2 minutes ago, just said:

It would be great, to illustrate your argument, if you could provide 3 or 4 clips of different games in which Kante making mistakes has led directly to goals conceded.

The Rudiger clip is not a mistake in a dangerous part of the pitch is it? Kante is 12 yards inside the other half of the pitch when he treads on the ball. As I said before, Kante does not make anywhere near as many unforced errors and mistakes in dangerous areas of the pitch as Jorginho does. That is just a fact.

Kante doesn't do it, but he also doesn't play as the sitting DM for us either.

When he was put to play in the Jorginho position he did make more than a few unforced errors. Or did you selectively forget those times he slipped away or gave away the ball for wide open counter-attacks...? 

9 hours ago, BedfordBlue said:

Jorginho is prone to mistakes. Some people need to accept that. Yes he’s a good player, but this won’t be the last time this season that he costs us by giving the ball away in a bad area. 

You need to understand him being on the edge of costly mistake all game long is the reason he is so good and important to his teams. In no way is perfect but who is...

10 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Kante doesn't do it, but he also doesn't play as the sitting DM for us either.

When he was put to play in the Jorginho position he did make more than a few unforced errors. Or did you selectively forget those times he slipped away or gave away the ball for wide open counter-attacks...? 

Again Gol, can you please provide 3 or 4 clips of Kante doing that in different games which has led directly to goals conceded or maybe penalties awarded?

Look, Jorginho was having a good game yesterday but in that game he made two bad mistakes. One led to a goal, the other didn't, but it is something he is prone to as a quick 30 second YouTube search will illustrate.

24 minutes ago, just said:

It would be great, to illustrate your argument, if you could provide 3 or 4 clips of different games in which Kante making mistakes has led directly to goals conceded.

The Rudiger clip is not a mistake in a dangerous part of the pitch is it? Kante is 12 yards inside the other half of the pitch when he treads on the ball. As I said before, Kante does not make anywhere near as many unforced errors and mistakes in dangerous areas of the pitch as Jorginho does. That is just a fact.

Not going to do that as that’s pointless. I rate Kante but can still acknowledge that’s he’s not exactly the safest in possession and that he’s got a mistake in him like everyone else.

And you are a bit ridiculous if you believe he didn’t lose the ball in a dangerous area in that clip. I know you love Kante but that’s not exactly nuanced with Real Madrid storming towards an unprotected back three like that. Even Comical Ali would find that worrying.

1 minute ago, just said:

Again Gol, can you please provide 3 or 4 clips of Kante doing that in different games which has led directly to goals conceded or maybe penalties awarded?

Look, Jorginho was having a good game yesterday but in that game he made two bad mistakes. One led to a goal, the other didn't, but it is something he is prone to as a quick 30 second YouTube search will illustrate.

I chose not to do put up clips of Kante's fails but if you think I'm lying or something that's not my problem. Jorginho did make a mistake but the goal was a result of Richarlison being offside and that's a fact that nobody can dispute.

8 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Not going to do that as that’s pointless. I rate Kante but can still acknowledge that’s he’s not exactly the safest in possession and that he’s got a mistake in him like everyone else.

And you are a bit ridiculous if you believe he didn’t lose the ball in a dangerous area in that clip. I know you love Kante but that’s not exactly nuanced with Real Madrid storming towards an unprotected back three like that. Even Comical Ali would find that worrying.

You can't find the clips can you? 

3 minutes ago, just said:

You can't find the clips can you? 

No just, I just have better things to do than scour the internet for Kante mistakes. You've clearly spent time searching for Jorginho's but that's up to you.

I've watched every Chelsea game for the last 20 years. Everyone with any kind of objectivity knows Kante makes plenty of mistakes on a regular basis. And he's always been a disaster when he's tried to fill Jorginho's role in the team. Like vs Real Madrid when he sent us out of the Champions League with his three massive mistakes when he didn't have Jorginho to babysit him anymore 😊

The end.

11 minutes ago, Sindre said:

No just, I just have better things to do than scour the internet for Kante mistakes. You've clearly spent time searching for Jorginho's but that's up to you.

I've watched every Chelsea game for the last 20 years. Everyone with any kind of objectivity knows Kante makes plenty of mistakes on a regular basis. And he's always been a disaster when he's tried to fill Jorginho's role in the team. Like vs Real Madrid when he sent us out of the Champions League with his three massive mistakes when he didn't have Jorginho to babysit him anymore 😊

The end.

Can I suggest stop comparing kante to Jorgi. 

I can't defend or praise Jorgi if you use Kante as standard. Jorgi had a very good game yesterday but his role was not as difficult as Kante. You put Kante on Jorgi role we will not be as good for sure but you put Jorgi on kante role, it is basically free 3 point for spurs. 

 

2 hours ago, Sindre said:

Big part of the reason at the very least. Our pressing was another reason why we were so dominant yesterday but Jorginho played no little role in outplaying them. Pulled the strings and kept Tottenham running between the ball.

He played a big part,  that I agree.  His passing was spot on and he kept the ball very well. 

One point about jorgi,  a lot of people say when Jorgi play well the team play well. This is actually the complete opposite, the better the team play the better Jorgi will play. His role in the team is not to shine, his role is to allow the other player to shine. 

I think we can all agree that we look better on the ball against Spurs than Everton especially our two wb. Was it because Jorginho made them better? Nope, I thought jorgi played well against Everton. The difference was our wb simply played better hence Jorgi looked better. 

 

 

 

 

 

Couple of points to add to this thread so this should be fun.

1. I thought Jorginho was probably having his best game in a Chelsea shirt that first half yesterday, however this is largely due to our high press and Spurs being more than happy to sit deep when we had the ball and 'park the bus' so to speak. It's no surprise Jorginho would do well against such a tactic, as recycling possession with low risk high percentage passes is his speciality. Up until the their first goal he was a 10/10 for me.

2. The mistake. All the praise i was going to give him gone in a micro second. I can't remember who said it earlier in this thread but they summed it up perfectly by saying J5 is another David Luiz. Can play a worldie but there's always a f**k up around the corner. The drag back was a bizarre thing to do then his complete lack of physical presence meant he ended up on the floor instead of being able to shield the ball. Fabinho/Rodri/Rice all would have at least been able to stand their ground here had they been daft enough in the first place to try such an idiotic play. 

3. The last 16 hours of this thread has confirmed to me that @Gol15 has to be Jorginho's family member, or possibly Jorginho himself on a burner account. The lack of self awareness and inability to simply critique Jorginho for the mistake shows borderline obsessive personality traits with Jorginho that can't be healthy for an individual. 

4. Kante and Kovacic looks like they'll both be out for a while now so he inevitably starts again. Not sure who is the best pairing for him though, don't think Gallagher can do it as he gets caught high up the pitch too much. Chukwuemeka debut in the next game maybe?

I find it comical that the Jorginho fans can't ever admit that he has any consistent flaws in his game and always, always, without fail, try to point the finger at other players. I'd have a lot more respect for their point of view on him if they simply said, "OK, yeah, we've seen from experience that he is prone to a bad gaffe on occaisions, much more so than any of our other midfielders or defenders, and they can prove costly in two or three games a season, but despite that, we still feel his positives more than out-weigh his negatives". I still wouldn't necessarily agree with them on him as a player but I'd have more respect for their view.

There again, their blind refusal to accept any repeat mistakes or short-comings in his game, (as his own responsibility), is probably what makes this thread so funny and entertaining.

58 minutes ago, just said:

I find it comical that the Jorginho fans can't ever admit that he has any consistent flaws in his game and always, always, without fail, try to point the finger at other players. I'd have a lot more respect for their point of view on him if they simply said, "OK, yeah, we've seen from experience that he is prone to a bad gaffe on occaisions, much more so than any of our other midfielders or defenders, and they can prove costly in two or three games a season, but despite that, we still feel his positives more than out-weigh his negatives". I still wouldn't necessarily agree with them on him as a player but I'd have more respect for their view.

There again, their blind refusal to accept any repeat mistakes or short-comings in his game, (as his own responsibility), is probably what makes this thread so funny and entertaining.

I think to an extent we are all guilty of that as people tend to notice mistakes in a player they rate less highly as they are looking out for them or even expect then.

However the argument that Jorginho's appalling mistake yesterday is irrelevant because some people say it should have been offside is probably one of  the worst defences of a mistake I've ever heard. He still bloody did it, when it was utter stupidity and it did lead to  goal.

17 minutes ago, loz said:

I think to an extent we are all guilty of that as people tend to notice mistakes in a player they rate less highly as they are looking out for them or even expect then.

However the argument that Jorginho's appalling mistake yesterday is irrelevant because some people say it should have been offside is probably one of  the worst defences of a mistake I've ever heard. He still bloody did it, when it was utter stupidity and it did lead to  goal.

Agree with all of this. We all tend to overemphasize mistakes that confirm our biases towards some players, while we gloss over others that don't fit our narrative.

But saying Jorginho didn't make a mistake and isn't at fault for the goal is ridiculous. Of course TT is going to say it after a game like that, because after you played brilliantly against your London rival and got undone by scandalous refereeing is not the time to go after your own players. Doesn't change the fact that Jorginho made a stupid mistake without which the goal wouldn't have happened -> he too (alongside Anthony Taylor) is at fault for the goal. Sorry @Gol15 🤷‍♂️

Edited August 15, 20223 yr by True Blue23

4 minutes ago, True Blue23 said:

Agree with all of this. We all tend to overemphasize mistakes that confirm our biases towards some players, while we gloss over others that don't fit our narrative.

But saying Jorginho didn't make a mistake and isn't at fault for the goal is ridiculous. Of course TT is going to say it after a game like that, because after you played brilliantly against your London rival and got undone by scandalous refereeing is not the time to go after your own players. Doesn't change the fact that Jorginho made a stupid mistake without which the goal wouldn't have happened -> he too (alongside Anthony Taylor) is at fault for the goal. Sorry @Gol15 🤷‍♂️

Tuchel could have said whatever he wanted, so there is nothing "of course he did" there at all... I happen to agree with him, you don't need to it's ok, blame Jorginho for the lost match and have fun!

26 minutes ago, loz said:

I think to an extent we are all guilty of that as people tend to notice mistakes in a player they rate less highly as they are looking out for them or even expect then.

However the argument that Jorginho's appalling mistake yesterday is irrelevant because some people say it should have been offside is probably one of  the worst defences of a mistake I've ever heard. He still bloody did it, when it was utter stupidity and it did lead to  goal.

I wonder if just realized he was basically describing himself? Switch Jorginho with Kante and that should be him in a nutshell 😂

Gol15 may be a bit extreme with Jorginho but I don't think i've ever seen just accept anything less than Kante being Gods gift to football either.

9 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Tuchel could have said whatever he wanted, so there is nothing "of course he did" there at all... I happen to agree with him, you don't need to it's ok, blame Jorginho for the lost match and have fun!

I'm not blaming him for the loss. We should still have won, despite his mistake, heck he shouldn't even have been in the position to make the mistake, had the foul on Havertz been given. 

But saying Jorginho did no wrong because it should have been offside or because the foul on Kai should have been given is bizarre. He knew the foul on Havertz wasn't given and he didn't know Richarlison was going to be in an offside position, so he shouldn't have tried to dribble his way out of trouble against two opponents in our own box. So he made a mistake that was causal for Spurs scoring their first goal. That's just the facts. No point denying them.

I quite like Jorginho. I think he's a good player, who adds something unique to the team. On top of that I love his mentality and his leadership. But he's not without his flaws and I'm not going to pretend he is.

Edited August 15, 20223 yr by True Blue23

4 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Tuchel could have said whatever he wanted, so there is nothing "of course he did" there at all... I happen to agree with him, you don't need to it's ok, blame Jorginho for the lost match and have fun!

An audio clip from pitch side after Jorginho's error is being circulated on the internet here is the transcript gol:

 

Tuchel:  "NOOOO. Jorgi NO. Jorgi NO. Not again! No!. Ficken! scheiße!

Arno Michels (Tuchel's assisstant): "He done it again Boss".

Zslot Lőw (Tuchel's other assisstant): "He did again Boss innit?"

Antonio Conte: "Yesa, Yesa! Geta ina da backa da neta". 

Antonio Conte (looking directly at Tuchel: "f**ka da youa Spindles!"

Anthony Taylor: "Oh, that is so funny. What was the twat doing there? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!"

Tuchel: "Right. Eier (bollocks in German) I am taking him straight off".

Arno Michels (Tuchel's assisstant): "You should take him straight off Boss".

Zslot Lőw (Tuchel's other assisstant): "You should take him straight off Boss innit?"

Anthony Taylor: "Oh, God I love this f**kin' job! What can I do next? Oh, I know......."

19 minutes ago, Sindre said:

I wonder if just realized he was basically describing himself? Switch Jorginho with Kante and that should be him in a nutshell 😂

Gol15 may be a bit extreme with Jorginho but I don't think i've ever seen just accept anything less than Kante being Gods gift to football either.

Kante could be better with his final ball he isn't exactly Glen Hoddle in that respect. Your turn.

Frankly this thread is hilarious, how anyone can claim it wasnt Jorginho`s mistake because the goal shouldnt have stood is incredible. They wouldnt have had the chance for the offside goal if he hadnt dicked about with it in his own area, just boot it as far as possible like any sensible player would have done.

13 minutes ago, just said:

Kante could be better with his final ball he isn't exactly Glen Hoddle in that respect. Your turn.

Cost us with his mistake yesterday. So slow and weak that we are in trouble if he get isolated. Not suited to be a lone DM in a 4-3-3 for this very reason.

24 minutes ago, just said:

Kante could be better with his final ball he isn't exactly Glen Hoddle in that respect. Your turn.

Please don't ask Gol to describe one of Jorginho's weaknesses, i fear this could open a black hole or something. 

47 minutes ago, True Blue23 said:

I'm not blaming him for the loss. We should still have won, despite his mistake, heck he shouldn't even have been in the position to make the mistake, had the foul on Havertz been given. 

But saying Jorginho did no wrong because it should have been offside or because the foul on Kai should have been given is bizarre. He knew the foul on Havertz wasn't given and he didn't know Richarlison was going to be in an offside position, so he shouldn't have tried to dribble his way out of trouble against two opponents in our own box. So he made a mistake that was causal for Spurs scoring their first goal. That's just the facts. No point denying them.

I quite like Jorginho. I think he's a good player, who adds something unique to the team. On top of that I love his mentality and his leadership. But he's not without his flaws and I'm not going to pretend he is.

To be fair I never denied Jorginho making a mistake there. If you want to argue that at some point he was the one that held our destiny in his hands and blew it, that's fine I guess.

I'm just reluctant to blame him for the goal itself due to the fact of how it was given/how it was scored.

35 minutes ago, just said:

An audio clip from pitch side after Jorginho's error is being circulated on the internet here is the transcript gol:

 

Tuchel:  "NOOOO. Jorgi NO. Jorgi NO. Not again! No!. Ficken! scheiße!

Arno Michels (Tuchel's assisstant): "He done it again Boss".

Zslot Lőw (Tuchel's other assisstant): "He did again Boss innit?"

Antonio Conte: "Yesa, Yesa! Geta ina da backa da neta". 

Antonio Conte (looking directly at Tuchel: "f**ka da youa Spindles!"

Anthony Taylor: "Oh, that is so funny. What was the twat doing there? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!"

Tuchel: "Right. Eier (bollocks in German) I am taking him straight off".

Arno Michels (Tuchel's assisstant): "You should take him straight off Boss".

Zslot Lőw (Tuchel's other assisstant): "You should take him straight off Boss innit?"

Anthony Taylor: "Oh, God I love this f**kin' job! What can I do next? Oh, I know......."

Tuchel openly said that he doesn't blame Jorginho for that goal, nor was he substituted because of that goal either, his own words and easy to find as it was an interview right after the match was over.

So even if you want to fully blame Jorginho for the conceded goal please understand that it's not his fault that the rules suddenly stopped being followed, despite him losing the ball. It's not like he gifted the ball to Kane in the penalty area, it was a shot outside of the box after all so the question is what influenced the goal more, Jorginho giving the ball away or the goal itself being scored from a clear offside? I think it's a fair question, but I also know that you're never really fair to begin with.

Mind you this is only because it's Jorginho, any other player and this wouldn't be a discussion at all.

Had Kante lost possession after a player came from behind you would be pretty quiet so I'm not going to pretend that I'm surprised that a few of you always complain about Jorginho, win or lose, always the same people do it after every match, you guys would probably beat Jorginho up if you saw him on the street or something but then I'm seen as the extreme one, that is funny.

Also another thing, it's pretty clear that nobody is blaming our players for the second goal. Which is interesting because if we are to apply the same standard, someone should also be blamed for the second goal, depending how far back you want to go it's the defense at the corner or whoever conceded the corner to begin with or whoever that goes... But despite the second goal hurting us more, it's not being discussed at all. Will you ever adress anything I said here, I'm pretty sure you won't.

26 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Tuchel openly said that he doesn't blame Jorginho for that goal, nor was he substituted because of that goal either, his own words and easy to find as it was an interview right after the match was over.

actions speak louder than words. He was hooked off after that clusterf**k, obviously a manager would defend his players in the aftermath though. This is just massively basic management that you see all the time. 

27 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

So even if you want to fully blame Jorginho for the conceded goal please understand that it's not his fault that the rules suddenly stopped being followed, despite him losing the ball. It's not like he gifted the ball to Kane in the penalty area, it was a shot outside of the box after all so the question is what influenced the goal more, Jorginho giving the ball away or the goal itself being scored from a clear offside? I think it's a fair question, but I also know that you're never really fair to begin with.

he gifted the ball to them, lay on the floor moaning then stood up and hit a half hearted jog to try and block the shot. 100% on him for that goal. 

28 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Mind you this is only because it's Jorginho, any other player and this wouldn't be a discussion at all.

Mendy was criticised plenty last year when he was to blame for goals. Stop with the victim mentality, you sound very scouse. 

29 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Had Kante lost possession after a player came from behind you would be pretty quiet so I'm not going to pretend that I'm surprised that a few of you always complain about Jorginho, win or lose, always the same people do it after every match, you guys would probably beat Jorginho up if you saw him on the street or something but then I'm seen as the extreme one, that is funny.

Had Kante lost possession in such an idiotic position he would've been straight to his feet to chase it down and win it back, i'd have put money on if it was Kante in that position he blocks the shot after getting up straight away. Even Jorginho's biggest fans on here are saying you're wrong. Once again, stop the victim mentality.

31 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Also another thing, it's pretty clear that nobody is blaming our players for the second goal. Which is interesting because if we are to apply the same standard, someone should also be blamed for the second goal, depending how far back you want to go it's the defense at the corner or whoever conceded the corner to begin with or whoever that goes... But despite the second goal hurting us more, it's not being discussed at all. Will you ever adress anything I said here, I'm pretty sure you won't.

Weird, i don't remember seeing anyone dancing with the ball at their feet for the second goal. Being beaten to a header in a 50/50 is vastly different to trying skill moves in your own box surrounded by opposition players when you're in possession. I can't believe any of this actually needs explaining to an adult.

@Gol15 & @True blue1905

I know it feels that way because of the late equalizer, that w**ker Taylor is incompetent and/or crooked and a million other things, but it was a draw, not a loss. We don't lose against Tottenham.