As Jorgi hater, imo Jorgi is playing his best football with us in the last 1 1/2 years. 

Lots of focus on other players in today's debacle. Havertz, Mount, Gallagher etc. Fair enough I suppose yes, they were all garbage. But very few comments, and none at all so far in this thread, about the "disaster class" performance delivered by J5. You'd think with his experience and alleged leadership qualities he would have been at the forefront of the midfield battle today. But no. It seems everyone has come to accept, (not before time of course), that this is what we should expect from him when teams play a high pressing game with lots of intensity, and we shouldn't be judging him on it. Ah, well. On to the next game then.

Or maybe people are finally realising there are far bigger issues in this team than Jorginho. He was definitely sh*t today but join the club with the other 14 players. He had no help playing alongside Gallagher who ran around like a headless chicken and the people in front of (apart from Sterling) May as well have stayed on their summer holidays so far this season.

6 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

Or maybe people are finally realising there are far bigger issues in this team than Jorginho. He was definitely sh*t today but join the club with the other 14 players. He had no help playing alongside Gallagher who ran around like a headless chicken and the people in front of (apart from Sterling) May as well have stayed on their summer holidays so far this season.

Mount and Havertz in particular.

Edited August 21, 20223 yr by jack_super_class

4 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

Or maybe people are finally realising there are far bigger issues in this team than Jorginho. He was definitely sh*t today but join the club with the other 14 players. He had no help playing alongside Gallagher who ran around like a headless chicken and the people in front of (apart from Sterling) May as well have stayed on their summer holidays so far this season.

"He had no help"! Typical deflect attention elsewhere. Jorginho is meant to be our "defensive" midfielder. The player who's job it is, more than anyone else, to screen and protect our back line. He was like a turn stile in our midfield today. Perhaps we should only play him when Kante is available to "help him".

Just now, just said:

"He had no help"! Typical deflect attention elsewhere. Jorginho is meant to be our "defensive" midfielder. The player who's job it is, more than anyone else, to screen and protect our back line. He was like a turn stile in our midfield today. Perhaps we should only play him when Kante is available to "help him".

I didn't deflect anything, I specifically said "he was sh*t" but you can't expect one CM to be able to stop what Leeds were doing today with no help.

1 minute ago, timetowaste said:

I didn't deflect anything, I specifically said "he was sh*t" but you can't expect one CM to be able to stop what Leeds were doing today with no help.

Oh but we can though. We have seen a fit Kante do it on countless occasions.

But that point aside, in a battle like today, you would expect Jorginho to be far more instrumental in effectively closing down his closest opponents, contesting tackles and regaining possession. How often do you see him win a 50-50 tackle? In fact how often does he even commit to one? 

1 hour ago, just said:

Oh but we can though. We have seen a fit Kante do it on countless occasions.

But that point aside, in a battle like today, you would expect Jorginho to be far more instrumental in effectively closing down his closest opponents, contesting tackles and regaining possession. How often do you see him win a 50-50 tackle? In fact how often does he even commit to one? 

Nah I disagree with this, Kante at Chelsea has always had solid midfield partners whether it be Matic, Cesc, Jorginho or Kovacic and this is what's helped him do the things he's best at, he'd never be able to flourish if he was alongside somebody as tactically all over the place as Gallagher was today.

I agree with most of what you're saying about Jorginho's performance, hence me saying he was sh*t today, but his job was made a lot more difficult by everybody else around him. It was just a sh*t show all round but a lot of posts I've seen that are digging out certain players (mainly Mendy, Mount and Havertz) that have consistently been given a pass on their poor performances and people are getting sick of it.

3 hours ago, just said:

Lots of focus on other players in today's debacle. Havertz, Mount, Gallagher etc. Fair enough I suppose yes, they were all garbage. But very few comments, and none at all so far in this thread, about the "disaster class" performance delivered by J5. You'd think with his experience and alleged leadership qualities he would have been at the forefront of the midfield battle today. But no. It seems everyone has come to accept, (not before time of course), that this is what we should expect from him when teams play a high pressing game with lots of intensity, and we shouldn't be judging him on it. Ah, well. On to the next game then.

Yes, It was as expected. Last week, everyone said when Jorgi played well the team played well. Nope, it is the other way around with jorgi. 

 

6 hours ago, timetowaste said:

Nah I disagree with this, Kante at Chelsea has always had solid midfield partners whether it be Matic, Cesc, Jorginho or Kovacic and this is what's helped him do the things he's best at, he'd never be able to flourish if he was alongside somebody as tactically all over the place as Gallagher was today.

I agree with most of what you're saying about Jorginho's performance, hence me saying he was sh*t today, but his job was made a lot more difficult by everybody else around him. It was just a sh*t show all round but a lot of posts I've seen that are digging out certain players (mainly Mendy, Mount and Havertz) that have consistently been given a pass on their poor performances and people are getting sick of it.

Matic and Kova I'll give you, especially Matic. Very solid defensively. Fabregas and Jorginho no chance. Neither of them are/were any good from a purely defensive viewpoint. 

8 hours ago, timetowaste said:

Or maybe people are finally realising there are far bigger issues in this team than Jorginho. He was definitely sh*t today but join the club with the other 14 players. He had no help playing alongside Gallagher who ran around like a headless chicken and the people in front of (apart from Sterling) May as well have stayed on their summer holidays so far this season.

Gallagher isn't a DM like Kovacic nor a box-to-box like Kante. The boy had 8 PL goals last season at Palace, it was a mistake to play him there to begin with, he should have been forward and up instead of Havertz that at this point isn't doing anything anyway. The player that resembles Mount the most is Gallagher so this is all on Tuchel. So Jorginho couldn't do much by himself though we did have 60% possession, if we had an attack the first goal wouldn't matter much but we clearly can't attack at all, our best chance was a 0:0 draw.

6 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Gallagher isn't a DM like Kovacic nor a box-to-box like Kante. The boy had 8 PL goals last season at Palace, it was a mistake to play him there to begin with, he should have been forward and up instead of Havertz that at this point isn't doing anything anyway. The player that resembles Mount the most is Gallagher so this is all on Tuchel. So Jorginho couldn't do much by himself though we did have 60% possession, if we had an attack the first goal wouldn't matter much but we clearly can't attack at all, our best chance was a 0:0 draw.

Why should Gallagher replace  Havertz when he resembles Mount though? 

Haven’t heard the interview live but read that TT said we were the better team in the first 20mins and that matches with what I‘ve seen. We did look sharp, were better and closer to a goal so no idea why our best chance was a 0:0. Btw. that doesn‘t mean Leeds were rubbish in the first 20 as they clearly had a good plan and ferociously pressed us. 

my only explanation for Gallagher in midfield is that we never wanted to win due a possessional game with a dominant midfield but by overthrowing them in their 1/3 (which worked well at the beginning) and mostly build up over our flanks (bit asymmetrical, mostly left) or long balls from Kouli, completely overplaying our midfield. So in theory I guess Gallagher was supposed to get mostly into or near to the box and help us score. 
That plan certainly did work to some extent in the beginning and the way we conceded the first and quickly the second did our heads in. I blame TT for not finding good enough answers during half time.

Unfortunately Tuchel builds the team to fit around Jorginho so others are played out of position to accommodate him, which would be fine if he actually did anything in games but he is simply a massive liability, both in attack and defence. We were once again dominated in midfield because everything moved through him so slowly, and he was then easily beaten in defence in pretty much every situation. Teams know now just to get on him and he will lose the ball, give him a bit of time and he will barely harm them with sideways nonsense or one of them terrible floaty balls forward. He was captain in name only yesterday, did nothing on the pitch other than his pointing sh*te.

Tuchel has to change the tactics, dropping Jorginho is the priority as it means we can go to a proper 4 at the back, have an actual functioning midfield that can then create for the attack, and be combative without the ball. 

But he wont, he`s ridiculously stubborn, Gallagher will no doubt be dropped next game rather than Jorginho, we will still play abysmal, dour football with Jorgino at the hear of it.

Edited August 22, 20223 yr by dkw

Mental that its being reported we're extending his contract. Thought this curse might finally be over. 

5 minutes ago, dkw said:

Unfortunately Tuchel builds the team to fit around Jorginho so others are played out of position to accommodate him, which would be fine if he actually did anything in games but he is simply a massive liability, both in attack and defence. We were once again dominated in midfield because everything moved through him so slowly, and he was then easily beaten in defence in pretty much every situation. Teams know now just to get on him and he will lose the ball, give him a bit of time and he will barely harm them with sideways nonsense or one of them terrible floaty balls forward. He was captain in name only yesterday, did nothing on the pitch other than his pointing sh*te.

Tuchel has to change the tactics, dropping Jorginho is the priority as it means we can go to a proper 4 at the back, have an actual functioning midfield that can then create for the attack, and be combative without the ball. 

But he wont, he`s ridiculously stubborn, Gallagher will no doubt be dropped next game rather than Jorginho, we will still play abysmal, dour football with Jorgino at the hear of it.

You know my stance on Jorgi but I won't drop him. We simply have no other alternatives. 

 

 

 

27 minutes ago, weetee said:

Why should Gallagher replace  Havertz when he resembles Mount though? 

Haven’t heard the interview live but read that TT said we were the better team in the first 20mins and that matches with what I‘ve seen. We did look sharp, were better and closer to a goal so no idea why our best chance was a 0:0. Btw. that doesn‘t mean Leeds were rubbish in the first 20 as they clearly had a good plan and ferociously pressed us. 

my only explanation for Gallagher in midfield is that we never wanted to win due a possessional game with a dominant midfield but by overthrowing them in their 1/3 (which worked well at the beginning) and mostly build up over our flanks (bit asymmetrical, mostly left) or long balls from Kouli, completely overplaying our midfield. So in theory I guess Gallagher was supposed to get mostly into or near to the box and help us score. 
That plan certainly did work to some extent in the beginning and the way we conceded the first and quickly the second did our heads in. I blame TT for not finding good enough answers during half time.

Gallagher could have played behind Sterling just like Mount, we would have 2 offensively oriented players around Sterling. The point is that such players don't really thrive when they are playing deeper, Mount almost never plays deeper like Gallagher did yesterday so it was bound to fail with Gallagher there too.

The match was already lost at half time, we were never scoring a goal anyway let alone 2.

Jorginho is our only sitting DM player and when he went out we conceded from open play as well, I don't blame Tuchel for trying to come back into the game, maybe it's bad that he couldn't solve the problems but our attacking phase is just very poor in general. It didn't matter that he put Ziyech and Pulisic since we essentially have nobody to score a goal and prior to that even when we did have possession you could notice that Sterling was always in a 1v3, Havertz too and Mount as well so nobody can keep the ball up and naturally nobody can pass it forward so it goes back to the backline and Leeds then just presses again.

One thing I do know is that Leeds won't have the depth nor the fitness to play like that every match, lower-end teams can start the season well but in due time their key players do get tired and their intensity is gone.

 

The issue with Jorginho, is that when teams double mark or double press him it completely nullifies him and takes him out of the game. This is not a new issue, this is something that has been evident ever since the wheels started to fall off in Sarri's season. I think this is why Kovacic is so important to this team, because he is arguably one of the best footballers in the world in playing against a high press. Without Kova we have nobody capable of doing it. You take that away from Jorginho and what else does he offer? Nothing, except penalties - and even they aren't going in as regularly as they used to. 

Occasionally we have seen Jorginho beat a press with quick passing but it doesn't seem to happen that often. He has been an ok to good player for us over the last 4 years but his is definitely a position I would like us to 'upgrade' in the near future.  

8 minutes ago, drjonesy1994 said:

The issue with Jorginho, is that when teams double mark or double press him it completely nullifies him and takes him out of the game. This is not a new issue, this is something that has been evident ever since the wheels started to fall off in Sarri's season. I think this is why Kovacic is so important to this team, because he is arguably one of the best footballers in the world in playing against a high press. Without Kova we have nobody capable of doing it. You take that away from Jorginho and what else does he offer? Nothing, except penalties - and even they aren't going in as regularly as they used to. 

Occasionally we have seen Jorginho beat a press with quick passing but it doesn't seem to happen that often. He has been an ok to good player for us over the last 4 years but his is definitely a position I would like us to 'upgrade' in the near future.  

The irony is that under Sarri, Kovacic didn't have a great season. When you do mark out Jorginho with 2 players in a 4-3-3, someone else is always free. Sarri was at some point hoping for that to happen, a fast 1-2 and the next thing you see is Kante running with the ball in the final third or Hazard getting a 1v1 situation. So no wonder both had arguably their best seasons when you see their end product.

Though in our current formation he basically has to pass to the wing-back or back to T.Silva so it's nothing special...

Edited August 22, 20223 yr by Gol15

21 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Gallagher could have played behind Sterling just like Mount, we would have 2 offensively oriented players around Sterling. The point is that such players don't really thrive when they are playing deeper, Mount almost never plays deeper like Gallagher did yesterday so it was bound to fail with Gallagher there too.

The match was already lost at half time, we were never scoring a goal anyway let alone 2.

Jorginho is our only sitting DM player and when he went out we conceded from open play as well, I don't blame Tuchel for trying to come back into the game, maybe it's bad that he couldn't solve the problems but our attacking phase is just very poor in general. It didn't matter that he put Ziyech and Pulisic since we essentially have nobody to score a goal and prior to that even when we did have possession you could notice that Sterling was always in a 1v3, Havertz too and Mount as well so nobody can keep the ball up and naturally nobody can pass it forward so it goes back to the backline and Leeds then just presses again.

One thing I do know is that Leeds won't have the depth nor the fitness to play like that every match, lower-end teams can start the season well but in due time their key players do get tired and their intensity is gone.

 

I can follow almost all of it but never score? C‘mon, Sterling had 1-2 nice shots, Mount had a good one and RLC wasted an excellent chance (was almost celebrating already until I realised it wasn‘t James..). That’s been in the first 15-20 mins and obviously we lost the plot after Mendy gifted Leeds all they need out of the blue. So no, that IMO is just spinning things into the extreme negatives because of how the game went. 
 

re Jorgi / BTT: the system isn‘t build to accommodate him but a whole bunch of players. Thiago and Mendy for starters. James and Ben/Cucu look usually extremely good as wingbacks etc pp. 
 

Edited August 22, 20223 yr by weetee

4 minutes ago, weetee said:

was almost celebrating already until I realised it wasn‘t James..).  

 

😂😂 

I thought that was James also. I screamed "shoot"  (ok that is the pg version of my shout) then I saw it was ruben. 

Edited August 22, 20223 yr by Bob stark

Just now, Bob stark said:

😂😂 

I thought that was James also. I screamed "shoot"  (ok that is the pg version of my shout) then I saw it was ruben. 

James would have shot immediately (and would scored lol) so it was obvious something‘s wrong once he tried messing around.. 

40 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Mental that its being reported we're extending his contract. Thought this curse might finally be over. 

That is the crazy part. We will's end up extending Kante also. I am not sure they both have the legs for a long PL season anymore, in Kante’s case he can’t stay fit. This summer was the perfect opportunity to replace Jorgi with fresh legs, & we had offers but we refused. 

58 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Gallagher could have played behind Sterling just like Mount, we would have 2 offensively oriented players around Sterling. The point is that such players don't really thrive when they are playing deeper, Mount almost never plays deeper like Gallagher did yesterday so it was bound to fail with Gallagher there too.

The match was already lost at half time, we were never scoring a goal anyway let alone 2.

Jorginho is our only sitting DM player and when he went out we conceded from open play as well, I don't blame Tuchel for trying to come back into the game, maybe it's bad that he couldn't solve the problems but our attacking phase is just very poor in general. It didn't matter that he put Ziyech and Pulisic since we essentially have nobody to score a goal and prior to that even when we did have possession you could notice that Sterling was always in a 1v3, Havertz too and Mount as well so nobody can keep the ball up and naturally nobody can pass it forward so it goes back to the backline and Leeds then just presses again.

One thing I do know is that Leeds won't have the depth nor the fitness to play like that every match, lower-end teams can start the season well but in due time their key players do get tired and their intensity is gone.

 

One more thing re Gallagher: he was excellent in aerial duels and also pressed very well- so imo it was pretty obvious we try to pin Leeds down and force them to play long balls which we immediately recoup and Gallagher did that very impressively. Don‘t think Billy would have been of much help there. 

So the real pitty (for yesterdays matchup) was that we can‘t have Thiago pushing into defensive midfield and play amongside RLC and Gallagher with Trev and KK at the back. That would be the beauty of FdJ for example (or Marquinhos as the elite version). The plan was never to build up through the center anyway but to be physically imposing. Edit: which is the main weakness of Jorgi, I guess we can agree on that one.

Edited August 22, 20223 yr by weetee

4 minutes ago, weetee said:

One more thing re Gallagher: he was excellent in aerial duels and also pressed very well- so imo it was pretty obvious we try to pin Leeds down and force them to play long balls which we immediately recoup and Gallagher did that very impressively. Don‘t think Billy would have been of much help there. 

So the real pitty (for yesterdays matchup) was that we can‘t have Thiago pushing into defensive midfield and play amongside RLC and Gallagher with Trev and KK at the back. That would be the beauty of FdJ for example (or Marquinhos as the elite version). The plan was never to build up through the center anyway but to be physically imposing. Edit: which is the main weakness of Jorgi, I guess we can agree on that one.

Though I still think that if we had started the match with RLC alongside Jorginho and Gallagher further up instead of Havertz, that we would have done much better. 

2 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Though I still think that if we had started the match with RLC alongside Jorginho and Gallagher further up instead of Havertz, that we would have done much better. 

Possibly, yes. But I just don‘t think our beginning that bad (on the contrary almost) so that‘s said with a bit of hindsight. Problem is the second goal came to quick in succession to really react tactically.