait, you're serious? You'd laugh at Madrid if they offered us Bellingham for Enzo? Wow. I know you love Enzo and will stay stubborn for a while, but I believe one of these days you'll come around and realize that he isn't all that. We got rinsed and Madrid would maybe offer us half of what we paid. If we're lucky.

Ok, maybe not half. Let's say 70M, but Euros of course.

False 9, CF, same thing different name. Point is he's there to score the goals in his current role.

I don't even particularly love Enzo, that's @Gol15. I wouldn't swap him for Jude though. Complete different profile of players, they'd compliment each other well in a midfield 3 with someone holding. Enzo is every bit as talented as Jude though, worth just as much. Obviously paid a WC winner tax but that's not our concern.

We'd be having the same issues if we had Bellingham instead of Enzo.

15 hours ago, Ernie_blue said:

Madrid have a host of midfielders old and young who are better than Enzo, even Ceballos would give Enzo a run for his money.

This has to be satire. 

14 hours ago, axman2526 said:

He did not have a player the quality of Diaz no. He did have options though. Whether starting or subbing on for

1. Replace him with Maatsen. Maatsen plays the 10, Gallagher and Lesely the double pivot.

2. Replace him with Palmer. Palmer plays the 10, Gallagher and Lesely the double pivot.

3. Replace him with Chilwell. Chilwell plays LW, Sterling to the 10, Mudryk to the RW and Gallagher/Lesely double pivot.

4. Replace him with Washington. Washington goes RW, Sterling goes to 10, Gallagher/Lesely double pivot.

 

He had options, he chose to play a tired Enzo.

TBF a tired Enzo is better than any of those options. The drop in quality of the midfield (Maatsen, Gallagher, Ugochukwu) after his substitution is relegation fodder.

6 hours ago, ducavis said:

Well said.. it should have been a non-starter and the manager should never have entertained the idea. His position higher up the field since Carney got injured is a reason why we look a mess in transition. You mentioned long balls & switches in your earlier post, and in the Bournemouth match the switches just wasn’t happening. Gallagher doesn’t have the skill set to pick out a long ball or switch the ball from right to left, all our attack was going through the right. Murdyk was free on the left flank, and had his marker on toast but he couldn’t pick him out.

Enzo’s metrics is down across the board; long balls have gone from a high 11 per match to now averaging 6, passes are done from averaging over 90s to 74. All because he wants to moonlight as a playmaker. We didn’t pay the high fee because we needed him to be a De Bruyne, it’s to give us more control in the middle of the park.

 

He's supposed to be at the base of the midfield, solo in a 4-3-3 or with Caicedo in a 4-2-3-1, that much is clear.

I believe we could play Gallagher in front, just switch places with Enzo and we would have more control, people forget that Gallagher can score goals.

7 hours ago, ducavis said:

Well said.. it should have been a non-starter and the manager should never have entertained the idea. His position higher up the field since Carney got injured is a reason why we look a mess in transition. You mentioned long balls & switches in your earlier post, and in the Bournemouth match the switches just wasn’t happening. Gallagher doesn’t have the skill set to pick out a long ball or switch the ball from right to left, all our attack was going through the right. Murdyk was free on the left flank, and had his marker on toast but he couldn’t pick him out.

Enzo’s metrics is down across the board; long balls have gone from a high 11 per match to now averaging 6, passes are done from averaging over 90s to 74. All because he wants to moonlight as a playmaker. We didn’t pay the high fee because we needed him to be a De Bruyne, it’s to give us more control in the middle of the park.

 

If all we get with Enzo is control then paying 120m for him is a waste of money. 

We want Enzo to go forward so he can impact the game in final 3rd. 

So why play Enzo so high? We need a connector. We have 3 healthy one: Enzo, Sterling and palmer (raw). 

So the obvious choice is to play Palmer but no way you will play Palmer n Mudryk

 

 

Edited September 19, 20232 yr by Bob stark

1 hour ago, Bob stark said:

If all we get with Enzo is control then paying 120m for him is a waste of money. 

We want Enzo to go forward so he can impact the game in final 3rd. 

So why play Enzo so high? We need a connector. We have 3 healthy one: Enzo, Sterling and palmer (raw). 

So the obvious choice is to play Palmer but no way you will play Palmer n Mudryk

 

 

I see Enzo as a young Fabregas, obviously not a direct copy but in how he can impact the game.

I get your point on impacting the game in the final 3rd but there's different ways players can do that. Enzo will work best with another creative influence ahead of him, Palmer now maybe, Carney when hes back but ultimately Nkunku when hes fit. That means that Enzo can dictate play from deeper to progress the ball but also have the opportunity (rather than the responsibility) to create when he finds himself further forward. I think of the long balls that Fabregas used to feed Costa but then also how he would arrive into space the final third later in the play. That's how I see Enzo developing.

At the moment, he's having to force it. Mudryk and Sterling would be expected to create more from running at players. Gallagher is many things but creative isn't one of them. Jackson can play off of players but isn't someone who is going to break down a defence. Its all on Enzo. This is clear from the way his performances have shifted since our injuries early this season and in pre season. 

Edited September 19, 20232 yr by Niall1905

With Enzo, we are guaranteed to tie or lose a match. Countdown before his fanboys come out and abuse me  .

He is not a 10.. why the insistence to play him there… switch with Gallagher… 

Deop one of the 3 CBs.. and play chilwell LB..