I don't see why we need to sell any of our midfielders. We have a great squad if everyone is fit. 

What we're lacking is world class CBs, LB, CF and RW. We have Ziyech coming in so that partially solves our RW situation for the moment. We are not lacking in numbers what we lack is a clear quality Starting XI to challenge for the top honours. 

As it is we have a very balanced team with plenty of components for Frank to be tactically flexible.

15 hours ago, dansubrosa said:

 

Haha, the posts have aged well! I don’t think anyone ever saw this coming though. What a treat.

Believe me, mate, I wasn't expecting it but very very happy to see him step in like he has

@Gol15

That's because I didn't see anybody calling Jorginho average like you said about Kova. I saw people calling him slow or unathletic or sloppy, but never average. So I asked you a simple question about what I am that makes him average. But instead of answering you go on a rant about me not coming to Jorgis defense (what?) and build a stupid strawmen to the point where you start comparing Barkley to Kova on goals and assists alone and act like they are basically the same player.

But those aren't the same stats. Those are just two values that you picked rather self-servingly and then claimed they have the "same stats" because of it. Do you really think goals and assist are the only relevant numbers when it comes to a midfielder? If so, what do you think of Gilmours performance in the last two games - by your logic he was average, since he didn't get a goal or assist. Correct?

Edited March 9, 20206 yr by Vagabond

@Vagabond You seem to believe that being called average is worse than being called essentially useless and being mocked, or you're just very selective in what you see. There is this third option, that you might be dishonest as well. I wonder which one it is but not enough to make a guess, either way you're not presenting the reality of how people have been talking about Jorginho, and anyone can scroll back and see it so you have no argument there, you're sensitive when it comes to Kovacic and Kovacic only from what I've seen.

Anyway I knew that you wouldn't like the stats, nobody does when it doesn't show what a person wants them to show, but they are what they are, a simple truth based on something I said previously;
a lack of end product player to be sold, then some people showed up and said that end product isn't everything, and I did point out that the lack of end product was the biggest argument when other players were trashed upon and I asked someone to come up with another way of judging things, one person implied that the way the club is going Kante and Jorginho should be sold to which I took the freedom to interpret as that those players don't fit for how Lampard wants the team to play and thus I did get a real opinion and not just someone like you, that only comes in to jump to the rescue of one player and one player only. So you see, Billy Gilmour has nothing to do with this, part from the fact that he's the reason why someone else should be sold according to me.

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

@Vagabond You seem to believe that being called average is worse than being called essentially useless and being mocked, or you're just very selective in what you see. There is this third option, that you might be dishonest as well. I wonder which one it is but not enough to make a guess, either way you're not presenting the reality of how people have been talking about Jorginho, and anyone can scroll back and see it so you have no argument there, you're sensitive when it comes to Kovacic and Kovacic only from what I've seen.

Anyway I knew that you wouldn't like the stats, nobody does when it doesn't show what a person wants them to show, but they are what they are, a simple truth based on something I said previously;
a lack of end product player to be sold, then some people showed up and said that end product isn't everything, and I did point out that the lack of end product was the biggest argument when other players were trashed upon and I asked someone to come up with another way of judging things, one person implied that the way the club is going Kante and Jorginho should be sold to which I took the freedom to interpret as that those players don't fit for how Lampard wants the team to play and thus I did get a real opinion and not just someone like you, that only comes in to jump to the rescue of one player and one player only. So you see, Billy Gilmour has nothing to do with this, part from the fact that he's the reason why someone else should be sold according to me.

People like yourself only ever become stat whores when it suits them, I've noticed you were completely ignoring the stats when it comes to Jorginho and Kante, but now you're using them to compare Kovacic and Barkley because it suits your narrative. You wouldn't use them against Kante and Jorginho, Jorginho who has worse goals/assists if you disregard the penalties, same goes for Kante. 

We all know Ross goes further forward than Kovacic does, even when he's in the CM position that's why he'll have more assists/goals, the same reason Delle Ali has scored 50 PL goals before Lampard/Gerrard/Scholes/Beckham. Is he better? No, but he plays further forward.. I said Ross was sh*t against Spurs in a mood because he was frustrating the hell out of me in the attack, that was just me being silly and I know he's a good player and valuable to keep around. You with a straight face say one of our best players is average, like @Vagabond said, nobody has said Jorginho is average, it's all pure projection from your end for the way you behave against players you don't like. 

I don't think there's a fickle or more bipolar person than yourself that I've encountered online. One minute you're the most negative person in the world saying it's all doom and gloom, then the next you're hyping up the team like it's prime Barcelona. 

4 hours ago, coco said:

He's consistently looked good in a team that, at times, hasn't looked good.

But it's mad how since we brought in Gilmour and Barkley, all of a sudden we look a lot better team with a creative midfield.

The Pedro goal against Everton, rewind back in the move, it started when Gilmour picked up the ball deep in our half, he had an easy pass to make back/sideways, but instead he turned and went forward, two passes later the balls in the net. 

That's something Kovacic has been doing all season... We were playing just as well against Everton when we had Jorginho-Kovacic in the middle or have people forgotten our performances against Wolves, Southampton, Burnley, Brighton etc. It was because of those results we are in the position we are in right now, not our last two performances. 

47 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

@Vagabond You seem to believe that being called average is worse than being called essentially useless and being mocked, or you're just very selective in what you see. There is this third option, that you might be dishonest as well. I wonder which one it is but not enough to make a guess, either way you're not presenting the reality of how people have been talking about Jorginho, and anyone can scroll back and see it so you have no argument there, you're sensitive when it comes to Kovacic and Kovacic only from what I've seen.

Anyway I knew that you wouldn't like the stats, nobody does when it doesn't show what a person wants them to show, but they are what they are, a simple truth based on something I said previously;
a lack of end product player to be sold, then some people showed up and said that end product isn't everything, and I did point out that the lack of end product was the biggest argument when other players were trashed upon and I asked someone to come up with another way of judging things, one person implied that the way the club is going Kante and Jorginho should be sold to which I took the freedom to interpret as that those players don't fit for how Lampard wants the team to play and thus I did get a real opinion and not just someone like you, that only comes in to jump to the rescue of one player and one player only. So you see, Billy Gilmour has nothing to do with this, part from the fact that he's the reason why someone else should be sold according to me.

So many words and you didn't even try to answer my question. Amazing.

I don't understand what you are trying to say or how it is a response to my post. Except that you refuse to answer yet another very straight forward question about Gilmours performance -since no goal/assist means he doesn't have "the stats" in his favour so I know how much weight you think scorers have in a players performance. Instead, you confront me with the next incoherent rant. So please enlighten me; what qualities and stats are you looking for in a midfielder? Clearly, it can't be successful dribbles or a high passing accuracy. Is it really just goals and assists?

PS: I stated multiple times this season that Jorgi is a very important player and will be very important next season. I also stated that our midfield pivot was never the issue when it comes to our results, no matter in what exact setup we are playing (Jorgi-Kanté, Jorgi-Kova, Kova-Kanté are all fine for me). YOU are the one that doesn't want to see one specific player and I'm not the only one that noticed it. So how about you stop projecting?

20 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

So many words and you didn't even try to answer my question. Amazing.

I don't understand what you are trying to say or how it is a response to my post. Except that you refuse to answer yet another very straight forward question about Gilmours performance -since no goal/assist means he doesn't have "the stats" in his favour so I know how much weight you think scorers have in a players performance. Instead, you confront me with the next incoherent rant. So please enlighten me; what qualities and stats are you looking for in a midfielder? Clearly, it can't be successful dribbles or a high passing accuracy. Is it really just goals and assists?

PS: I stated multiple times this season that Jorgi is a very important player and will be very important next season. I also stated that our midfield pivot was never the issue when it comes to our results, no matter in what exact setup we are playing (Jorgi-Kanté, Jorgi-Kova, Kova-Kanté are all fine for me). YOU are the one that doesn't want to see one specific player and I'm not the only one that noticed it. So how about you stop projecting?

First of all, leave Billy Gilmour out of this. You actually dare to bring him up after you spent hours telling me and others that he probably won't be a special player...that was just some day ago. Stop being so fake, Billy Gilmour is playing the Jorginho position that much is very clear and Barkley is playing what Kovacic is playing, pretty simple logic here really.

I compared what is comparable in the context of having an end product (scoring, assisting) and they have very similar stats just that Barkley played much less, all in the context of having, or not having an end product. Is that that hard to understand it or did you join a cult where it's actually a rule that nobody can compare Kovacic to anybody else?

The stats are real and they tell a good story here, regardless if you like them or not. Barkley isn't that much worse in terms of producing key stats in comparison to Kovacic. And I don't even need stats to say that Billy Gilmour should start games over Jorginho, amazing!

We just had the best home performance without Jorginho and without Kovacic, last time when we played Everton they didn't even have a manager and we played with our full team and we lost 3:1.

7 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

First of all, leave Billy Gilmour out of this. You actually dare to bring him up after you spent hours telling me and others that he probably won't be a special player...that was just some day ago. Stop being so fake, Billy Gilmour is playing the Jorginho position that much is very clear and Barkley is playing what Kovacic is playing, pretty simple logic here really.

I compared what is comparable in the context of having an end product (scoring, assisting) and they have very similar stats just that Barkley played much less, all in the context of having, or not having an end product. Is that that hard to understand it or did you join a cult where it's actually a rule that nobody can compare Kovacic to anybody else?

The stats are real and they tell a good story here, regardless if you like them or not. Barkley isn't that much worse in terms of producing key stats in comparison to Kovacic. And I don't even need stats to say that Billy Gilmour should start games over Jorginho, amazing!

We just had the best home performance without Jorginho and without Kovacic, last time when we played Everton they didn't even have a manager and we played with our full team and we lost 3:1.

Completely dishonest, as usual. He never said Gilmour wasn't going to be a special player, he was mentioning that people were overhyping him after one game, which he had a point. You compare when it's convenient for you to compare, hence why you never bring up assists when it comes to Jorginho and Kante, because it doesn't suit your narrative. You're selective when it comes to stats, so don't start going off by "I only go by what the stats say" absolute nonsense, you only go by the stats when they support your argument, you ignore them when they don't. Just how you keep mentioning our win rate with Ross Barkley, but where ignoring our loss rate with Kante whenever I brought it up. 

55 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

So many words and you didn't even try to answer my question. Amazing.

I don't understand what you are trying to say or how it is a response to my post. Except that you refuse to answer yet another very straight forward question about Gilmours performance -since no goal/assist means he doesn't have "the stats" in his favour so I know how much weight you think scorers have in a players performance. Instead, you confront me with the next incoherent rant. So please enlighten me; what qualities and stats are you looking for in a midfielder? Clearly, it can't be successful dribbles or a high passing accuracy. Is it really just goals and assists?

PS: I stated multiple times this season that Jorgi is a very important player and will be very important next season. I also stated that our midfield pivot was never the issue when it comes to our results, no matter in what exact setup we are playing (Jorgi-Kanté, Jorgi-Kova, Kova-Kanté are all fine for me). YOU are the one that doesn't want to see one specific player and I'm not the only one that noticed it. So how about you stop projecting?

Fickleness is a bit thing on this forum, especially with this bloke. 

I remember when Pulisic was a flop in August/September and CHO was much better than him, then in October and November CHO was overhyped and should've went to Bayern and Pulisic was world class. As soon as Gilmour starts underperforming you'll see it again, and when Jorginho has a good game he'll be back to being the best midfielder in the world when it comes to this bloke. But at the moment, he needs to be sold. 

I really would love to see him in Peps team just to see how he's utilise

13 hours ago, Gol15 said:

anyway I knew that you wouldn't like the stats, nobody does when it doesn't show what a person wants them to show, but they are what they are, a simple truth based on something I said previously;
 

Premier league stats this season:              

                                        Kovacic                                   Barkley

Games Played                    25                                            13

Shots                                  18                                            29

Shots on target                   4                                              9

Goals                                   1                                              0

Big Chances Missed            0                                              3

 

I really didn't want to have to do this because it looks like i'm dragging Barkley down, which isn't my intention, but seeing as you keep banging on about stats can you explain the above to me? Apparently Barkley's end product is much better than Kovacic's, yet in less games he's took nearly double the amount of shots and scored less than Kovacic? Not to mention missed 3x as many big chances.

I'm sure you'll ignore the point and tell me i'm just hating on Ross, who may i add has had two very good games. 

11 hours ago, Gol15 said:

First of all, leave Billy Gilmour out of this. You actually dare to bring him up after you spent hours telling me and others that he probably won't be a special player...that was just some day ago. Stop being so fake, Billy Gilmour is playing the Jorginho position that much is very clear and Barkley is playing what Kovacic is playing, pretty simple logic here really.

I compared what is comparable in the context of having an end product (scoring, assisting) and they have very similar stats just that Barkley played much less, all in the context of having, or not having an end product. Is that that hard to understand it or did you join a cult where it's actually a rule that nobody can compare Kovacic to anybody else?

The stats are real and they tell a good story here, regardless if you like them or not. Barkley isn't that much worse in terms of producing key stats in comparison to Kovacic. And I don't even need stats to say that Billy Gilmour should start games over Jorginho, amazing!

We just had the best home performance without Jorginho and without Kovacic, last time when we played Everton they didn't even have a manager and we played with our full team and we lost 3:1.

I spent hours telling you and others that they shouldn't invoke names such as Scholes, Messi, Iniesta and Modric after a single performance, because those players delivered similar (and better) performances for years. It's called consistency and I'm a big fan of it. I still stand by my statements since I don't believe I've been unfair towards Gilmour and my comments were somewhat echoed by Lamps and Keane. Also, after the Everton game and I made another post in his topic that you conveniently ignored. So you basically just built another stupid strawman, those aren't going to work on me. How about you stop trying to put words in my mouth so you can respond to them instead of to what I actually said and you can wiggle your way out of answering my very simple questions and clarifying your positions.

Apparently you don't understand statistical analysis and you should stop using stats in your arguments. The values you chose for comparison are completely arbitrary and self-serving as @Slojo correctly stated and @RIP Mourinho (his stats are arbitrary too, but I believe he is just trying to prove a point) so very aptly showed.

 

1 hour ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Premier league stats this season:              

                                        Kovacic                                   Barkley

Games Played                    25                                            13

Shots                                  18                                            29

Shots on target                   4                                              9

Goals                                   1                                              0

Big Chances Missed            0                                              3

 

I really didn't want to have to do this because it looks like i'm dragging Barkley down, which isn't my intention, but seeing as you keep banging on about stats can you explain the above to me? Apparently Barkley's end product is much better than Kovacic's, yet in less games he's took nearly double the amount of shots and scored less than Kovacic? Not to mention missed 3x as many big chances.

I'm sure you'll ignore the point and tell me i'm just hating on Ross, who may i add has had two very good games. 

Here are the full stats, regarding the end product:

Kovacic has 1 goal and 3 assists in 25 PL games (1684min played), Barkley has 0 goals and 3 assists in 13 PL games (675min played).
That's basically the same stats but if you want to look at overall;
Kovacic has played 37 games overall (25PL,7CL,3FAcup,1UefaScup,1EFLcup) and has 2 goals and 3 assists in 2598min played
Barkley has played 20 games total (13PL,3FAcup,2CL,1UefaScup,1EFLcup) and has 3 goals and 4 assists while playing 1125min in total
So you will probably say that Kovacic has scored more goals in the league but Barkley while having less than 50% of the minutes that Kovacic had managed to shoot on taget more than double the amount of what Kovacic has done so it's safe to say his goal is just about a matter of when and not if, he's a far bigger goal threat than Kovacic.

Kovacic has a < 50% win rate record in the league, Barkley's win rate in the league is > 50%.

Bye bye now!

1 hour ago, Vagabond said:

 

Apparently you don't understand statistical analysis and you should stop using stats in your arguments. The values you chose for comparison are completely arbitrary and self-serving as @Slojo correctly stated and @RIP Mourinho (his stats are arbitrary too, but I believe he is just trying to prove a point) so very aptly showed.

 

Stop being dishonest, I don't believe in any word you say anymore, accept that you were a bit off when you thought that Barkley wouldn't have very similar stats and move on...It can't be that hard if I could change my opinion when I was presented with facts so can you!

6 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Here are the full stats, regarding the end product:

Kovacic has 1 goal and 3 assists in 25 PL games (1684min played), Barkley has 0 goals and 3 assists in 13 PL games (675min played).
That's basically the same stats but if you want to look at overall;
Kovacic has played 37 games overall (25PL,7CL,3FAcup,1UefaScup,1EFLcup) and has 2 goals and 3 assists in 2598min played
Barkley has played 20 games total (13PL,3FAcup,2CL,1UefaScup,1EFLcup) and has 3 goals and 4 assists while playing 1125min in total
So you will probably say that Kovacic has scored more goals in the league but Barkley while having less than 50% of the minutes that Kovacic had managed to shoot on taget more than double the amount of what Kovacic has done so it's safe to say his goal is just about a matter of when and not if, he's a far bigger goal threat than Kovacic.

Kovacic has a < 50% win rate record in the league, Barkley's win rate in the league is > 50%.

Bye bye now!

So you've included Ross' goals against the mighty Grimsby and Nottingham Forest to try and make yourself feel better, completely ignoring the STATS about his poor shooting and missing big chances in the league. Done pretty much what i expected you to do. 

Do you believe in ratings from Whoscored? They have Ross operating at a 6.68 rating this season, with Kovacic at a 6.96 rating. May i just point out Ross' ratring would've been much lower had it not been for his 9.78 against Everton. Or do we ignore stats and ratings that don't fit your bizarre agenda?

Just now, RIP Mourinho said:

So you've included Ross' goals against the mighty Grimsby and Nottingham Forest to try and make yourself feel better, completely ignoring the STATS about his poor shooting and missing big chances in the league. Done pretty much what i expected you to do. 

Do you believe in ratings from Whoscored? They have Ross operating at a 6.68 rating this season, with Kovacic at a 6.96 rating. May i just point out Ross' ratring would've been much lower had it not been for his 9.78 against Everton. Or do we ignore stats and ratings that don't fit your bizarre agenda?

Their stats are very similar, had Barkley played more he would have even better numbers mind you he hasn't even played half of the time and he put up almost the same numbers, you can't prove that he isn't a bigger goal threat than Kovacic that doesn't dare to take a shot he only runs with the ball far away from the opposition's final third. Now invent more stuff !

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

Their stats are very similar, had Barkley played more he would have even better numbers mind you he hasn't even played half of the time and he put up almost the same numbers, you can't prove that he isn't a bigger goal threat than Kovacic that doesn't dare to take a shot he only runs with the ball far away from the opposition's final third. Now invent more stuff !

Can't believe i'm still entertaining this but i digress.. 

So if Barkley would easily be doing better had he had the minutes on the pitch, why hasn't Lamps been picking him? Better yet, why hasn't another big team tried to sign him..?

Last season Barkley played 48 games, he managed 5 goals.. Not exactly tearing up trees when he's a nailed on starter. 

Just now, RIP Mourinho said:

Can't believe i'm still entertaining this but i digress.. 

So if Barkley would easily be doing better had he had the minutes on the pitch, why hasn't Lamps been picking him? Better yet, why hasn't another big team tried to sign him..?

Last season Barkley played 48 games, he managed 5 goals.. Not exactly tearing up trees when he's a nailed on starter. 

Still exactly the same as Kovacic, which is my point. Similar end product, proven. Now deflect more!

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

Still exactly the same as Kovacic, which is my point. Similar end product, proven. Now deflect more!

Answer the questions being asked of you. If he is so good:

1) Why hasn't Lamps been playing him?

2) Why hasn't a big team wanted to sign him?

3) Why does Kovacic have a much higher rating for the season against better teams?

2 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Premier league stats this season:              

                                        Kovacic                                   Barkley

Games Played                    25                                            13

Shots                                  18                                            29

Shots on target                   4                                              9

Goals                                   1                                              0

Big Chances Missed            0                                              3

 

I really didn't want to have to do this because it looks like i'm dragging Barkley down, which isn't my intention, but seeing as you keep banging on about stats can you explain the above to me? Apparently Barkley's end product is much better than Kovacic's, yet in less games he's took nearly double the amount of shots and scored less than Kovacic? Not to mention missed 3x as many big chances.

I'm sure you'll ignore the point and tell me i'm just hating on Ross, who may i add has had two very good games. 

 

The stats clearly demonstrate that Ross Barkley is better at shooting, as he took the most shots. 

Just now, RIP Mourinho said:

Answer the questions being asked of you. If he is so good:

1) Why hasn't Lamps been playing him?

2) Why hasn't a big team wanted to sign him?

3) Why does Kovacic have a much higher rating for the season against better teams?

I clearly stated that they have similar end product and proved it with irrefutable evidence. Now you keep talking about something that I don't care about the slightest, is it so hard to accept you're wrong? Poor little boy, this is nothing compared to the real world that is ahead of you! 

Ask Lampard about your little questions, as a matter of fact, ask him the same question but about Jorginho instead, he has been playing as a key player for 2 seasons now under 2 different managers, Lampard made him Vice-Captain:

‘I was excited to work with him, and from day one in pre-season, we had a possession game, it was clear his ability on the ball.

‘What’s become even clearer since then, his attitude and what he does with the group, he’s driven. That’s why I’ve made him vice-captain. He’s one of those infectious players, he cajoles players on the pitch, before the game. I’ve loved to see the fans’ reaction to him.

‘One thing a fan will always do – and I’m a fan – is that when you see someone giving everything, passion, drive, they will always react to that. You’ve seen that with Jorginho.’

 ...and Man City was about to sign him as well, crazy how all of those things actually happened to Jorginho...and yet you see him as a useful squad player only that lacks several key elements of the game

I can use all of your silly points against you since you show serious signs of double standards!

3 minutes ago, PloKoon13 said:

 

The stats clearly demonstrate that Ross Barkley is better at shooting, as he took the most shots. 

He's a bigger threat that's for sure, Kovacic doesn't shoot at all but he scored like once in the league = must be an amazing end product that nobody in the team can be compared! 

33 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Kovacic has a < 50% win rate record in the league, Barkley's win rate in the league is > 50%.

Context is all.  Who were they playing?  Who else was in the side?  What was the weather like? Who was the referee?  Were they home or away?  Had they played in the previous match?  What was their state of fitness?  What did they have for breakfast?  Were they out on the piss the night before? Did they sleep well?  What relevance does that particular statistic have to anything?  At all?

Just now, yorkleyblue said:

Context is all.  Who were they playing?  Who else was in the side?  What was the weather like? Who was the referee?  Were they home or away?  Had they played in the previous match?  What was their state of fitness?  What did they have for breakfast?  Were they out on the piss the night before? Did they sleep well?  What relevance does that particular statistic have to anything?  At all?

Right, good point, I got carried away there but in my context I'm simply showing that their end product is very similar. Tell me that you disagree because I had the audacity to compare the fan favourite to Barkley and I will understand, it's basically like you have a gun pointed at you, you'll lose many friends if you go against the current of the cult.