On 07/11/2017 at 11:20, icecoolguy22 said:

I watched that Carragher/Neville discussion, Neville's comment that managers who fall out with players got sacked was not valid, they got sacked because they couldn't get results on the field. He mentioned AVB, AVB was out of his league and was plain naive in his tactics, couldn't pick a team to save his own @ss. He got sacked for the result, not because he didn't pick Drogba. Same with Jose, Roman had all the patience with him until he got us couple of points off the relegation zone, kept picking his favourite non-performing players,  then he had the audacity to  claim the players betrayed him. The 3 rats story is probably made up by Jose or his agent to cover his back side. In Conte's case, as long as he's keeping us on track with the the targets ( realistic one, not winning  a triple), I reckon Roman will backup if he has to pick between Conte and Luiz, or another player for that matter.

So you don't think player power is a problem here whatsoever? 

12 hours ago, Slojo said:

So you don't think player power is a problem here whatsoever? 

Not as bad as the media made out to be, certainly not the deciding factor of the recent managers departure.

9 hours ago, icecoolguy22 said:

Not as bad as the media made out to be, certainly not the deciding factor of the recent managers departure.

We keep having sh*t second & third seasons under every manager we've had since Mourinho came, we can't just blame the managers for that. I don't care how bad AVB was, he needed to bench some of our players and when he did he got a big backlash for it. Lampard was one of them. 

Jose's 2nd stint, the players might have just been shattered, I'm not sure. But look at how the players are reacting to Conte this season, Luiz one of them, there is evidence that our players are indisciplined at this club like it or not. It needs to be sorted out, and only the board can do that by backing the manager and not the players. Not backing the manager is backing the players. 

7 minutes ago, Slojo said:

We keep having sh*t second & third seasons under every manager we've had since Mourinho came, we can't just blame the managers for that. I don't care how bad AVB was, he needed to bench some of our players and when he did he got a big backlash for it. Lampard was one of them. 

Jose's 2nd stint, the players might have just been shattered, I'm not sure. But look at how the players are reacting to Conte this season, Luiz one of them, there is evidence that our players are indisciplined at this club like it or not. It needs to be sorted out, and only the board can do that by backing the manager and not the players. Not backing the manager is backing the players. 

And all Jose's problems that caused his downfall at Chelsea and Madrid are still very much evident at United. Most of our 15/16 squad had absolutely no previous in terms of rucks with gaffers (bar JT with Rafa) nor had any real sh*tstorms since, so factoring that in means overwhelming circumstantial evidence points at Jose being the major culprit for that season. What's happening with Conte if anything makes "the case for Jose" even weaker than it already was. Antonio has shafted one popular member of the dressing room and bruised the ego off another, yet the player's seem absolutely fine going by Sunday's evidence, so for Jose to conspire to have the whole squad bar 1 in the worst form of their career beggars belief. You can make your stamp without pissing off the whole squad, something Conte knows, and Jose doesn't.

Put it this way, if both parties came to me and protested their innocence for that season, i know who ill believe.

Just now, Argo said:

And all Jose's problems that caused his downfall at Chelsea and Madrid are still very much evident at United. Most of our 15/16 squad had absolutely no previous in terms of rucks with gaffers (bar JT with Rafa) nor had any real sh*tstorms since, so factoring that in means overwhelming circumstantial evidence points at Jose being the major culprit for that season. What's happening with Conte if anything makes "the case for Jose" even weaker than it already was. Antonio has shafted one popular member of the dressing room and bruised the ego off another, yet the player's seem absolutely fine going by Sunday's evidence, so for Jose to conspire to have the whole squad bar 1 in the worst form of their career beggars belief. You can make your stamp without pissing off the whole squad, something Conte knows, and Jose doesn't.

Put it this way, if both parties came to me and protested their innocence for that season, i know who ill believe.

3

I don't think that's enough evidence to say Jose was the main culprit. 

It's nice to believe everything was Mourinho's fault, but I remember when results weren't going our way two seasons ago, the board did nothing about it. Jose was clearly struggling and the players simply weren't playing. We didn't play loads better when he left but we played better, there was definitely some half-arsed people in that dressing room who know for a fine fact the manager will go before they do.

And that for me lies the issue. 

I'm not saying Jose is a saint, but the manager is the manager, we employ him to manage, the players have to listen to him. I don't like the idea how so many people trust the players to override what the manager does, like how people excuse Lampard's behaviour against AVB. AVB at the time was one of the best up and coming young managers in football, he certainly wasn't great, he had a hard job. A very hard job actually, he had to start our transition, not playing the likes of Lampard was a good call because Lampard was playing terrible, although sadly we didn't get our targets in the summer.  But what people say about AVB is hindsight at best, at the time he had a hard job, look what happened when Di Matteo came in, the exact same players turned world-class overnight, then went back to sh*t the following season. This is the recurring pattern at Chelsea and we can't ignore it, if Conte does get the sack this season or the next I can bet these questions will arise again. 

 

15 hours ago, Slojo said:

We keep having sh*t second & third seasons under every manager we've had since Mourinho came, we can't just blame the managers for that. I don't care how bad AVB was, he needed to bench some of our players and when he did he got a big backlash for it. Lampard was one of them. 

Jose's 2nd stint, the players might have just been shattered, I'm not sure. But look at how the players are reacting to Conte this season, Luiz one of them, there is evidence that our players are indisciplined at this club like it or not. It needs to be sorted out, and only the board can do that by backing the manager and not the players. Not backing the manager is backing the players. 

We aren't going to reach an agreement on this. I'm not saying our players are saints, far from it most of them  probably got huge egos and arrogance, which is what players need to succeed at the top level. The manager's job is to win games and work with players, which is something AVB was completely out of depth. It's obvious the best players at the time were Lampard, Cole, Drogba etc, why not get them on his side? None of them had a problem from the past, of course they'd have a bit of doubt about a manager who's around their age and never had real professional experience, it's up to AVB to work with them and get the best out of them. We won the CL after his sacking because DM immediately restored the core players, it's not rocket science. AVB repeated the same story at Spurs, I didn't say anyone complain about players revolt there. Enough said about Jose, granted he wasn't happy with the lack of signings, he did sign Falcao, can't blame nobody else for that. As soon as the season kicked off, he started to pick fight with everyone from the team doctor to media, opposition managers, board and his own players. It was madness, Roman gave him every chance to stay on, but he just couldn't wait to get himself sacked.

19 hours ago, Slojo said:

I don't think that's enough evidence to say Jose was the main culprit. 

It's nice to believe everything was Mourinho's fault, but I remember when results weren't going our way two seasons ago, the board did nothing about it. Jose was clearly struggling and the players simply weren't playing. We didn't play loads better when he left but we played better, there was definitely some half-arsed people in that dressing room who know for a fine fact the manager will go before they do.

Well if it was the other way round and Mourinho had no previous but half the squad did, every man and his dog would say that it's enough proof it was all the players and not his fault. I went to a few of the games in that period and the problem was, most of the squad were knackered mentally, like a car that's rapidly running our of fuel (and for someone who has suffered in that regard on a few occasion's it's easy to spot) and all the circumstantial evidence points to Jose's behaviour being the reason behind it.

19 hours ago, Slojo said:

I'm not saying Jose is a saint, but the manager is the manager, we employ him to manage, the players have to listen to him. I don't like the idea how so many people trust the players to override what the manager does, like how people excuse Lampard's behaviour against AVB. AVB at the time was one of the best up and coming young managers in football, he certainly wasn't great, he had a hard job. A very hard job actually, he had to start our transition, not playing the likes of Lampard was a good call because Lampard was playing terrible, although sadly we didn't get our targets in the summer.

I think it's a bit of a myth Lampard got pissed off because of lack of playing time under AVB. Firstly because Cole played every match when fit as was just as pissed off with Andre, and secondly Robbie, Rafa and Jose all subjected him to the same rotation policy and there wasn't a murmur about any discontent from his angle.

But back to the main point of this, surely there has to be some sort of middle ground. How much can the manager get away with unchallenged? Should the players have just sat there and accepted Scolari and AVB running the squad and club to the ground? And as i alluded too a few days ago, if our next manager is a narcissistic bully who picks on a few of the younger players to the point they develop mental health issues or worse, would you expect or want the likes of Cesar, Cesc, Cahill and Pedro to just stand around and do nothing because he's "the boss"? 

Also starting the transition bit i would agree if he actually did start our transition.

19 hours ago, Slojo said:

But what people say about AVB is hindsight at best, at the time he had a hard job, look what happened when Di Matteo came in, the exact same players turned world-class overnight, then went back to sh*t the following season. This is the recurring pattern at Chelsea and we can't ignore it, if Conte does get the sack this season or the next I can bet these questions will arise again. 

Did that really happen? I mean yes Robbie rallied the troops in the cups but in the league, there wasn't actually any improvement to what we saw under AVB, if anything we were worse.

Player power - always a better decision to sack the manager from an economic perspective, players' registrations literally cost a kings ransom nowadays so ultimately are better assets to clubs than even than the  top managers, the days of Fergie s-canning a bunch of untouchable MU players are over, the same principal is at work at CFC the tipping point being an unabated run of poor results leading to a media driven crisis, the 1st team is a long way off that point currently (4th in prem, alive in 2 other cup comps) so the AC/ DL  spat is not currently a factor, just like last January with the AC/ DC spat - club was flying high, Costa fell into line, expect Luiz to do the same.

7 hours ago, Argo said:

Well if it was the other way round and Mourinho had no previous but half the squad did, every man and his dog would say that it's enough proof it was all the players and not his fault. I went to a few of the games in that period and the problem was, most of the squad were knackered mentally, like a car that's rapidly running our of fuel (and for someone who has suffered in that regard on a few occasion's it's easy to spot) and all the circumstantial evidence points to Jose's behaviour being the reason behind it.

I think it's a bit of a myth Lampard got pissed off because of lack of playing time under AVB. Firstly because Cole played every match when fit as was just as pissed off with Andre, and secondly Robbie, Rafa and Jose all subjected him to the same rotation policy and there wasn't a murmur about any discontent from his angle.

But back to the main point of this, surely there has to be some sort of middle ground. How much can the manager get away with unchallenged? Should the players have just sat there and accepted Scolari and AVB running the squad and club to the ground? And as i alluded too a few days ago, if our next manager is a narcissistic bully who picks on a few of the younger players to the point they develop mental health issues or worse, would you expect or want the likes of Cesar, Cesc, Cahill and Pedro to just stand around and do nothing because he's "the boss"? 

Also starting the transition bit i would agree if he actually did start our transition.

Did that really happen? I mean yes Robbie rallied the troops in the cups but in the league, there wasn't actually any improvement to what we saw under AVB, if anything we were worse.

Argo we came back against a very very good Napoli and scored 4 past them, we beat Spurs 5-1 and Barcelona 1-0 in the same bloody week, don't act like we didn't significantly improve under Di Matteo when AVB went. 

 

And it's not a myth, Lampard has even admitted he didn't like AVB or working under him because of the lack of starts he had when AVB was the manager. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2106492/Frank-Lampard-reveals-split-Andre-Villas-Boas.html

He even said in an interview after when he was signing shirts about Di Matteo "Well at least this one plays me" having a pop at AVB. When we all know far well Lampard was playing terribly for 2 seasons. Then he became brilliant overnight as soon as Di Matteo came in. Also, I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be a middle ground, but where is your case for it? Because it seems like everything is the manager's fault. The players should be professional and take it up with the board, not say things to the press or dramatically stop performing. I concede that I don't know truthfully what happened under Mourinho, but there was definitely better performances when he left, not a great deal and not so much with Hazard but he was a bit better. Jose didn't rotate the team years ago and they were fine, they're professional footballers, I understand the sport is faster paced. So yes it is a factor, but they did play better when Jose left camp, so there were definitely some half-arsed people in that dressing room who were happy enough to lose games to get him gone. 

Also yes, the manager is the manager, he's hired that role, how can he manage when we will support the players over him. 

 

12 hours ago, icecoolguy22 said:

We aren't going to reach an agreement on this. I'm not saying our players are saints, far from it most of them  probably got huge egos and arrogance, which is what players need to succeed at the top level. The manager's job is to win games and work with players, which is something AVB was completely out of depth. It's obvious the best players at the time were Lampard, Cole, Drogba etc, why not get them on his side? None of them had a problem from the past, of course they'd have a bit of doubt about a manager who's around their age and never had real professional experience, it's up to AVB to work with them and get the best out of them. We won the CL after his sacking because DM immediately restored the core players, it's not rocket science. AVB repeated the same story at Spurs, I didn't say anyone complain about players revolt there. Enough said about Jose, granted he wasn't happy with the lack of signings, he did sign Falcao, can't blame nobody else for that. As soon as the season kicked off, he started to pick fight with everyone from the team doctor to media, opposition managers, board and his own players. It was madness, Roman gave him every chance to stay on, but he just couldn't wait to get himself sacked.

I know what you're saying, it's different than managing a normal day job of employees. However, dropping Lampard and Drogba was the correct thing to do, they were past their primes and they were very poor, I also think Cole was very poor 2011-2012, I don't think we ever really got that Ashley back from post-2011. But still a good player nonetheless. And that's what I'm saying with hindsight, many were excited when AVB came because he reminded us of Mourinho. This was when we badly wanted Jose to come back, AVB was pulling off wonders at Porto and looked superb at such a young age coaching, had good ideas. We desperately needed creativity and pace, yet when he came we barely signed anyone, a really bizarre season of transfers.  

And afterwards yes AVB has shown he's not a very good manager, but again hindsight, at the time he was highly rated. I just don't agree with the notion that players should just stop playing for the manager because they don't like him. I can bet a lot of players agree with Luiz about Conte's training methods but they're doing it anyway, that's a good sign, it's what they're supposed to do. 

 

7 hours ago, General said:

Player power - always a better decision to sack the manager from an economic perspective, players' registrations literally cost a kings ransom nowadays so ultimately are better assets to clubs than even than the  top managers, the days of Fergie s-canning a bunch of untouchable MU players are over, the same principal is at work at CFC the tipping point being an unabated run of poor results leading to a media driven crisis, the 1st team is a long way off that point currently (4th in prem, alive in 2 other cup comps) so the AC/ DL  spat is not currently a factor, just like last January with the AC/ DC spat - club was flying high, Costa fell into line, expect Luiz to do the same.

Well, no doubt about that, the game has changed, but giving in to player power means we won't have a manager for longer than 2-3 years, you've seen how it is at Real Madrid. That's been the case for years, they've had 2 really good years under Zidane, now the same players are playing like sh*t, for probably the same whatever reason they did it for the past managers. Is that really a winning formulae for a club who can't spend as much as Madrid? Or attract the targets they do? We need to get more discipline now even if it means we might lose some players. I think Luiz is a world-class player but it's worth getting rid of him if he's going to keep being a prick. 

Today was another illustration of how poor a summer window we had. We came into the new season unprepared,missing out on our primary targets. Result is that our title defence has never really got started and fourth place is probably our goal now. The January window approaches and we really need to recruit players for the positions we missed out on in the summer. It is notoriously hard to sign quality in this window but with it being a world cup season and a shortened summer transfer window for Premier League clubs can we afford to show such limited ambition in the recruitment department if we are to retain the 'jewel in our crown' Hazard?

10 minutes ago, charierre said:

Today was another illustration of how poor a summer window we had.

Doesn't justify our manager getting his pants pulled down by Moyes.

5 hours ago, Argo said:

Doesn't justify our manager getting his pants pulled down by Moyes.

And Hodgson

I remember complaining in here and on this forum in general about the board back in the summer and having a lot of fans on here attack me and accuse me of a lot of things, implying I wasn't a "real" fan and we were the reigning champions, etc etc. I wonder what those same fans think right now. I hate to have been proven right but we're right where I knew we'd be unfortunately. Maybe learn to be a bit more objective in your thinking next time? Unless of course you still think we have the "best executives in football" and everything's still nice and dandy upstairs.

You make it appear as though we are the only club in the history of football who  have not provided the coach with the players/ funds that he wanted.

All fans want their clubs to buy the best players, all coaches want the same ( Wenger excluded who spends Arsenals cash like it was his own)

Nor are we the first team ever to have spent cash on iffy signings- it's a bit like buying a second hand motor- there's no guarantees.

If your unhappy with the board, that also means your unhappy with Roman- they are his lapdogs. 

Reality check- reigning champs, 3rd in league, in two cups yet there's no pleasing some " fans"

1 hour ago, Barrettinator said:

I remember complaining in here and on this forum in general about the board back in the summer and having a lot of fans on here attack me and accuse me of a lot of things, implying I wasn't a "real" fan and we were the reigning champions, etc etc. I wonder what those same fans think right now. I hate to have been proven right but we're right where I knew we'd be unfortunately. Maybe learn to be a bit more objective in your thinking next time? Unless of course you still think we have the "best executives in football" and everything's still nice and dandy upstairs.

 

Third biggest spenders in the league this season.

Third in the table.

Equal best defence in the league.

Fifth most goals scored in the league.

 

From the above stats, you can see we are where we should be £ for £.

But if we could just get our attack sorted and score a few more goals we could be boxing above our weight again.

1 hour ago, Barrettinator said:

I remember complaining in here and on this forum in general about the board back in the summer and having a lot of fans on here attack me and accuse me of a lot of things, implying I wasn't a "real" fan and we were the reigning champions, etc etc. I wonder what those same fans think right now. I hate to have been proven right but we're right where I knew we'd be unfortunately. Maybe learn to be a bit more objective in your thinking next time? Unless of course you still think we have the "best executives in football" and everything's still nice and dandy upstairs.

If we had a crystal ball in August and could see into the future to read this post, I would be fearful our position would be a lot worse than it currently is. So much doom and gloom in that post - you would think our season is over.

Yes, City will take our title but I raise my hat to them. They will set all sorts of records this year and have played some of the best football ever seen in most of our lifetimes. 

But we are still in the FA Cup and Champions League. We didn't miss out on the League Cup final by a lot either. Lot's to play for in the rest of the season! 

7 hours ago, Nickcook26 said:

If we had a crystal ball in August and could see into the future to read this post, I would be fearful our position would be a lot worse than it currently is. So much doom and gloom in that post - you would think our season is over.

Yes, City will take our title but I raise my hat to them. They will set all sorts of records this year and have played some of the best football ever seen in most of our lifetimes. 

But we are still in the FA Cup and Champions League. We didn't miss out on the League Cup final by a lot either. Lot's to play for in the rest of the season! 

My point is and has always been that it would be a massive shame for us to regress to the point Arsenal have been in for years now. Top club but not really doing much of note. 

7 hours ago, coco said:

 

Third biggest spenders in the league this season.

Third in the table.

Equal best defence in the league.

Fifth most goals scored in the league.

 

From the above stats, you can see we are where we should be £ for £.

But if we could just get our attack sorted and score a few more goals we could be boxing above our weight again.

The market requires big spending these days. I get your point but it leaves a bad taste knowing we were up there with the very best and could beat the Barcas and Bayerns of football when we had the old guard in their prime but now we seem to be a team overly reliant on Hazard and not much world class quality elsewhere apart from Courtois. We've had Hazard for 6 years now and I can't help but think we really could and should have won more with him. I'm actually worried about playing Barca next month. If Conte can consistently get his arse handed to him by Le Voyeur, then I don't have much hope that we can knock Barca out, especially in the form they're in at the moment. We may end the season trophyless. Hopefully not.

5 hours ago, Barrettinator said:

My point is and has always been that it would be a massive shame for us to regress to the point Arsenal have been in for years now. Top club but not really doing much of note. 

Sorry mate but to compare us with Arsenal is just laughable. Thank god our board don't run our club in the same way they are run (most expensive season ticket, accepting failure of the manager, no CL football, selling of star players).

6 hours ago, Barrettinator said:

The market requires big spending these days. I get your point but it leaves a bad taste knowing we were up there with the very best and could beat the Barcas and Bayerns of football when we had the old guard in their prime but now we seem to be a team overly reliant on Hazard and not much world class quality elsewhere apart from Courtois. We've had Hazard for 6 years now and I can't help but think we really could and should have won more with him. I'm actually worried about playing Barca next month. If Conte can consistently get his arse handed to him by Le Voyeur, then I don't have much hope that we can knock Barca out, especially in the form they're in at the moment. We may end the season trophyless. Hopefully not.

No disrespect but it appears as if the only reason you support Chelsea is so you can celebrate silverware at the end of the season.

Reflected glory?

The last year has been one of the most underwhelming transfer situations i remember for a while. Imo we have spent a sh*t ton of money and managed to weaken the overall starting 11. 

Morata is nowhere near as good as Costa. 

The manager lost the support of the greatest CB in the league last year, thank god we had Andreas to come in and replace him.

Bakayoko/Barkley/Drinkwater aren't an upgrade over Matic, which is saying a lot when Matic was largely average last season.

We haven't upgraded the RW position when we should have done. 

We haven't upgraded at wing back when we should have.

We're now bringing in ageing Arsenal players, for a manager that won't even be here in little over a year, so that Arsenal can go out and spend £60m on another fantastic striker. 

City are top of the league and still look to improve their starting 11 with Laporte and rumours for Mahrez. We win the league and spend on absolute sh*te. Embarrassing really, but i'm sure people will just say that we're 3rd and shouldn't be so ungrateful.

14 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

The last year has been one of the most underwhelming transfer situations i remember for a while. Imo we have spent a sh*t ton of money and managed to weaken the overall starting 11. 

Morata is nowhere near as good as Costa. 

The manager lost the support of the greatest CB in the league last year, thank god we had Andreas to come in and replace him.

Bakayoko/Barkley/Drinkwater aren't an upgrade over Matic, which is saying a lot when Matic was largely average last season.

We haven't upgraded the RW position when we should have done. 

We haven't upgraded at wing back when we should have.

We're now bringing in ageing Arsenal players, for a manager that won't even be here in little over a year, so that Arsenal can go out and spend £60m on another fantastic striker. 

City are top of the league and still look to improve their starting 11 with Laporte and rumours for Mahrez. We win the league and spend on absolute sh*te. Embarrassing really, but i'm sure people will just say that we're 3rd and shouldn't be so ungrateful.

That's football. You've got to take the rough with the smooth.

The powers that be are under no obligation to compete financially with the Man City's of this world. Our comparitive austerity in transfer dealings has been " a train coming down the track" for many years, ever since it was announced that the club were to become self financing and not rely on a bail out from the owner year on year. Why the big surprise that this is now the case?

Wake up call time for the spoilt brats amongst our support, who only decided to follow CFC because we were outspending everyone else and cleaning up.

 

3 hours ago, Ewell CFC said:

That's football. You've got to take the rough with the smooth.

The powers that be are under no obligation to compete financially with the Man City's of this world. Our comparitive austerity in transfer dealings has been " a train coming down the track" for many years, ever since it was announced that the club were to become self financing and not rely on a bail out from the owner year on year. Why the big surprise that this is now the case?

Wake up call time for the spoilt brats amongst our support, who only decided to follow CFC because we were outspending everyone else and cleaning up.

 

We're still outspending everyone, we're just spending it on absolute sh*te. £250m this year and who have we bought that is an instant upgrade? 

Wanting the best for your team isn't being a spoilt brat. Just because someone expects more, doesn't make them any less or more of a fan. 

Complaining about a team in 3rd position in the league and still in the CL is definitely one of life's luxuries.