6 hours ago, Slojo said:

I think there has been a significant improvement from Kovacic this season, than there was last season, especially in end product. Remember his ball to Kante against City? He's produced stuff like that all season. I think you're being incredibly harsh on his end product and basing it after just the last game. 

He's got excellent stats this season compared to last that show his end product has definitely improved and he's getting the ball forward more. I know stats are not the be all end all, and I wish he would shoot more in situations against United, had two opportunities where the players leaned off him and he chose to slide it in. I think we're much better with him in the side than without it, even if he doesn't exactly have the vision and long range passing of Cesc Fabregas. 

Slojo it’s true what you and the stats say - Kova does a lot more key / incisive passes (whatever you want to call it) than he’s getting credit for. 
 

We tend to be a bit harsh as fans, as our expectations tend to be unrealistically  high, which is only natural/human. Let’s not forget that football is a sport where “end product”- whether a killer final ball or a goal - is elusive. It’s reflected in the average score lines vs other sports  - rugby, basketball, etc ... If every time someone on a match thread said “willian/giroud/Mount should be scoring there” or “kova needs to find that killer pass there” it was indeed a goal/killer ball, we’d be scoring 5-10 goals every match.

I still like to point out that ManU had their best chance of the game because Kovacic ran off his position and failed to pass to his teammates. That was a simple pass as well. Again the run was excellent but the pass wasn't. He gave the ball away to Fernandes who immediately found Rashford in space Mateo being off his position half a pitch. He had these moments all season long. I am not putting all this down on him, he should get cover because he made an attacking move just feeling people 'forget' these situations because his movement is so silky. I bet Frank didn't like that. 

However I feel he is a special player and in a year or two he is one of our main men. 

8 hours ago, evissy said:

I still like to point out that ManU had their best chance of the game because Kovacic ran off his position and failed to pass to his teammates. That was a simple pass as well. Again the run was excellent but the pass wasn't. He gave the ball away to Fernandes who immediately found Rashford in space Mateo being off his position half a pitch. He had these moments all season long. I am not putting all this down on him, he should get cover because he made an attacking move just feeling people 'forget' these situations because his movement is so silky. I bet Frank didn't like that. 

However I feel he is a special player and in a year or two he is one of our main men. 

That's a lazy argument, you can't blame that on him. You can blame him for picking the wrong option, but you can't blame him for what they did on the counter after that, it's not like he lost the ball on the halfway line and they had a chance after that, it was right outside their box... 

I think we are better side when he is on the pitch. He's certainly entertaining when he runs with the ball through the oppositions midfield. His acceleration with the ball through the midfield isn't accidental. He is quick to see space and then turns into it with the ball frequently wrong footing the opposition. We need players who can open up quick attacks from midfield and he fits that bill. He's coming into his own right now and I'm convinced that if he can just be a bit more intelligent with his final ball he could become a real force in the premier league.

He strikes me as an intelligent guy who is just building his confidence with every minute he spends on the pitch.

The future is bright for Mateo.

We all get it that he is good but he is not that good as some people want us to believe. Otherwise he would have never left Real Madrid. 

I actually think he only goes on those runs when he pressed and no pass is available and then dribbles forward at speed.

It is very entertaining yet also agree instead of leading an attack he loses the ball in the other half.

I suspect when dribbling at that speed he is only focused on controlling the ball rather than what is about him.

Think he needs coaching here, either to draw the foul or offload so we can make use of this ability. 

The rest of his pressing game seems really good and he has scored a couple though similar strikes from the edge of the box and no goals from his dribbles. 

 

35 minutes ago, Droopy said:

We all get it that he is good but he is not that good as some people want us to believe. Otherwise he would have never left Real Madrid. 

How about that makalele fella? Was he any good? 

5 minutes ago, dkw said:

How about that makalele fella? Was he any good? 

He was rubbish. Same as that Geremi bloke. 

19 minutes ago, dkw said:

How about that makalele fella? Was he any good? 

Not comparable but a good try :)

Just now, Gol15 said:

Not comparable but a good try 🙂

Why is it not comparable? 

3 minutes ago, dkw said:

Why is it not comparable? 

Makelele was a standard choice for Real Madrid he wasn't a bench warmer and he handed in his transfer request after he was denied a better contract...His departure of Real Madrid meant the end of that era of the Galactios, a big mistake for them. So...yea. There's that.

2 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Makelele was a standard choice for Real Madrid he wasn't a bench warmer and he handed in his transfer request after he was denied a better contract...His departure of Real Madrid meant the end of that era of the Galactios, a big mistake for them. So...yea. There's that.

What has any of that got to do with his statement of "Otherwise he would have never left Real Madrid"

Therefore in his tiny mind makalele obviously wasnt very good either.

Edited July 21, 20205 yr by dkw

7 minutes ago, dkw said:

What has any of that got to do with his statement of "Otherwise he would have never left Real Madrid"

He was very underpaid, asked for a better contract and got denied ---> handed in the transfer request. Not the same circumstances at all, had Real Madrid been less cocky they would have kept him but they wanted to spend big wages on Beckham and what not. Kovacic was already here on loan, he was basically listed as not needed for Real Madrid, I don't think they ever looked back thinking they made a mistake by selling him to us, but it's pretty known that the collapse of those Galactios started when Makelele left, they let go of their engine for a shiny hood. 

I googled it fast so youre welcome: http://soccerfootballwhatever.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-beginning-of-end-of-galacticos-in.html

Edited July 21, 20205 yr by Gol15

3 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

He was very underpaid, asked for a better contract and got denied ---> handed in the transfer request. Not the same circumstances at all, had Real Madrid been less cocky they would have kept him but they wanted to spend big wages on Beckham and what not. Kovacic was already here on loan, he was basically listed as not needed for Real Madrid, I don't think they ever looked back thinking they made a mistake by selling him to us, but it's pretty known that the collapse of those Galactios started when Makelele left, they let go of their engine for a shiny hood. 

I googled it fast so youre welcome: http://soccerfootballwhatever.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-beginning-of-end-of-galacticos-in.html

You're not arguing against his point.  He wasn't saying Kovacic is as good as Makelele.  He was saying Real Madrid has no problem letting good players leave even if they are literally the best in the world at what they do, so the argument of "if they we're so good they'd never have left Real Madrid" is rubbish.

Real Madrid has seen plenty of top tier players leave and go have great success elsewhere......Makelele is just one of the best examples. Kovacic might well be in a similar mold given time.......and how Real Madrid does without Kovacic has no bearing on how good Kovacic is/will be.

15 minutes ago, Barry Bridges said:

You're not arguing against his point.  He wasn't saying Kovacic is as good as Makelele.  He was saying Real Madrid has no problem letting good players leave even if they are literally the best in the world at what they do, so the argument of "if they we're so good they'd never have left Real Madrid" is rubbish.

Real Madrid has seen plenty of top tier players leave and go have great success elsewhere......Makelele is just one of the best examples. Kovacic might well be in a similar mold given time.......and how Real Madrid does without Kovacic has no bearing on how good Kovacic is/will be.

If he was as good as people want us to believe (which has been argued during the course of this season that Kovacic is the best midfielder in the whole PL) he would have never left Real Madrid;

1 hour ago, Droopy said:

We all get it that he is good but he is not that good as some people want us to believe. Otherwise he would have never left Real Madrid. 

Makelele was a good but he left Real Madrid...Was Makelele not that good then or;

57 minutes ago, dkw said:

How about that makalele fella? Was he any good? 

So I don't think it's comparable since Makelele was a key player there while Kovacic was warming the bench and we got him on loan at first, it's not like Real Madrid got rid of Casemiro, they loaned us a player that wasn't in their plans and later on agreed to sell him as he still didn't have a real place in Real Madrid. Their circumstances were very much different, we didn't gamble much when we signed Makelele, we gambled more when we signed Kovacic. 

If Salah had scored 30 goals for us we wouldn't have let him go, but he was pretty average when he was with us. Real Madrid wouldn't have sold us Kovacic if he had found a place in that team, it was rather difficult for many coaches to find the best position for him as he clearly has a lot of quality but lacks a special role.

1 hour ago, Droopy said:

We all get it that he is good but he is not that good as some people want us to believe. Otherwise he would have never left Real Madrid. 

He left because he wanted to play... Tell me: who would play in RM? There is no much midfielders that could replace trio of RM in that time. I can say, only few of them out of all CMs in the world. But that doesnt mean he is not that good.. By the way CR isnt that good how others are talking... If he is that good he would never left RM. 

 Yeah this “wasn’t good enough for RM so why’s everyone raving about him” line of argument is pretty silly. It’s not like he joined coz he wasn’t good enough for Everton or something. Maybe just ignore the Real chapter altogether. Better still, assume he never went there but instead stayed at Inter a couple more years, improved and then we bought him from there as we rated him and paid decent money. I suppose this would have still made him “not good enough for Real” but I’m pretty sure nobody would argue the point as it would be absurd. After all, it’s not a yardstick by which we measure any of our other players.  “Willian - great game today but it still wouldn’t get him into Real’s starting lineup.” “Great tackle by Zouma but he’s no Varane”....

Kovacic made a poor career choice going to Real so early. He wasn’t ready, and this meant lack of match practice, arrested development (I talked about that somewhere in this thread). In a sense, he’s making up for lost time since he joined us. Good thing he left when he did as not doing so may have wrecked his career, and an even better thing that he ended up with us as he’s  been a great signing.

Edited July 21, 20205 yr by Dean

There was a moment in the second half on Sunday which typified his performances for me.

He showed all the lovely technical ability we all know he has by running at pace past a couple of UTD players taking him to a yard or so outside the box. He had a clear shot at goal available to him but continued to run across the box and ended up losing the ball.

As another poster said about him recently,  when he gets near the box he's like a golfer with the Yips. 

Sooooo frustrating!

 

15 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Makelele was a standard choice for Real Madrid he wasn't a bench warmer and he handed in his transfer request after he was denied a better contract...His departure of Real Madrid meant the end of that era of the Galactios, a big mistake for them. So...yea. There's that.

Yeah but tbf Kovacic at one point had the highest assists there, and Madrid were only happy to let him go because they had the best midfielders in the world. I mean it would be hard to fit him in when you have Kroos and Modric ahead of him, that's not a huge insult. 

That's a lazy argument, you can't blame that on him. You can blame him for picking the wrong option, but you can't blame him for what they did on the counter after that, it's not like he lost the ball on the halfway line and they had a chance after that, it was right outside their box... 

You can't? His job is to cover for defence as well as moving the ball forward. He took that risk and fumbled a simple pass. If he made that pass and we scored I would have lauded that a world class move. That didn't happen. Football at the highest level is about details. ManU is all about their CA prowess. Mateo should know he can't let that happen. David Luiz does it and we all tell him he is mental waltzing about so deep in the attack.

Again I have to end this in a positive and say in a long run his team mates would realize he is making a run so let's cover. When we are constantly changing personnel and system we won't have that layer in our play. It comes with time.

Brilliant talent, not yet world class or our most important or influential player.

19 minutes ago, evissy said:

You can't? His job is to cover for defence as well as moving the ball forward. He took that risk and fumbled a simple pass. If he made that pass and we scored I would have lauded that a world class move. That didn't happen. Football at the highest level is about details. ManU is all about their CA prowess. Mateo should know he can't let that happen. David Luiz does it and we all tell him he is mental waltzing about so deep in the attack.

Again I have to end this in a positive and say in a long run his team mates would realize he is making a run so let's cover. When we are constantly changing personnel and system we won't have that layer in our play. It comes with time.

Brilliant talent, not yet world class or our most important or influential player.

Uhm no, if someone makes a wrong pass on the edge of the oppositions box, they can blamed if the other team goes on to score? Oh come on... You're just nit picking now. If he wasn't in that position in the first place you would be complaining that he doesn't get himself involved in the final 3rd enough. 

His stats and contributions this season have been fine. If he lost the ball in our own half and they went on to score, then yes, you would have a point because that's clearly wreckless, but in the final 3rd? No, you're just nit picking. 

This thread has to be one of the most split on here. I do think a lot of people overestimate how good a player he is. He’s certainly not world class in my opinion, but he is a very good player. If he could get that end product then who knows? But if you’re a CM that isn’t in a defensive role or Registra etc you should at least be chipping in with a few goals and assists here and there. Kova doesn’t do that and it’s something he really needs to improve which is certainly possible - he’s still 26 which surprised me as I actually thought he looked older!
I do wonder where he’ll fit if we go with a sitting CM and two attacking 8’s, it’ll be interesting to see how we line up next season! If we get Havertz we should have some really good depth in midfield and attack.

he needs to shoot more - my only critique of him really.

stepped up this year for us in a big way