5 minutes ago, Sindre said:

You think? I'd say he's become notoriously bad at deserting space to go chase the ball. His best attribute is as a ballwinner where he's still the best in the league probably.

He is obviously playing to the managers orders, otherwise he would be hooked

7 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Jorginho has been among the best passers in the league when it comes to certain stats. Tell me if there is a certain stat where Kante is also among the best just like Kovacic and Jorginho are. I'll wait.

PS. whoscored is not reliable, I had a conversation about Kai Havert's position and we came to the fact that the stats shown there are not really reliable, e.g. for some player it was shown like he made a few saves as if he was a keeper... But Kante not winning any single duel for 2 games in a row is a real stats so yea...

or the stats don't meet your argument this time? 

11 minutes ago, charierre said:

or the stats don't meet your argument this time? 

Ever since I discovered that whoscored isn't reliable I stopped using that website. I had problems with Whoscored regarding the position that at some point Kai Havertz played and then I had a discussion about Declan Rice and his passing percentages and someone pointed out that when you select a player it doesn't show the real stat, on the same website Whoscored but in two different places, two different passing percentages were shown and it even said that an outfield player made a few saves as if he was a keeper.

So no it has nothing to do with Kante not winning a single duel for 180+ minutes in a row, I got that stat somewhere else.

Now if you are looking to disregard the fact that Kante hasn't won a duel in 2 full games in a row, I suggest that you complain here:

Find me a stats that puts Kante somewhere in the top of the league, clearly it has been easy to find that Jorginho has been at the top when it comes to passes into the final third last season and Kovacic is clearly one of the best when it comes to running with the ball...

Kante is supposed to win the balls, yet he can't win them, that was his main and best quality as a player before.

Edited October 25, 20205 yr by Gol15

2 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Ever since I discovered that whoscored isn't reliable I stopped using that website. I had problems with Whoscored regarding the position that at some point Kai Havertz played and then I had a discussion about Declan Rice and his passing percentages and someone pointed out that when you select a player it doesn't show the real stat, on the same website Whoscored but in two different places, two different passing percentages were shown and it even said that an outfield player made a few saves as if he was a keeper.

So no it has nothing to do with Kante not winning a single duel for 180+ minutes in a row, I got that stats somewhere else.

Now if you are looking to disregard the fact that Kante hasn't won a duel in 2 full games in a row, I suggest that you complain here:

Find me a stats that puts Kante someone in the top of the league, clearly it has been easy to find that Jorginho has been at the top when it comes to passes into the final third last season and Kovacic is clearly one of the best when it comes to running with the ball...

Kante is supposed to win the balls, yet he can't win them, that was his main and best quality as a player before.

The problem with Kovacic is when he comes to release the ball, rectify that and add some end product in the final third and he is a definite starter. Jorginho lacks physique and athleticism for this league, that is never going to improve. Kante can at least cover space and get back in position. We have an imbalance and a lack of physical attributes in midfield at present and placing a true DM in front of the defence would allow us more scope in going forward. As for the duels football isn't always about duels but making the opposing teams go into areas that you are comfortable with, note how good Silva was at that yesterday. 

1 minute ago, charierre said:

The problem with Kovacic is when he comes to release the ball, rectify that and add some end product in the final third and he is a definite starter. Jorginho lacks physique and athleticism for this league, that is never going to improve. Kante can at least cover space and get back in position. We have an imbalance and a lack of physical attributes in midfield at present and placing a true DM in front of the defence would allow us more scope in going forward. As for the duels football isn't always about duels but making the opposing teams go into areas that you are comfortable with, note how good Silva was at that yesterday. 

Either Lampard isn't using Kante properly or he has declined. We'll see how we will look once we buy Rice or whoever Lampard is going to buy...

1 hour ago, charierre said:

Really? Kante's best attribute is he defends space well,

I agree Kante can do well defensively but at the same time I feel like he lacks the positional discipline to really protect a back-four throughout the game. Maybe it's just Lampard telling Kante to roam as he pleases, could be the reason why he is so often totally out of position.

Just now, reparto corse said:

I agree Kante can do well defensively but at the same time I feel like he lacks the positional discipline to really protect a back-four throughout the game. Maybe it's just Lampard telling Kante to roam as he pleases, could be the reason why he is so often totally out of position.

He actually is really our only player who has defensive instinct at present, probably his best attribute is his ability to recover position quickly. He isn't the final answer but  neither are Jorginho and Kovacic. Each have weakness in their game, getting them married up with Havertz is going to be Franks biggest job which is why I'd think we would go for a dedicated DM and possibly then transition into a 4#3#3 outfit.

18 hours ago, charierre said:

He actually is really our only player who has defensive instinct at present, probably his best attribute is his ability to recover position quickly. He isn't the final answer but  neither are Jorginho and Kovacic. Each have weakness in their game, getting them married up with Havertz is going to be Franks biggest job which is why I'd think we would go for a dedicated DM and possibly then transition into a 4#3#3 outfit.

When Kante plays in midfield, we don't look any stronger defensively, he doesn't even have the defensive discipline to cover the back 4 and stay deep because that's never been his role. 

At least with Jorginho and Kovacic you've got distribution, if we keep hold of the ball, that's a better defensive measure than anything Kante has to offer lately. 

2 minutes ago, Slojo said:

When Kante plays in midfield, we don't look any stronger defensively, he doesn't even have the defensive discipline to cover the back 4 and stay deep because that's never been his role. 

At least with Jorginho and Kovacic you've got distribution, if we keep hold of the ball, that's a better defensive measure than anything Kante has to offer lately. 

Did we concede on Saturday? Job done.

Trouble with the other pair is neither is great defensively, even offensively they don't offer greatly as opposed to other world class talents. Kante as I said covers space well. We all have a view of what is right and wrong with the team,none of us right none of us wrong. It's an opinion. 

19 minutes ago, charierre said:

Did we concede on Saturday? Job done.

Trouble with the other pair is neither is great defensively, even offensively they don't offer greatly as opposed to other world class talents. Kante as I said covers space well. We all have a view of what is right and wrong with the team,none of us right none of us wrong. It's an opinion. 

So that's your metric then? We lost more games last season with Kante in the side than we did with Kovacic and Jorginho in the middle, and conceded a lot more goals. 

We also didn't concede in the Spurs game until Kante came on, so what basis is this? 

And Kovacic and Jorginho are very good offensively, their ball retention and distribution skills are excellent. 

10 minutes ago, Slojo said:

So that's your metric then? We lost more games last season with Kante in the side than we did with Kovacic and Jorginho in the middle, and conceded a lot more goals. 

We also didn't concede in the Spurs game until Kante came on, so what basis is this? 

And Kovacic and Jorginho are very good offensively, their ball retention and distribution skills are excellent. 

as i said its opinion. You have yours others differ. I ain't getting into a love in on who is better, only at present we have an imbalance within the midfield no matter which pair we play.

22 hours ago, Droopy said:

Nice fancy statistics. Pardon me and my uneducated approach with the assists and goals. 

Does this mean you didn't rate Xavi and Modric much?

2 hours ago, Argo said:

Does this mean you didn't rate Xavi and Modric much?

I get what you mean but this is equivalent to if I said to all of the Jorginho haters that by hating him they hate Pirlo... Not really a realistic comparison.

25 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I get what you mean but this is equivalent to if I said to all of the Jorginho haters that by hating him they hate Pirlo... Not really a realistic comparison.

Neither is comparing Pirlo to the vastly inferior Jorginho. 

BTW I wasn't in favour of us signing Pirlo when we were linked, who I consider may have struggled in a more physical league in his latter years.Class player though.

Edited October 26, 20205 yr by charierre

Modric? Xavi?? Pirlo????

If we're going to compare Jorginho to a genuinely world class player with zero basis whatsoever it may as well be Xabi Alonso, which is who we actually need.

 

31 minutes ago, charierre said:

Neither is comparing Pirlo to the vastly inferior Jorginho. 

That's exactly what I implied already...

7 hours ago, charierre said:

as i said its opinion. You have yours others differ. I ain't getting into a love in on who is better, only at present we have an imbalance within the midfield no matter which pair we play.

Also this isn't really true, last season Kovacic-Jorginho was a good balanced central midfield with Mount in front of them.

This season didn't start so long ago after the previous one ended, many people genuinely don't understand why Kovacic isn't playing but nobody dares to ask that question.

If we are to complain about our midfield we should also take in count the fact that Lampard is giving the players instructions to push higher up and that alone has been pretty costly for us ever since he took over, he's still doing some of the same tactical mistakes that we have had since day 1 and that's all due to his tactics and not on the players.
What has changed is T.Silva that can play under pressure since he has been a world class player and also Mendy that can actually save shots and command his area but many pointed out that Lampard's weakness is the same as from day 1/from his early days at Derby. On top of that it's noticeable that Mount has been playing poorly as a wide player as well, so not all problems are to be solved by replacing players, some of our players do their roles, that's why we managed to finish top 4 last season after all!

2 goals for Kovacic today against Portugal, lets hope he kept some for us.

6 minutes ago, DidierDrogbalala said:

2 goals for Kovacic today against Portugal, lets hope he kept some for us.

His movement was superb for both of them also, that's the type of playing style he has to stick with if we are playing with Kante behind. The guy is extremely talented, if he can allow himself to be more creative and adventerous I think he could comfortably get in the teamsheet week in week out. 

1 hour ago, Slojo said:

His movement was superb for both of them also, that's the type of playing style he has to stick with if we are playing with Kante behind. The guy is extremely talented, if he can allow himself to be more creative and adventerous I think he could comfortably get in the teamsheet week in week out. 

He played further up the field today and was aggressive. Against Sweden he played deeper and was not aggressive at all. He can score goals he did at inter one season. It’s a mentality thing with him. 

 Still 2020 folks

Edited November 17, 20205 yr by Dean

10 hours ago, Kova17 said:

He played further up the field today and was aggressive. Against Sweden he played deeper and was not aggressive at all. He can score goals he did at inter one season. It’s a mentality thing with him. 

Indeed. Croatian media and punditry (recently Blazevic) puts quite a lot of pressure on him (“heir apparent to Boban, Modric not fulfilling his destiny” type thing) so let’s hope this alleviates that and, more importantly, that he now scores more goals for us:). Are you Croatian by the way?

11 hours ago, Dean said:

Indeed. Croatian media and punditry (recently Blazevic) puts quite a lot of pressure on him (“heir apparent to Boban, Modric not fulfilling his destiny” type thing) so let’s hope this alleviates that and, more importantly, that he now scores more goals for us:). Are you Croatian by the way?

Yes I am and a big Kovacic fan. Potential wise I always thought he could be one of the best midfielders in the world when I first saw him play at 17. It’s more mental than anything else with him. He works hard. He’s a dedicated to football not a party  guy at all. Kovacic never had great shooting technique but when he played aggressive going forward in one season at Inter he scored like 8 goals I believe. That was the best game I saw Kovacic play for Croatia. Watched him almost every game at Chelsea last season and he played well but I believe there is a higher level there. He’s not Modric though. He doesn’t have the brain or vision of Modric. Few do though. 

Played really well. Complete midfielder's performance that lacks only a goal and assist. 

Beautiful passes forward and getting stuck in when needed

When he plays in the midfield 3 he gives us a nice balance because he can do everything well.