13 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

If the front 3 score regularly, and Havertz chips in too we have enough goals in the side. Not every player in the team has to score. Mount can maybe play in games where we have more possession as he is more of a goal threat than Kovacic but he isn't a better player. Kovacic work rate is just as good, wins more tackles, more interceptions. His ability in tight spaces is good, his ability to beat the press and break through the lines is something Mount cant do.

Mount at 20-21 can do most things better than Kovacic, part from running with the ball. But that has often slowed us down and Lampard complained a out how slow we can be.

1 hour ago, coco said:

We need Mount for his dead ball skill, who else will take free kicks ? Plus you get the bonus of a player who, even on a bad day, will do the hard work of chasing, until he drops.

Ziyech 

57 minutes ago, coco said:

Just a shame nothing hardly comes of his breaks, where as Mount does produce when he robs the ball, he's more dangerous, he's already shown that in abundance this season.

 

I still think its all irrelevant because both will be in next seasons plans, don't know about Jorgy, but i'll be surprised if he's still at the club tbh

But it does, it open up the game and space for us, he then passes out wide to the attacking players. Sometimes without Kovacic mazy runs we wouldn't even get the the final third. We would still be passing it around the back or passing back to the goalkeeper and launching long to Giroud.

38 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

But it does, it open up the game and space for us, he then passes out wide to the attacking players. Sometimes without Kovacic mazy runs we wouldn't even get the the final third. We would still be passing it around the back or passing back to the goalkeeper and launching long to Giroud.

Kovacic does his runs mostly around the center of the pitch, in our half so you're basically arguing against your own point here because that position is deeper and it would mean that he would still be replacing Kante and not Mount in that midfield 3 which is what I said in the previous page.

I want Jorginho to stay 

57 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Kovacic does his runs mostly around the center of the pitch, in our half so you're basically arguing against your own point here because that position is deeper and it would mean that he would still be replacing Kante and not Mount in that midfield 3 which is what I said in the previous page.

I already said Kovacic can also play as the deepest midfielder. Read my posts. If he doesn't he can still come narrow pick the ball up and dribble past players. He didn't play centrally last season but still went on mazy runs like the europa league final vsArsenal.

22 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

I already said Kovacic can also play as the deepest midfielder. Read my posts. If he doesn't he can still come narrow pick the ball up and dribble past players. He didn't play centrally last season but still went on mazy runs like the europa league final vsArsenal.

I think people forget that Kovacic is still not in his prime yet, plenty of time to improve imo. I thought he was good last season, where many didn't, but nobody can deny he's massively improved this season. However, not sure if he really fits into Lampards style of play I must admit, in the midfield two he does, the midfield three he doesn't. 

Whereas players like Kante, it's hard to imagine if he can pickup those same levels of performances from two years ago. He'll be 30 next season, coming off the back of lots of injuries, a game that relies a lot on pace, that's not promising. 

4 minutes ago, Slojo said:

I think people forget that Kovacic is still not in his prime yet, plenty of time to improve imo. I thought he was good last season, where many didn't, but nobody can deny he's massively improved this season. However, not sure if he really fits into Lampards style of play I must admit, in the midfield two he does, the midfield three he doesn't. 

Whereas players like Kante, it's hard to imagine if he can pickup those same levels of performances from two years ago. He'll be 30 next season, coming off the back of lots of injuries, a game that relies a lot on pace, that's not promising. 

I think Kante is one of those players with a made up date of birth, except he made himself older not younger. 

1 minute ago, Munkworth said:

I think Kante is one of those players with a made up date of birth, except he made himself older not younger. 

LOL, he was born in France Munk! Very unlikely! 

Just now, Slojo said:

LOL, he was born in France Munk! Very unlikely! 

He intercepted his own birth certificate, he was that good that young. 

1 hour ago, jack_super_class said:

I already said Kovacic can also play as the deepest midfielder. Read my posts. If he doesn't he can still come narrow pick the ball up and dribble past players. He didn't play centrally last season but still went on mazy runs like the europa league final vsArsenal.

Honestly I have seen more than enough games where Kante and Kovacic played together so I hope Havertz doesn't suffer from it, you have been convinced that Mount should be dropped and not Kante which is what you have been arguing for.

Fact is that as it stands Mount is better in the final third than both Kante and Kovacic and Mount has been the machine for Lampards tactic so after the first season he had I don't see why would Lampard drop him in order to once again play Kovacic-Kante and to put most of the offensive work to Havertz, it makes no sense.

Lampard isn't buying Havertz in order to drop Mount but to build a partnership there, they complement each other on paper perfectly as well, as someone else has said before so...No I'm not dropping Mount in that midfield.

Edited August 10, 20205 yr by Gol15

22 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Honestly I have seen more than enough games where Kante and Kovacic played together so I hope Havertz doesn't suffer from it, you have been convinced that Mount should be dropped and not Kante which is what you have been arguing for.

Fact is that as it stands Mount is better in the final third than both Kante and Kovacic and Mount has been the machine for Lampards tactic so after the first season he had I don't see why would Lampard drop him in order to once again play Kovacic-Kante and to put most of the offensive work to Havertz, it makes no sense.

Lampard isn't buying Havertz in order to drop Mount but to build a partnership there, they complement each other on paper perfectly as well as someone else has said before so...No I'm not dropping Mount in that midfield.

I dont want Kante dropped no, i want him infront of the back 4 so he stop counter attacks, use his speed and protect our fragile centre backs. He can also incept. Kovacic for me is a better all round player than mount especially in defence and Havertz is more creative than Mount so thats why i would start him over mount. I think the midfield of Kante Kovacic and Havertz has a nice balance to it. Mount is a nice footballer and he works hard and he does press really well but he isn't that creative with the ball. In a midfield 3 i prefer to have 2 more defensive ones and 1 more technical creative player which would be Havertz.

Edited August 10, 20205 yr by jack_super_class

Just now, jack_super_class said:

I dont want Kante dropped no, i want him infront of the back 4 so he stop counter attacks, use his speed and protect our fragile centre backs. He can also incept. Kovacic for me is a better all round player than mount especially in defence and Havertz is more creative than Mount so thats why i would start him over mount. I think the midfield of Kante Kovacic and Havertz has a nice balance to it. Mount is a nice footballer and he works hard and he does press really well but he isn't that creative with the ball.

Sorry but I simply can't see Mount being dropped, you're basically saying, lets still be average and Havertz will make up for it... We are a more balanced squad with Mount and Havertz and either Kovacic and Kante behind them in comparison to Mount not playing.

You're comparing Mount to Havertz which is pointless since I wouldn't be dropping Havertz in any scenario, Lampard has been looking to play with 2 number 8's and Mount is a better number 8 than both Kovacic and Kante. Mount as a 20-21 year old played 37 games in his first PL season, the reason why Lampard is buying Havertz is not because he wants to drop Mount, I think that if Lampard had to pick just 1 player in the whole starting lineup from this season to keep he would pick Mount, that's how much I'm convinced that your take on this is simply not happening any time soon.

Mount has made more assists, more goals and has created more big chances than Kovacic and Kante COMBINED !!!
That's how much better he is as a number 8 in comparison and he's just 21 y/o. To drop him from becoming amazing and to spend 80m on Havertz just because we can afford it or whatever, would be the stupidest thing ever, end of story.

13 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

1.Sorry but I simply can't see Mount being dropped, you're basically saying, lets still be average and Havertz will make up for it... We are a more balanced squad with Mount and Havertz and either Kovacic and Kante behind them in comparison to Mount not playing.

2.You're comparing Mount to Havertz which is pointless since I wouldn't be dropping Havertz in any scenario, Lampard has been looking to play with 2 number 8's and Mount is a better number 8 than both Kovacic and Kante. Mount as a 20-21 year old played 37 games in his first PL season, the reason why Lampard is buying Havertz is not because he wants to drop Mount, I think that if Lampard had to pick just 1 player in the whole starting lineup from this season to keep he would pick Mount, that's how much I'm convinced that your take on this is simply not happening any time soon.

3..Mount has made more assists, more goals and has created more big chances than Kovacic and Kante COMBINED !!!
That's how much better he is as a number 8 in comparison and he's just 21 y/o. To drop him from becoming amazing and to spend 80m on Havertz just because we can afford it or whatever, would be the stupidest thing ever, end of story.

1. I never said Mount would be dropped, i was saying what i would like to see. Not sure why you cant understand that. How is Werner as CF, Pulisic on the left and Ziyech on the right with a midfield three of Kante Kovacic and Havertz average? what are you talking about?. I dont want to see 4231 i want to see 433.

2. I already said i reckon some games Lampard will play both Havertz and Mount next to Kante, why dont you read my posts and think before you type?. Lampard this season has changed alot even the system depending on the opposition strengths so in some games against better teams i dont think he will play both of Havertz and Mount, he might bring in Kovacic as i have said he is better in defence.

3..I already said not every player in your team has to be creative and score etc. Liverpool midfield three dont score much or create. There front 3 do that, and there fullbacks create. You can bring something to the team without scoring or assisting. I would expect Mount to score and setup more than Kante, different players. Plus Kante been injured most of the season. Mount hasnt been amazing either, hes been good overall but hes had some bad games too which is what i would expect in a young player playing his first season in the premier league. Kovacic i think will in our player of the season, hes my pick anyway.

4 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

1. I never said Mount would be dropped, i was saying what i would like to see. Not sure why you cant understand that. How is Werner as CF, Pulisic on the left and Ziyech on the right with a midfield three of Kante Kovacic and Havertz average? what are you talking about?. I dont want to see 4231 i want to see 433.

2. I already said i reckon some games Lampard will play both Havertz and Mount next to Kante, why dont you read my posts and think before you type?. Lampard this season has changed alot even the system depending on the opposition strengths so in some games against better teams i dont think he will play both of Havertz and Mount, he might bring in Kovacic as i have said he is better in defence.

3..I already said not every player in your team has to be creative and score etc. Liverpool midfield three dont score much or create. There front 3 do that, and there fullbacks create. You can bring something to the team without scoring or assisting. I would expect Mount to score and setup more than Kante, different players. Plus Kante been injured most of the season. Mount hasnt been amazing either, hes been good overall but hes had some bad games too which is what i would expect in a young player playing his first season in the premier league. Kovacic i think will in our player of the season, hes my pick anyway.

1. I posted Mount and Havertz and behind them Kante as a go-to starting lineup.

2. You answer with replacing Mount with Kovacic there.

3. I say that Kovacic isn't better in that position and if he were to replace someone it would be Kante and not Mount

4. You keep trying to make a point how Kovacic can do the same role as Mount there and how you would drop Mount since we have Havertz

5. I don't see it and don't agree.

Did I miss anything? Mount is in the starting lineup by default for me and not a sub for Kovacic. 

12 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

1. I posted Mount and Havertz and behind them Kante as a go-to starting lineup.

2. You answer with replacing Mount with Kovacic there.

3. I say that Kovacic isn't better in that position and if he were to replace someone it would be Kante and not Mount

4. You keep trying to make a point how Kovacic can do the same role as Mount there and how you would drop Mount since we have Havertz

5. I don't see it and don't agree.

Did I miss anything? Mount is in the starting lineup by default for me and not a sub for Kovacic. 

And you said not playing Mount would make us average, which is silly. I never said Kovacic can do the same job as Mount. You can play in the same position as someone and be a different type of player.

I mean you said Mount been amazing this season, just isnt true.

3 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

And you said not playing Mount would make us average, which is silly. I never said Kovacic can do the same job as Mount. You can play in the same position as someone and be a different type of player.

I mean you said Mount been amazing this season, just isnt true.

As it stands, meaning if Kovacic doesn't improve, we have already seen how average Kante-Kovacic are together in the midfield. You are already saying that Kovacic would play that number 8 position different, how different... Different isn't how Lampard wants it, what is there to discuss, I don't know.

Considering that it's his first season and that he's so young, he had a great season and his influence was much larger than anyone thought it would be. The simple fact that he's so young like many others but that he never had been injured while so many have had injuries is good enough, but he has shown that he's already a key part for the future.

11 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

As it stands, meaning if Kovacic doesn't improve, we have already seen how average Kante-Kovacic are together in the midfield. You are already saying that Kovacic would play that number 8 position different, how different... Different isn't how Lampard wants it, what is there to discuss, I don't know.

Considering that it's his first season and that he's so young, he had a great season and his influence was much larger than anyone thought it would be. The simple fact that he's so young like many others but that he never had been injured while so many have had injuries is good enough, but he has shown that he's already a key part for the future.

We have seen plenty of different midfields from Frank as he trying to find the right balance and combination So he keeps swapping and changing. Same with the centre backs. They have all looked average not just Kante and Kovacic. But i get you want to post something to suit your point. Seeing as Kovacic has been our best player this season i would start him. 

I agree with what you said on Mount, but he hasn't been amazing which is what you previously said.And i dont think him not in the team means we are average.

1 minute ago, jack_super_class said:

We have seen plenty of different midfields from Frank as he trying to find the right balance and combination So he keeps swapping and changing. Same with the centre backs. They have all looked average not just Kante and Kovacic. But i get you want to post something to suit your point. Seeing as Kovacic has been our best player this season i would start him. 

I agree with what you said on Mount, but he hasn't been amazing which is what you previously said.And i dont think him not in the team means we are average.

OK others have been average as well, but the one "ingredient" that Lampard never actually changed this whole season was Mount.

So when you consider how important he has been, it's more logical to drop Kante and play Kovacic there instead, I don't think I can name 1 thing that Kante has done better than Kovacic this season even if I were to try really hard.

52 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

We have seen plenty of different midfields from Frank as he trying to find the right balance and combination So he keeps swapping and changing. Same with the centre backs. They have all looked average not just Kante and Kovacic. But i get you want to post something to suit your point. Seeing as Kovacic has been our best player this season i would start him. 

I agree with what you said on Mount, but he hasn't been amazing which is what you previously said.And i dont think him not in the team means we are average.

I agree, I do like Mason Mount but I find him quite overrated on this forum. He doesn't do enough on the ball but he is a good squad player, and he's really young, got potential. 

He does suit Lampard's style of play more than Kovacic does though, Kovacic just isn't a player who plays behind the striker. 

4 minutes ago, Slojo said:

I agree, I do like Mason Mount but I find him quite overrated on this forum. He doesn't do enough on the ball but he is a good squad player, and he's really young, got potential. 

He does suit Lampard's style of play more than Kovacic does though, Kovacic just isn't a player who plays behind the striker. 

I really like Kovacic but he just lacks any form of killer instinct. He is basically shot intolerant.

2 hours ago, WhiteWall said:

I really like Kovacic but he just lacks any form of killer instinct. He is basically shot intolerant.

This is also why I can't see how Kovacic would be the better option as a number 8 in comparison to Mount.

If Kovacic adds just a little bit extra to his game, call it "the audacity to try and score from outside the box"... He would be a complete player, I have no doubts about it.

He wouldn't need to score many goals either, but just having that as an option, it would mean that the opposition would have in their minds that he is actually a goal threat and that would be enough for him to further utilize his dribbling skills.
And as a result, there would always be a free man as an easy option to pass to, so even if he doesn't see the final ball he would still be creating the creator of the goal.

So from your argument we have 2 advanced midfielders in Kovacic and Mount. Ones strengths are control of the ball, a great outlet for the defenders to pass through, always available and able to open space for others. The others strengths are outstanding pressing of the ball, able to get into the box with very well timed runs and has a good shot on him, an eye for goal. Its almost as if this kind of partnership could complement each other as their strengths are different, or do you want a team filled with players that all do the exact same thing?

Mount complements someone like Havertz and Kovacic complements both of them. If nothing changes, Kovacic simply isn't a position 8 player and can't replace Mount and Havertz in that position, and he never played for us in that position this season anyway but we did have Mount and Barkley as the two 8's.

By default that puts Kovacic as a number 6 and even if he does start shooting more often he would still naturally want to play deeper like a Xavi Alonso type of a player. I always go back to what I said in the previous page, that Kovacic simply starts as the defensive midfielder ahead of Kante and plays with Mount that brings a lot of energy and with Havertz that can make a killer ball at any time.

So I'm not even trying to suggest Jorginho here, I'm making an argument that Kante is the one that should be dropped and Kovacic should take his place. Statistically I don't even know if Kante has 1 thing over Kovacic this season.

I think both Kova and Mount can get sufficient minutes and be valuable members of the squad and this is down to the following reasons:

1. Kante's recent fitness troubles

2. Quantity of games next season

3. Kova & Mount's complimentary style of play (Both compliment each other in midfield)

4. Kova & Mount's versatile style of play

In addition to this I truly believe that both Mount and Kova operate at optimum levels playing once a week as opposed to 2 or 3 games a week, the style of play both offer is high energy, high pressure which results in them expending more energy than your average player. Therefore when they are not 100% they tend to appear a little anonymous, I dont think its a case of either or as I personally think both are top class squad options.