47 minutes ago, evissy said:

I still don't know what Kovacic is? Maybe I look at the wrong things. Kante makes recoveries and Mount makes attacking moves. Kovacic made recoveries in the second half and he was once of the brightest players on the pitch. 

And on top of that I like him. He look the business but he is a bit frustrating closer to the box and he makes stupid runs sometimes in wrong places. Maybe I have too high hopes of him. Probably. 

Havertz has a track record of making goals, Kovacic doesn't have that. Against Tottenham I felt we needed that player with a knack of entering the box and finishing the move. 

We played against a Mourinho team that was parking the bus and waiting for the counter. Every Chelsea fan knows that it's very hard to score against such a team, because we were that team at one point. It's easy to underrate Spuds, but you can't just throw additional attacking players onto the pitch and assume we would've scored while keeping a clean sheet. It's not that easy and I honestly think we would've been in trouble if Kai started yesterday.

Kovacic has a serious engine, can keep up at the very highest level of football against ANY side and does a lot of defensive work. I think he showed last season that you don't have to be a scoring midfielder to be considered a serious asset. There's a reason he was the only player that didn't get completely dominated against Bayern. But I realize people will look to criticize him for everything he does this season because they want Havertz to play. Which is why he was singled out in the match day thread by some even though he was one of our best players even in the first half.

33 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

We played against a Mourinho team that was parking the bus and waiting for the counter. Every Chelsea fan knows that it's very hard to score against such a team, because we were that team at one point. It's easy to underrate Spuds, but you can't just throw additional attacking players onto the pitch and assume we would've scored while keeping a clean sheet. It's not that easy and I honestly think we would've been in trouble if Kai started yesterday.

Kovacic has a serious engine, can keep up at the very highest level of football against ANY side and does a lot of defensive work. I think he showed last season that you don't have to be a scoring midfielder to be considered a serious asset. There's a reason he was the only player that didn't get completely dominated against Bayern. But I realize people will look to criticize him for everything he does this season because they want Havertz to play. Which is why he was singled out in the match day thread by some even though he was one of our best players even in the first half.

The reason we bought Werner, Havertz, Pulisic, Ziyech is because we need that extra bit of quality to break stubborn defences. The new boys have succeeded very well. We are exceeding our Xg in most games. Yesterday Ziyech and Werner couldn't deliver so we ended up with a draw. No shame because Spurs are defending like JM wants them to. He is master at that. 

For me the balance in the squad's been very good and in this one Kai vs Kova would have been with the idea which of them can help to score a goal. Havertz is not leaking goals although he is not as good as Kova in recoveries and defending in general. But Havertz has a pretty good track record in creating goals. 

This discussion is useless and I started it so sorry for it...

1 minute ago, evissy said:

The reason we bought Werner, Havertz, Pulisic, Ziyech is because we need that extra bit of quality to break stubborn defences. The new boys have succeeded very well. We are exceeding our Xg in most games. Yesterday Ziyech and Werner couldn't deliver so we ended up with a draw. No shame because Spurs are defending like JM wants them to. He is master at that. 

For me the balance in the squad's been very good and in this one Kai vs Kova would have been with the idea which of them can help to score a goal. Havertz is not leaking goals although he is not as good as Kova in recoveries and defending in general. But Havertz has a pretty good track record in creating goals. 

This discussion is useless and I started it so sorry for it...

I think you are being incredibly harsh on Kova, we absolutely dominated Spurs in that 2nd half and that was largely due to Kovacic. The instructions were clear that Ziyech was asked to occupy the half spaces left by Hojberg and Sissoko and almost played as a Number 10, this meant Kova had to cover James and did an exceptional job at nullifying Reguilon and Son not to mention that Ziyech was already on a yellow.

As a result of this change Ziyech had the best opportunity of the game which he slashed at and James was given more freedom to get to the touchline and whip the balls in at a better angle, rather then Kova it was Ziyech who was occupying positions that Kai normally operates in.

I am probably too harsh on him. He does nothing for us in terms of creating goals but he is at home in the central area of the pitch. I should concede the idea that he could create goals for us. Not his job really.

His footballing style is very pleasing to the eye. This is why I sometimes feel he is lauded for wrong reasons. 

1 minute ago, evissy said:

I am probably too harsh on him. He does nothing for us in terms of creating goals but he is at home in the central area of the pitch. I should concede the idea that he could create goals for us. Not his job really.

His footballing style is very pleasing to the eye. This is why I sometimes feel he is lauded for wrong reasons. 

He had a good game yesterday, he was running a lot and pressing well without the ball in the first half and then he made good runs in the second half. 

Kante on the other hand, very average. Both Kovacic and Jorginho have been at the top of the league when it came down to their duties but not Kante, he's still just a shadow of himself and this new role is basically limiting his best qualities.

53 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Kante on the other hand, very average. Both Kovacic and Jorginho have been at the top of the league when it came down to their duties but not Kante, he's still just a shadow of himself and this new role is basically limiting his best qualities.

Have you watched Kante much this season? He's back to his best and in recent weeks he's been our most consistent performer. No idea where this is coming from.

1 minute ago, Shweaves said:

Have you watched Kante much this season? He's back to his best and in recent weeks he's been our most consistent performer. No idea where this is coming from.

Yesterday he had 1 clearance, 1 interception and 3 tackles.

That's not prime Kante to me, at some point Ndombele was doing laps around him and in the second half he couldn't push out a young Reguilon off the ball. Kovacic did way more yesterday!

 

6 hours ago, evissy said:

People value different things in footballers. For me in the first half Kova was useless. He gave nothing to our game. We had 3 midfielders where Mount was the only one who tried to make attacking moves. Kante is useless with the ball. For me Havertz would have been better in his place. 

I am talking about solely this Tottenham game. We knew they would sit deep all game. What does Kova bring? Nothing really. Our problem before the game and during it was the quest to break their stubborn defence and to take care they don't break us on counter. We managed to keep them at bay but didn't create that much. 

Kova was very energetic in the second half and made some great recoveries that apparently merited him the motm. If anyone scores in the game he takes the motm. Mount was pretty close with his shot. 

Again no disrespect to Kovacic but if Havertz didn't have the covid19 he would have started this one 100%.

It might sound random, but I can see why you have that like to post ratio with some of the things you come out with. 

What on earth were you watching? It sounds like you just go by reputation since your only ever response about Kante starting is "hes world class" regurgitated over and over again. 

The whole team bar Abraham and Ziyech (maybe Werner) played well, no complaints. Kovacic played very well, Kante was really struggling with N'dombele at one point in the first 20 minutes until Kovacic moved deeper and helped him out. His retention in the 2nd half was superb that Spurs couldn't get the ball. Did he release that killer ball? Well no, but who did? Ziyech had a poor game and couldn't unlock the Spurs defence, Mount who also had a great game wasn't exactly breaking the Tottenham defence either. 

I honestly don't know what you watch. 

2 hours ago, Shweaves said:

Have you watched Kante much this season? He's back to his best and in recent weeks he's been our most consistent performer. No idea where this is coming from.

Kante is playing well, especially in this role. But I know what Gol means (slightly), in the 2nd half he gave the ball away a few times on the edge of the Tottenham box when he trying to get involved in the play. The role he's playing at now he's a beast in, 2nd half especially he didn't give Tottenham any chance to breathe. 

 

2 hours ago, Shweaves said:

Have you watched Kante much this season? He's back to his best and in recent weeks he's been our most consistent performer. No idea where this is coming from.

Because he loves Jorginho thats why.

1 minute ago, jack_super_class said:

Because he loves Jorginho thats why.

I like Jorginho aswell, but I recognise that Kante in this role is better for the team. Jorginho although very underappreciated by fans, could do better elsewhere I feel, we don't play to his strengths. 

Right now, we're playing to Kante's strengths and it's working, because when we weren't Kante was the worst out of the bunch. 

3 hours ago, evissy said:

I am probably too harsh on him. He does nothing for us in terms of creating goals but he is at home in the central area of the pitch. I should concede the idea that he could create goals for us. Not his job really.

His footballing style is very pleasing to the eye. This is why I sometimes feel he is lauded for wrong reasons. 

Liverpool midfield 3 are not particularly creative and score many goals, doesn't change the fact they are all very good players. Also didn't hinder them winning the league and champions league. 

Just now, Slojo said:

I like Jorginho aswell, but I recognise that Kante in this role is better for the team. Jorginho although very underappreciated by fans, could do better elsewhere I feel, we don't play to his strengths. 

Right now, we're playing to Kante's strengths and it's working, because when we weren't Kante was the worst out of the bunch. 

I think Jorginho is a good player, not suited for the premier league though for me. I much prefer Kante playing there too. I feel that we don't miss Jorginho in any way, actually there is one thing, that great first time pass he does sometimes around the corner or over the top of the defence.

12 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

I think Jorginho is a good player, not suited for the premier league though for me. I much prefer Kante playing there too. I feel that we don't miss Jorginho in any way, actually there is one thing, that great first time pass he does sometimes around the corner or over the top of the defence.

We're definitely playing at our best with Kante staying deep and covering the back 4. 

Although Kante's best performances have came from him in the box to box role, but under Lampard we're a team that has too much of the ball for him to thrive there. When he's restricted to purely defensive duties and keeps it simple he's a beast, I'm glad we've finally found a place for him. I still highly rate Jorginho, but I want whats best for the team. Kovacic will rotate with Havertz, that's good squad depth. 

Edited November 30, 20205 yr by Slojo

1 hour ago, Slojo said:

Kante is playing well, especially in this role. But I know what Gol means (slightly), in the 2nd half he gave the ball away a few times on the edge of the Tottenham box when he trying to get involved in the play. The role he's playing at now he's a beast in, 2nd half especially he didn't give Tottenham any chance to breathe. 

 

That role limits Kante, his best game comes when he has more freedom. IMO Kovacic should be played there where Kante is played now. I said it yesterday in the match thread, on paper our strongest lineup in the midfield to me is:

Pulisic - Werner - Ziyech

        Mount - Havertz

             Kovacic

I would love to see this one day.

Kante had 1 clearance 1 interception and 3 tackles, that doesn't make him world class in this position he's just playing an average game, but put him in a more free role where he can run and he wins the ball like vs Rennes and we win the game, or he gets an assist like vs Sheffield.
When Spurs had that counter Kante was nowhere to be found and that ended with a shot going wide, he almost slipped as the last man just like he did last season against Arsenal but Mendy saved him, he isn't really that secure as he seems... I would wait before calling him a beast.

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

That role limits Kante, his best game comes when he has more freedom. IMO Kovacic should be played there where Kante is played now. I said it yesterday in the match thread, on paper our strongest lineup in the midfield to me is:

Pulisic - Werner - Ziyech

        Mount - Havertz

             Kovacic

I would love to see this one day.

Kante had 1 clearance 1 interception and 3 tackles, that doesn't make him world class in this position he's just playing an average game, but put him in a more free role where he can run and he wins the ball like vs Rennes and we win the game, or he gets an assist like vs Sheffield.
When Spurs had that counter Kante was nowhere to be found and that ended with a shot going wide, he almost slipped as the last man just like he did last season against Arsenal but Mendy saved him, he isn't really that secure as he seems... I would wait before calling him a beast.

Kante just isn't good enough to rely on when we dominate possession, he doesn't move the ball fast enough and just lacks the creativity. With the way we are playing right now, this role suits him, for our defensive cover he's good. It's the only position he plays in that suits Lampards style. 

1 minute ago, Slojo said:

Kante just isn't good enough to rely on when we dominate possession, he doesn't move the ball fast enough and just lacks the creativity. With the way we are playing right now, this role suits him, for our defensive cover he's good. It's the only position he plays in that suits Lampards style. 

Maybe but that role still limits him, he naturally thrives when he can run around and hunt down the ball, while someone else is protecting that area. Him being more disciplined as the deepest midfielder takes away a bit from his game even if he can play simple passes and cover that area, he had the the most significant impact while playing more forward where he could close down players right in their tracks.

 

2 hours ago, Slojo said:

It might sound random, but I can see why you have that like to post ratio with some of the things you come out with. 

What on earth were you watching? It sounds like you just go by reputation since your only ever response about Kante starting is "hes world class" regurgitated over and over again. 

The whole team bar Abraham and Ziyech (maybe Werner) played well, no complaints. Kovacic played very well, Kante was really struggling with N'dombele at one point in the first 20 minutes until Kovacic moved deeper and helped him out. His retention in the 2nd half was superb that Spurs couldn't get the ball. Did he release that killer ball? Well no, but who did? Ziyech had a poor game and couldn't unlock the Spurs defence, Mount who also had a great game wasn't exactly breaking the Tottenham defence either. 

I honestly don't know what you watch. 

I watch mostly snooker and Liverpool cause they hot. Chelsea not that much. Nor football. Maybe that is it Slojo. You are such insightful and sharp you probably know the answer. 

Kovacic for me is a bit of a mystery. On the other hand you love to see him play, make that darting run and then just seconds later he has no idea what to do with the ball. Sometimes I feel his mates don't know what he is up to. He has all the skills to control any midfield but his footballing brain let's him down. 

Anyway I think he was our best player in the second half against Tottenham but a bit frustrating in the first. All in all I love to have him at Chelsea but still I have this identity issue with the player. Clearly this is only me because people love him here. Only positive. 

He was great again tonight. Yes, his decision making in attacking areas is a bit iffy and I think he overplays too often when we need to clear the ball, but I think his form has picked up again since he got back in the team. I still think Kante, Mount, Havertz will be our best midfield going forward, but if one of them drop their form, Kovacic can slot in and take their place no problem. 

Kova is class.

Just now, Scott Harris said:

He was great again tonight. Yes, his decision making in attacking areas is a bit iffy and I think he overplays too often when we need to clear the ball, but I think his form has picked up again since he got back in the team. I still think Kante, Mount, Havertz will be our best midfield going forward, but if one of them drop their form, Kovacic can slot in and take their place no problem. 

Couldn't agree more, sublime ball to Giroud, something he needs to do more. There were a few moments when he had an opportunity to shoot and either hesitated then shot or tried to overplay it instead. Really lacks those attacking midfielder instincts at times. 

But he definitely has a future here I reckon, he's a good option to have. I still can't fathom how some people on this forum still don't rate him, on his day he's absolutely quality. 

1 minute ago, Scott Harris said:

He was great again tonight. Yes, his decision making in attacking areas is a bit iffy and I think he overplays too often when we need to clear the ball, but I think his form has picked up again since he got back in the team. I still think Kante, Mount, Havertz will be our best midfield going forward, but if one of them drop their form, Kovacic can slot in and take their place no problem. 

He is a good player who is let down by his decision making. Holds onto the ball a little too long sometimes, release it at the right time and we go 'wow'. He does though have a tendency to give away silly free kicks within 30 yards of goal, that needs to be cut out of his game. 

11 hours ago, charierre said:

He is a good player who is let down by his decision making. Holds onto the ball a little too long sometimes, release it at the right time and we go 'wow'. He does though have a tendency to give away silly free kicks within 30 yards of goal, that needs to be cut out of his game. 

That was mostly due to an abysmal first touch he made, he was practically kicking himself for that you could see the frustration. Because he controlled the ball extremely well in a very tough area but then made a first touch like Lukaku and had to make the foul since he gave it to a player in a dangerous area. 

I don't blame him for the foul he made so much, it was mostly the terrible touch he did on the edge of the box. Kovacic has a tendency to overplay it and always plays it out from the back. Most of the time it works, sometimes it doesn't. 

1 hour ago, Slojo said:

That was mostly due to an abysmal first touch he made, he was practically kicking himself for that you could see the frustration. Because he controlled the ball extremely well in a very tough area but then made a first touch like Lukaku and had to make the foul since he gave it to a player in a dangerous area. 

I don't blame him for the foul he made so much, it was mostly the terrible touch he did on the edge of the box. Kovacic has a tendency to overplay it and always plays it out from the back. Most of the time it works, sometimes it doesn't. 

Don’t expect any change when it comes to playing it out from the back. Long tradition in that part of the world. It’s in the genes 🙂

7 minutes ago, Dean said:

Don’t expect any change when it comes to playing it out from the back. Long tradition in that part of the world. It’s in the genes 🙂

Good, playing it out from the back is extremely underrated on this forum. It's part of Lampards philosophy and I'm glad, there's nothing more demoralising for the opposition when you're chasing shadows, it's a very effective way to play football.