When Jorginho starts in the PL ; won 8 drawn 4 lost 1

When Kante starts in the PL : won 7 drawn 6 lost 5

When they both start : won 3 drawn 3 lost 1

When Jorginho starts with Kovacic : won 5 drawn 1 lost 0

When Jorginho starts with Kante : won 3 drawn 3 lost 0

When all three started: won 0 drawn 0 lost 1

When Kante starts without Jorginho: won 4 drawn 3 lost 4

Edited February 21, 20215 yr by Sexyfootball

1 hour ago, Sexyfootball said:

Jorginho is the first name on the team sheet in midfield if you want to maximise your chances of winning the game.

And his best partner in a midfield pair is Kovacic, who is much better as the box to box, linking the play with the attack than Kante is ...

You just have to look at the results for the various combinations. It's a very clear conclusion !

https://www.theshedend.com/topic/29613-welcome-n’golo-kante/page/115/#comments

Time does pass so quickly and we all forget things. Strange to read the comments from November and early December. Seems like yesterday.

I do struggle to wrap my head round the idea that you should play a lesser player over a better player, because the lesser player makes another player, a better player. 

Think I got that right. Seems daft though. I just thought you picked your best players.

5 minutes ago, just said:

I do struggle to wrap my head round the idea that you should play a lesser player over a better player, 

I similarly struggle with the idea of playing a player based on what they use to be and/or reputation. Three times last season shoe horning Kante back in stunted our momentum.

22 minutes ago, just said:

https://www.theshedend.com/topic/29613-welcome-n’golo-kante/page/115/#comments

Time does pass so quickly and we all forget things. Strange to read the comments from November and early December. Seems like yesterday.

I do struggle to wrap my head round the idea that you should play a lesser player over a better player, because the lesser player makes another player, a better player. 

Think I got that right. Seems daft though. I just thought you picked your best players.

November and early December is an embarrassment to a few, given what was said three weeks later.

Just now, Argo said:

I similarly struggle with the idea of playing a player based on what they use to be and/or reputation. Three times last season shoe horning Kante back in stunted our momentum.

Used to be? Back in November and December? Did you bother reading the thread link? 

You thought Kante had a great first half yesterday. I agree with you Argo, he did. Absolutely ran the show. He was having games in November and December playing at that level, as evidenced in the opinions from numerous posters.

You keep saying Kante is not the player he was. Surely you can see parallels with Jorginho too, no? He had a good start under Sarri, then got found out by the EPL and has never looked like a top class player since. When did he last have a 30 minutes like Kante yesterday? Is he finished too? Not the player he was in Italy? After all he's 29 the same age as Kante. Perhaps they're both finished?

7 minutes ago, just said:

Perhaps they're both finished?

You might have a point there ... if it was my choice I'd have Gilmour playing more, alongside Mount in the pivot 🙂

21 minutes ago, charierre said:

November and early December is an embarrassment to a few, given what was said three weeks later.

Slojo was even talking about Kante as a contender for POTY.

https://www.theshedend.com/topic/29613-welcome-n’golo-kante/page/116/#comments

 

24 minutes ago, just said:

Used to be? Back in November and December? Did you bother reading the thread link? 

You thought Kante had a great first half yesterday. I agree with you Argo, he did. Absolutely ran the show. He was having games in November and December playing at that level, as evidenced in the opinions from numerous posters.

You keep saying Kante is not the player he was. Surely you can see parallels with Jorginho too, no? He had a good start under Sarri, then got found out by the EPL and has never looked like a top class player since. When did he last have a 30 minutes like Kante yesterday? Is he finished too? Not the player he was in Italy? After all he's 29 the same age as Kante. Perhaps they're both finished?

The parralel I do see (and the one that counts above all others) is that the Jorginho/Kova(sometimes Barkley in last season's case)/Mount midfield has been the catalyst for our best run for two season's in a row and that almost immediately after breaking it up we start dropping points again. Then there was the two Scouse games where we looked to have broke a ceiling with the Gilmour/Barkley/Mount midfield being the catalyst, did we build on that? No, Kante shoehorned back in and 2 of those 3 dropped.

And you're right back in November he was on form and had no issue seeing him in the side at that point because he was actually there on merit. When he walzed back in during those times I've mentioned above that wasn't the case.

Edited February 21, 20215 yr by Argo

We are a very split camp on Jorginho no doubt and he certainly has his limitations. Imo we missed him yesterday. He probably fouls the on loan scouser and stops that goal.

3 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

We are a very split camp on Jorginho no doubt and he certainly has his limitations. Imo we missed him yesterday. He probably fouls the on loan scouser and stops that goal.

axman I think he sprints back and muscles Minamino off the ball, then goes on a mazy to the halfway line, sees the keeper of his line, shoots and scores.

Probably.

1 minute ago, just said:

axman I think he sprints back and muscles Minamino off the ball, then goes on a mazy to the halfway line, sees the keeper of his line, shoots and scores.

Probably.

Ah come on Just I know you dont rate him but you have to admit Jorgi is good at tactical fouls lol.

1 minute ago, axman2526 said:

Ah come on Just I know you dont rate him but you have to admit Jorgi is good at tactical fouls lol.

If he is close enough to the player to commit the foul, I agree. Often, he isn't.

 

Just now, axman2526 said:

Ah come on Just I know you dont rate him but you have to admit Jorgi is good at tactical fouls lol.

When he can get near a player that is. He is so one-paced, more often than not they glide past him (that world class footballer John Fleck of Sheff Utd did it a few times in the recent game!)

Contrary to the popular opinion that Jorginho is a bad defensive player - he has shown in multiple seasons that he can retain possession keep the ball simply by his positioning and read of the game, this has also shown to be a good tool for successful press as he has had games where he pressed really good too. It's actually far more effective to rely on possession and on good positioning to win the ball back, it doesn't look impressive but tactically that's what every manager would prefer, less drama more stability.

Jorginho doesn't need to make a superb tackle in order to retain possession like Kante that has been relying on his pace and work rate.

Physically speaking Kante has been bullied by several players in the PL this season and it's safe to say that he has had errors leading to goal - so it's fair to say that the experiment of Kante "protecting the backline" hasn't really worked. On top of that I have seen comments suggesting that we should put a young Gilmour into the fire just so that Jorginho doesn't play but Gilmour lacks the experience and he isn't really offer a physical presence which is why even Lampard in the last games put Gilmour to play in a more advanced role and not at the base of the midfield, Gilmour also isn't a tall player either.

Now someone will argue how Gilmour has the skill like Kovacic well he might have but you can't have two of the same players in midfield that do similar things one must cover for the other and this is why Jorginho and Kovacic are offering more stability than any other combination. I'm not even sure if we had more than 1-2 shots on target with Kante-Gilmour against Barnsley that we won narrowly only, teams are fine to let Kante pass around a bit since it's known that he hasn't made a single through ball this season + whole last season - When we had Jorginho at the base of the midfield we finished top 3, when Lampard put Kante there in due time he got sacked, so lesson learned you must have someone that can pass and hold on to the possession in some way.

I would like to see Tuchel gamble a bit and play a 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-1-1, it's he tries it as soon as possible or we stick to the back 3 through all of these tight fixtures since there is no time to figure anything else but this what we have been using. I'm up for Mount playing more deeper or Kante playing more forward and not at the base of the midfield - for Lampard Kante came on as a sub in a couple of games where he played more forward and there is where he managed to get assists, Sarri knew that Kante needs the freedom to run and read the game and Tuchel has also said it.

In conclusion, we don't really have a DM that has the discipline to sit back part and organize the team part from Jorginho - Kovacic and Kante love to roam and it looks like Gilmour is to play the Kovacic role since he's good with the ball in his feet.

 

If we had potent on form fwds like City or Liverpool (not currently) I'm convinced these 3 could play together. We got one game earlier in the season that we didn't properly get a chance to see because we played the 2nd half with 10 men.

Let's not forget last season against city that midfield demolished them, I think we lost that game but we had more possession and played well (eventually getting the win for the reverse fixture).

If Kovacic could play in a 3 like how he plays in a 2 he would in theory have less defensive responsibility with Jorgeeh sitting in front of the def and Kante running up and down. I would hope these would be ideal conditions for him to become the deeper playmaker in the team like as a double 6. 

4 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

When Jorginho starts in the PL ; won 8 drawn 4 lost 1

When Kante starts in the PL : won 7 drawn 6 lost 5

When they both start : won 3 drawn 3 lost 1

When Jorginho starts with Kovacic : won 5 drawn 1 lost 0

When Jorginho starts with Kante : won 3 drawn 3 lost 0

When all three started: won 0 drawn 0 lost 1

When Kante starts without Jorginho: won 4 drawn 3 lost 4

Well that's the tactics done for the season, if only team performances relied on 2 players and nothing to do with the opposition and the rest of the team.

2 hours ago, Nibs said:

When he can get near a player that is. He is so one-paced, more often than not they glide past him (that world class footballer John Fleck of Sheff Utd did it a few times in the recent game!)

Now now as someone who watches a fair bit of the Blades John Fleck is a pretty good player...though man are Sheff United ever a disappointment this season. Honestly no fans, Frank sacked, our abysmal attacking play the past few months and my dads blades being as sharp as a scousers whit as made this a painful season lol...

2 hours ago, just said:

If he is close enough to the player to commit the foul, I agree. Often, he isn't.

 

Now I do have to know which of the following causes you to have more kittens Just:

 

1. Jorginho,  in the middle of our pitch.

 

OR

 

2. David Luiz, in a CB pair for us?

 

🤪

3 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Now I do have to know which of the following causes you to have more kittens Just:

 

1. Jorginho,  in the middle of our pitch.

 

OR

 

2. David Luiz, in a CB pair for us?

 

🤪

He can't think jorgeeh is that bad can he?! 😭😭

Edited February 22, 20215 yr by LongtimerLurker

There's really nothing worse than Jorginho debates on this forum, and the worst part is, it's not even because of Gol15. 

23 minutes ago, Slojo said:

There's really nothing worse than Jorginho debates on this forum, and the worst part is, it's not even because of Gol15. 

Couldn’t disagree more Slojo. There’s nothing BETTER than the Jorginho debates

1 hour ago, Slojo said:

There's really nothing worse than Jorginho debates on this forum, and the worst part is, it's not even because of Gol15. 

Com'on slojo, keep up with the pace.

https://www.goal.com/en/news/tuchel-kantes-ball-winning-strengths-not-used-well-enough-by/1hktspsa28j0d11q9ubbqon1mq

10 minutes ago, just said:

Com'on slojo, keep up with the pace.

https://www.goal.com/en/news/tuchel-kantes-ball-winning-strengths-not-used-well-enough-by/1hktspsa28j0d11q9ubbqon1mq

Well he's Tommy Tactics according to you, so which is it? 

18 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Well he's Tommy Tactics according to you, so which is it? 

Oh definitely Tommy Tactics. Nice to see he appreciated Kante's attacking influence yesterday though.

8 hours ago, Dean said:

Couldn’t disagree more Slojo. There’s nothing BETTER than the Jorginho debates

I don't really see a debate going on anymore.

We lost 1 game with him in the starting lineup whole season long, maybe that's why the same things have been repeated over and over since the agenda people can't come up with anything new - you know it doesn't work anymore when already debunked arguments keep reappearing, when the response is always the same even when we win games then you know that there is no real debate going on no matter how much the haters are trying to hide their bias.