20 minutes ago, Argo said:

No, Thiago Silva in his Milan and early PSG days or Carvalho in his prime with us to name two examples. Read the play, anticipate chances to get infront of the striker and make an interception which not only gets possession back but can often be a useful tool on the counter (case in point of the top of my head Joe Cole's goal vs Liverpool in the UCL, where Ricky's sharp thinking set off a chain of events that led to the goal).

That could quite easily describe Luiz's performance in Munich aswell.

Actually Bonucci has/had a reputation for being a very rash defender, and it came to the fore most when he went to Milan for a season.

Strangely enough the way him and Chilleni compliment eachother reminds me similarly to how Thiago and Luiz did for the Brazil national team.

We are making progress here Argo. I'm in agreement to....... a degree. But again those variables need to be considered.

Starting with, do either Bonucci and Chiellini have the foot speed to match Silva in his Milan days or Carvalho in his days in our back line? If the Italian centre-halves ventured out of position into Jorginho's territory, and they were turned, or mis-timed the challenge, would it be likely they would have the pace and speed to recover positioning and get a second bite? Would Jorginho be able to cover them out of position? Hhmm.  In which case would it be recommended that they "follow" (Sindre's word), a specific opponent or the ball as a pre-instructed tactic? For me the answer is absolutely not.

1 hour ago, just said:

You mean like David Luiz regularly used to do? Forget the bigger picture, ignore what's happening around you? Surrender your positioning and defensive shape to follow the ball \ man?

Well, I'm fairly certain that wouldn't have been Mancini's instructions to his centre-halves.

I'm obviously struggling under the misapprehension that the principal role of a "holding" midfielder was to screen and protect that space? Stop your opponent from controlling that area and getting at your back line?

Bonucci and Chiellini were both excellent last night in the face of consistent pressure in and around their box. They have been all tournament. They are as different to David Luiz as you can get, (and if you're Italian that is something to be thankful for),  tremendous centre-backs.

That's not an argument. It's like saying no one should shoot the ball since Kovacic is poor at it.

Jorginho did his job well but can't cover two players at the same time. If Bonucci & Chiellini had to stay as far back as they usually did then Mancini would have had to go with a different tactic, But if their midfield and attack is to press high then their back four damn sure needs to do the same thing.
Otherwise you'll have what we often saw under Lampard here with us. Absolutely massive gaps between midfield and defence and that's excactly why Olmo had such a good game yesterday.

Bonucci & Chiellini even tried a few times which kind of negate your point about it being a stupid thing to do. The problem however was that they were made to look like fools by Olmo first and then Morata too when he came on.

The whole point is that Jorginho is trying to cover 2 players at the same time

But sure let's blame him for the goal now and ignore the reality...

 

3 minutes ago, Sindre said:

That's not an argument. It's like saying no one should shoot the ball since Kovacic is poor at it.

Jorginho did his job well but can't cover two players at the same time. If Bonucci & Chiellini had to stay as far back as they usually did then Mancini would have had to go with a different tactic, But if their midfield and attack is to press high then their back four damn sure needs to do the same thing.
Otherwise you'll have what we often saw under Lampard here with us. Absolutely massive gaps between midfield and defence and that's excactly why Olmo had such a good game yesterday.

Bonucci & Chiellini even tried a few times which kind of negate your point about it being a stupid thing to do. The problem however was that they were made to look like fools by Olmo first and then Morata too when he came on.

Obviously Jorghino must cover 2 players and the opposition striker, I mean that's the main argument against him now isn't it? Let's ignore that Laporte shut down Immobile pretty well but that Chiellini and Bonucci didn't really shut down Morata and Olmo, that's also Jorginho's fault. Also why does Barella even need to play when Jorginho should cover 2+ players, he gets a free pass while Jorginho that is trying to recover from Rodri to Morata is 100% at fault for the goal.

BTW Morata has always been a great super-sub, the problem with him is something else, Conte thought that he could make him the first striker to lead the attack but that didn't work out.

5 hours ago, Argo said:

I found it annoying at first but I'm kind of catching the bug myself, I mean obviously I know he's not perfect infact I'm not even against replacing him if we find a suitable player (no not Declan Rice) but the sheer amount of excuses being rolled out to play him down is getting ridiculous. He's the only regular on both the Chelsea and Italy sides on their (convincing) runs to European finals but it's being portrayed as just a coincidence/his teammates are carrying him.

I don't even disagree with some of the assessments of his weaknesses but the mental gymnastics to downplay anything good he does (one of which playing a key role in getting us the second biggest trophy in football, maybe first given the decline of international football) doesn't sit great with me.

It's getting to the "Mount's a teachers pet" and "Sarri's playing Hudson Odoi under duress" levels.

And this is the absolute delusion that's making Gol (and you) argue continuously against a nonexistent oppostion.

"Jorginho scored a fantastic penalty under pressure but did not have greatest game yesterday" Gol - "Jorginho is the greatest, how can you play him down, he made 8 interceptions, blah, blah"

"Jorginho is an excellent player but struggles against deep lying defenses" Gol - "Jorginho is the greatest, how can you play him down, he is in 2 finals, blah, blah"

"Nothing" Gol - "Jorginho is the greatest, you all are haters, I was right, blah, blah"

Most on the forum actually like Jorginho but understand his strengths and limitations and realize that we might need a midfield of a different profile if we want to win the league. If you go on like this, you'll soon make people actually hate a very likeable character and footballer.

To really know how a player can be downplayed, check the Mikel threads 😉

52 minutes ago, just said:

We are making progress here Argo. I'm in agreement to....... a degree. But again those variables need to be considered.

Starting with, do either Bonucci and Chiellini have the foot speed to match Silva in his Milan days or Carvalho in his days in our back line? If the Italian centre-halves ventured out of position into Jorginho's territory, and they were turned, or mis-timed the challenge, would it be likely they would have the pace and speed to recover positioning and get a second bite? Would Jorginho be able to cover them out of position? Hhmm.  In which case would it be recommended that they "follow" (Sindre's word), a specific opponent or the ball as a pre-instructed tactic? For me the answer is absolutely not.

Have a look at the following pictures. See what I mean? Chiellini or Bonucci in midfield areas in all of them (I have more examples if you want them)

So basically Mancini had the right idea (for the CB's to follow Olmo) but they could not do a good enough job,

So your "if they had ventured out of position" is exactly what happened.

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 20215 yr by Sindre

43 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Obviously Jorghino must cover 2 players and the opposition striker, I mean that's the main argument against him now isn't it? Let's ignore that Laporte shut down Immobile pretty well but that Chiellini and Bonucci didn't really shut down Morata and Olmo, that's also Jorginho's fault. Also why does Barella even need to play when Jorginho should cover 2+ players, he gets a free pass while Jorginho that is trying to recover from Rodri to Morata is 100% at fault for the goal.

BTW Morata has always been a great super-sub, the problem with him is something else, Conte thought that he could make him the first striker to lead the attack but that didn't work out.

I meant Pedri, not Rodri sorry.

5 hours ago, Argo said:

I found it annoying at first but I'm kind of catching the bug myself, I mean obviously I know he's not perfect infact I'm not even against replacing him if we find a suitable player (no not Declan Rice) but the sheer amount of excuses being rolled out to play him down is getting ridiculous. He's the only regular on both the Chelsea and Italy sides on their (convincing) runs to European finals but it's being portrayed as just a coincidence/his teammates are carrying him.

I don't even disagree with some of the assessments of his weaknesses but the mental gymnastics to downplay anything good he does (one of which playing a key role in getting us the second biggest trophy in football, maybe first given the decline of international football) doesn't sit great with me.

It's getting to the "Mount's a teachers pet" and "Sarri's playing Hudson Odoi under duress" levels.

I completely agree with most of this. After winning the Champions League theres no way any of our players should be getting any stick and as Ive said before on this thread, imagine Jorginho winning the Champions League and coming on here to see a lot of criticism. I wouldnt get rid of Jorgi, hes more than capable of being a very good squad player. However, if theres anyone out of the starting 11 that we could and should improve on, it is him. When it goes bad in games for him, it goes very bad. There have been times when teams completely bypass him like he isnt there. It couldnt hurt to look at a top class sitting midfielder, not to kick Jorgi out, but to provide competition and be an upgrade on an already decent player.

5 hours ago, RMH said:

Cringey is Jorginho not having a very good game and having to read things like "Class of his own tonight. Without meaning to offend people... If you cannot see how gifted he is as a player then for me you simply don't understand football." "Jorginho had 8 ball recoveries and 7 interceptions... " etc Most critics came here to mention how well he took his penalty and then the Jorginho lovers came here to render homage to the greatest of them all. If someone is showing any balance in here, it's the critics, who indicated that he was ineffective (as he was) but took his penalty superbly. I think that's more balanced view of his game last night than saying that he was a class above all in last night's match.

Youve hit the nail on the head. If you read all of @Gol15 posts since the match, you would assume he is our best player, was solely responsible for us winning the Champions League and has the best stats for everything, and thats not even me exaggerating. Jorginho didnt have the best game and no amount of stats can tell me otherwise because i know what i saw with my own eyes.  Neither did most of the other Italian mids, but I was so happy for him the way he scored that winning penalty because hes one of us. Its just very hard to stomach that the majority of us can see  a good player whos had a very good season, but we also know we can and should  definately upgrade the position if we can this summer.

48 minutes ago, ashwin said:

And this is the absolute delusion that's making Gol (and you) argue continuously against a nonexistent oppostion.

"Jorginho scored a fantastic penalty under pressure but did not have greatest game yesterday" Gol - "Jorginho is the greatest, how can you play him down, he made 8 interceptions, blah, blah"

"Jorginho is an excellent player but struggles against deep lying defenses" Gol - "Jorginho is the greatest, how can you play him down, he is in 2 finals, blah, blah"

"Nothing" Gol - "Jorginho is the greatest, you all are haters, I was right, blah, blah"

Most on the forum actually like Jorginho but understand his strengths and limitations and realize that we might need a midfield of a different profile if we want to win the league. If you go on like this, you'll soon make people actually hate a very likeable character and footballer.

To really know how a player can be downplayed, check the Mikel threads 😉

Exactly the point I made a few hours ago. @Gol15 you say nobody says Jorginho is perfect, but Im sorry, all of your posts in the last 24 hours suggest that he is. You then keep comments like youve been proved right, youre on the right side of history etc etc.

As @ashwin is pointing out, its getting to the point that youre turning most of us against Jorginho and you cant even see it. I came on here so happy for Jorginho, and then I see your delusional posts and It puts most of us off. I think the only way is to just not entertain him anymore because you wont get a logical reponse or reply, it will just be stats thrown at you and complete denial if you say he isnt anything but the most critical player to us and our best player. When we get less of that we might actually be able to appreciate him

9 minutes ago, Oli said:

Youve hit the nail on the head. If you read all of @Gol15 posts since the match, you would assume he is our best player, was solely responsible for us winning the Champions League and has the best stats for everything, and thats not even me exaggerating. Jorginho didnt have the best game and no amount of stats can tell me otherwise because i know what i saw with my own eyes.

Or you read the most people here you would think that Jorginho is deadwood that had no impact at all at any point including our and Italy's wins, you would think that he is just lucky to be liked by everyone else but a group of Chelsea fans simply know that he's our worst player comparable to Drinkwater, this is what I saw people writing about him.

What did you see with your own eyes, Jorginho having a bad game?  OK good for you, Tuchel is probably an idiot for playing him and so is Mancini, sad that the whole world knows their names but nobody knows yours, unfair...

3 minutes ago, Oli said:

Exactly the point I made a few hours ago. @Gol15 you say nobody says Jorginho is perfect, but Im sorry, all of your posts in the last 24 hours suggest that he is. You then keep comments like youve been proved right, youre on the right side of history etc etc.

As @ashwin is pointing out, its getting to the point that youre turning most of us against Jorginho and you cant even see it. I came on here so happy for Jorginho, and then I see your delusional posts and It puts most of us off. I think the only way is to just not entertain him anymore because you wont get a logical reponse or reply, it will just be stats thrown at you and complete denial if you say he isnt anything but the most critical player to us and our best player. When we get less of that we might actually be able to appreciate him

Because for 3 years multiple people told me how stats dont matter and how Jorginho is simply not good enough, I didn't start this yesterday. Winning the CL proved something for me that you can't take away, Jorginho has been a good player for us, end of.

Now if you prefer to act as if you at this moment turned against Jorginho simply because of me, go ahead.

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

Or you read the most people here you would think that Jorginho is deadwood that had no impact at all at any point including our and Italy's wins, you would think that he is just lucky to be liked by everyone else but a group of Chelsea fans simply know that he's our worst player comparable to Drinkwater, this is what I saw people writing about him.

What did you see with your own eyes, Jorginho having a bad game?  OK good for you, 

7 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

 

 

Its posts like this that justify what I said and make you look idiotic. I said he didnt have his best game, because I saw him get bypassed quite a few times. Nowhere did i say he was bad. Secondly I agree he maybe does get a bit too much stick especially in the past, and as I said above, the irony is you are the one thats fueling that because youre in denial about just how good he is.

 

8 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Tuchel is probably an idiot for playing him and so is Mancini, sad that the whole world knows their names but nobody knows yours, unfair...

Thirdly grow up, seriously, on all my recent posts im trying to give him credit.

You can try and insult all of us fans who have an honest opinion all you want, just because we arent Tuchel or Mancini or are nobodies as you put it, but youre just making yourself look like an moron.

Anyway as i said im leaving you to it, i would have more joy talking to a brick wall.

 

14 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Or you read the most people here you would think that Jorginho is deadwood that had no impact at all at any point including our and Italy's wins, you would think that he is just lucky to be liked by everyone else but a group of Chelsea fans simply know that he's our worst player comparable to Drinkwater, this is what I saw people writing about him.

What did you see with your own eyes, Jorginho having a bad game?  OK good for you, Tuchel is probably an idiot for playing him and so is Mancini, sad that the whole world knows their names but nobody knows yours, unfair...

What on earth are you on about? Who said any of that? This is some incredible delusion 🤣

1 hour ago, Sindre said:

Have a look at the following pictures. See what I mean? Chiellini or Bonucci in midfield areas in all of them (I have more examples if you want them)

So basically Mancini had the right idea (for the CB's to follow Olmo) but they could not do a good enough job,

So your "if they had ventured out of position" is exactly what happened.

 

 

 

What are you missing here Sindre? Are any of those photos taken with Spain, in possession, anywhere near 10-15 yards of the Italian box. 10-15 yards. Jorginho "holding" territory? Even with those random photos, taken with the ball and players miles from the Italy danger area, how much space was open behind? How many other Italians were covering? How many Spanish players were in that space?

If the centre-backs get turned 35-40 yards from goal with cover behind, or much closer from goal, (back to 10-15 yard Jorginho area), with no cover, what is going to be the bigger problem? Com'on this is basic defensive principles Sindre. Knowing what you and can't do in different areas of the pitch. Strewth!

Look I give in. If you think Jorginho had a great game and Bonucci and Chiellini were pants I'm obviously not going to convince you otherwise. Knock yourself out.

10 hours ago, just said:

What are you missing here Sindre? Are any of those photos taken with Spain, in possession, anywhere near 10-15 yards of the Italian box. 10-15 yards. Jorginho "holding" territory? Even with those random photos, taken with the ball and players miles from the Italy danger area, how much space was open behind? How many other Italians were covering? How many Spanish players were in that space?

If the centre-backs get turned 35-40 yards from goal with cover behind, or much closer from goal, (back to 10-15 yard Jorginho area), with no cover, what is going to be the bigger problem? Com'on this is basic defensive principles Sindre. Knowing what you and can't do in different areas of the pitch. Strewth!

Look I give in. If you think Jorginho had a great game and Bonucci and Chiellini were pants I'm obviously not going to convince you otherwise. Knock yourself out.

We'll agree to disagree just. Have a good day!

2 hours ago, Sindre said:

We'll agree to disagree just. Have a good day!

After 151 pages, in the main of utter bollocks, sense prevails. 

47 minutes ago, charierre said:

After 151 pages, in the main of utter bollocks, sense prevails. 

I love it Charierre!  Especially enjoy debating with people who put so much emphasis on statistical analysis as alleged indisputable proof that a player is good or bad without ever giving thought to the thousands of variables involved in every 90 minutes of football, and what we actually see with our own eyes.

I haven't felt more engaged since the Fernando Torres thread!!

I think people enjoy the attention they get by being au contraire

22 hours ago, just said:

I think he would either get a restraining court order put on Gol 15 or, he might hire a hitman (sorry hit person), to shoot me. Depends who he was more worried about.

How do you take out a restraining order on yourself?

23 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

How do you take out a restraining order on yourself?

You can't, I've tried over and over again, so a 132% fail rate (now that we're talking statistics).

4 hours ago, sonic90 said:

I think people enjoy the attention they get by being au contraire

I disagree 

20 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Because for 3 years multiple people told me how stats dont matter and how Jorginho is simply not good enough, I didn't start this yesterday. Winning the CL proved something for me that you can't take away, Jorginho has been a good player for us, end of.

Now if you prefer to act as if you at this moment turned against Jorginho simply because of me, go ahead.

I am really2 curious Gol do you know what  Jorginho really provide to the team?

Why Tuchel, Sarri played him? 

I have two things to say about Jorginho. Firstly the Spanish game saw Italy play a more defensive, compact style slightly different to the possesion based football they have been playing mostly throughout the tournament.

You don't out possess Espana we all know this. So Jorginho was forced to play a more reserved role. Secondly for the doubters of Jorginho and this isn't directed at anyone on this forum or any one specific rival team.

When Italy play England, Jorginho will be on full display there is no running or hiding from it. So either he disappears and we don't really notice him, or he has one of those games where he just runs the show. He could also just have an average game. 

One way or the other though Jorginho is on the world stage now, it's impossible to ignore just how good of a footballer he is whether you like his specific style or not. The debate of whether he is a liability in midfield for us or not made for the prem is not relevant in this game. 

Make no mistake though, winning the UCL and Euros puts him in the conversation for Ballon d'or I'm not saying he should win it but, you cannot deny his presence in two title winning teams. Now of course I would love a Chelsea player to win the award but not at the expense of England winning the competition.

 

 

5 hours ago, just said:

I love it Charierre!  Especially enjoy debating with people who put so much emphasis on statistical analysis as alleged indisputable proof that a player is good or bad without ever giving thought to the thousands of variables involved in every 90 minutes of football, and what we actually see with our own eyes.

I haven't felt more engaged since the Fernando Torres thread!!

When did Torres' stats ever look good?