I’ve had enough of him. He doesn’t even have the ability to play players forward, a lot of times recently he could have played them through and he just kept dribbling sideways until he got fouled or loses ball.

If Bayern offer 30m, take it and run. He’s holding us back.

On 21/01/2023 at 14:41, nonotnowjim said:

Personally I don't want him to go - not yet anyway.

I'm a team that "clicks" I think he can be a real asset. In his time here, he has never really been in a team that regularly gels. Probably being overly optimistic, but really want him to succeed. We should also bring back timo. 😂

We are probably the only 2 left, but I am with you on this one. 

I really want to see him in our upgraded offence. 

He has been in a very ungrateful situation playing up front in a total sh*t team.

Especially when it came to creating chances. 

Could have had 2/2 with a bit of luck in the last 2 games. 

Had already some nice link-ups with Joao those few minutes they played together. 

I really want to see him in an attack with Mudryk, Joao (maybe Noni?) and a new mid. 

I'm sure we will get to see a different player. As he is a very talented player. 

He's had a run of games in a position he is best at and he looks much better. Last two goals we have scored both were his. Liverpool goal was sadly disallowed. 

I also liked what I saw him connecting with Felix. 

And if you look like players like Rashford you can see there is a player there. The age and manager does a lot. And support. 

Edited January 23, 20233 yr by evissy

52 minutes ago, evissy said:

He's had a run of games in a position he is best at and he looks much better. Last two goals we have scored both were his. Liverpool goal was sadly disallowed. 

I also liked what I saw him connecting with Felix. 

And if you look like players like Rashford you can see there is a player there. The age and manager does a lot. And support. 

I'm sure he's been playing the same position for about 2 years now

Strikter hadn't been his main position when we signed him, but people forget that his best patch of form in Germany that made us sign him, right after restart after Covid, came playing as the CF of his team, so people need to stop acting like we're playing him in a position that he's not used to and not able to perform in.

Also I think profile wise his best positions are CF or second striker. He's good at linking up with other players and at taking up positions from which to score. I don't think his vision, passing and dribbling and turning in tight spaces are good enough for a number 10 and he hasn't got the dribbling, delivery and acceleration (he's quick, but not from a stand still) to be a winger.

1 hour ago, RIP Mourinho said:

I'm sure he's been playing the same position for about 2 years now

Not in 4-3-3.

Anyway we need to trust in a system, players in a system, and make repetitions within. Havertz has shown he is a top player for us and for Germany. He is 23 years old as well. 

Either we trust him or we sell him for a loss, buy a new guy who has to settle in as well.

I feel Kai is our man and will be very important in the future.

Rumours of Bayern being interested are supposedly false anyway. 

I think Kai is a complex footballer, as far as most people are concerned he's a flop. Yet the only reason he's viewed that way is because of the expectation from such a high price tag alongside his goal and assist metric outputs. Strangely he's still scored the 2 goals and assisted the one goal which have directly led to the last 3 trophies we've won. 

So while on the outside he may look like he's not Chelsea quality, in the moments where it matters the most he has done the business.

Sadly 23 these days is expected to be the age a player is tearing up the league. However, individual factors play a huge role on player development. Attacking players are always held to such high standards these days, fans want the next Messi, CR7 or X player the list goes on. They reach their own level when they're ready and the harder the league + the longer they stay means more time to adapt and therefore a longer prime theoretically.

Havertz isn't like most attacking players where he has a set defined role or position. He's a jack of all trades which often means he's played wherever due to his flexibility allowing others to play in their more desired or effective roles.

The number 10 position rarely exists in modern football systems now. Some teams play with it, but the 433 is probably the most popular system in world football once again and very rarely does it feature one designated number 10 playing central behind the striker. 

Usually coaches like Pep, Klopp and more recently Arteta have their number 10 playing as one of the CM positions on the right or left of the most central player (usually a DM) and the attack mid now plays more of a box to box role alongside chief playmaker. This means the midfield 3 usually has a holding/defensive mid, a pure box to box and a playmaker.

Ironically this was where Frank saw Kai's best position and played him there until it didn't work and at first it was working when Ziyech was creating, Werner was scoring and the whole team was clicking.

To see the best of Kai Havertz, he needs a free role not necessarily as a false 9 or pure striker. He needs fast wingers to feed the ball through to down the wing and then he makes his way into the box to either finish moves or support the rest of the attack. He is for all intensive purposes a number 10, but he doesn't have the players (until perhaps now Nkunku, Mudyrk, Maduake and Sterling) who will run in behind.

It's part of the reason why he had such a good understanding with Werner who's pace allowed Kai more space to operate in. Pulisic does run in behind but he also likes to have it played to feet, Ziyech wants the ball to feet in order to play those defense splitting passes, and lacks the required pace to run in behind as does Mount at times. 

I'll say the same thing to Havertz's doubters as I'll say to Mount's.....it's a team game. These new signings don't have to be replacements and maybe theyre not intended to be. Maybe they're here to compliment them and play alongside them. Which raises Chelsea's level as a club and all the individual player's levels too.

If you want to see what a #10 is, look at Odegaard vs United yesterday. Hell, look at Odegaard this entire season. Havertz doesn't have the creativity or dribbling technique to be as effective as him. Particularly in tight areas. 

Potter supposedly rates him so we are stuck with him unless we have better options to displace him. 

2 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Rumours of Bayern being interested are supposedly false anyway. 

I think Kai is a complex footballer, as far as most people are concerned he's a flop. Yet the only reason he's viewed that way is because of the expectation from such a high price tag alongside his goal and assist metric outputs. Strangely he's still scored the 2 goals and assisted the one goal which have directly led to the last 3 trophies we've won. 

So while on the outside he may look like he's not Chelsea quality, in the moments where it matters the most he has done the business.

Sadly 23 these days is expected to be the age a player is tearing up the league. However, individual factors play a huge role on player development. Attacking players are always held to such high standards these days, fans want the next Messi, CR7 or X player the list goes on. They reach their own level when they're ready and the harder the league + the longer they stay means more time to adapt and therefore a longer prime theoretically.

Havertz isn't like most attacking players where he has a set defined role or position. He's a jack of all trades which often means he's played wherever due to his flexibility allowing others to play in their more desired or effective roles.

The number 10 position rarely exists in modern football systems now. Some teams play with it, but the 433 is probably the most popular system in world football once again and very rarely does it feature one designated number 10 playing central behind the striker. 

Usually coaches like Pep, Klopp and more recently Arteta have their number 10 playing as one of the CM positions on the right or left of the most central player (usually a DM) and the attack mid now plays more of a box to box role alongside chief playmaker. This means the midfield 3 usually has a holding/defensive mid, a pure box to box and a playmaker.

Ironically this was where Frank saw Kai's best position and played him there until it didn't work and at first it was working when Ziyech was creating, Werner was scoring and the whole team was clicking.

To see the best of Kai Havertz, he needs a free role not necessarily as a false 9 or pure striker. He needs fast wingers to feed the ball through to down the wing and then he makes his way into the box to either finish moves or support the rest of the attack. He is for all intensive purposes a number 10, but he doesn't have the players (until perhaps now Nkunku, Mudyrk, Maduake and Sterling) who will run in behind.

It's part of the reason why he had such a good understanding with Werner who's pace allowed Kai more space to operate in. Pulisic does run in behind but he also likes to have it played to feet, Ziyech wants the ball to feet in order to play those defense splitting passes, and lacks the required pace to run in behind as does Mount at times. 

I'll say the same thing to Havertz's doubters as I'll say to Mount's.....it's a team game. These new signings don't have to be replacements and maybe theyre not intended to be. Maybe they're here to compliment them and play alongside them. Which raises Chelsea's level as a club and all the individual player's levels too.

Not really, kai is an ss or a st in a 2 or a false 9. Pick one, they are all the same. 

He is not a typical 10 who play almost exclusively between the line. 

Bar Lukaku, Havertz is the pinnacle example of everything wrong with our recruitment strategy in the latter years of Roman's reign. 

12 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Bar Lukaku, Havertz is the pinnacle example of everything wrong with our recruitment strategy in the latter years of Roman's reign. 

Hmm nope both actually make sense 

8 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Hmm nope both actually make sense 

In what sense?

2 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

In what sense?

In no sense. 

I don't get it either. We signed a striker who is suited to counter attacking football when we were a team that played possession football 90% of the time. Then we signed a player who was a CAM when we've not had that position consistently open since Mourinho. 

We either spend stupid money on poor to average players or sign players who aren't suited to the system that we play. It's really hard to think of a world class signing that we've made since Conte's 2nd season besides Thiago Silva.

Here's hoping some of the new signings that we've made change that. 

1 minute ago, Victor90 said:

In no sense. 

I don't get it either. We signed a striker who is suited to counter attacking football when we were a team that played possession football 90% of the time. Then we signed a player who was a CAM when we've not had that position consistently open since Mourinho. 

We either spend stupid money on poor to average players or sign players who aren't suited to the system that we play. It's really hard to think of a world class signing that we've made since Conte's 2nd season besides Thiago Silva.

Here's hoping some of the new signings that we've made change that. 

Was a weird reply. I am expecting him to respond that we needed a goal scorer or focal point up top, which like you stated made zero sense unless this striker matches the profile that is tailored to our system. Lukaku was far from it. 

Havertz was also genuinely a luxury signing. We got him because we were sold on the generational talent nonsense without ever considering where he would play in Lampard's 433 set up. 

12 minutes ago, Victor90 said:

In no sense. 

I don't get it either. We signed a striker who is suited to counter attacking football when we were a team that played possession football 90% of the time. Then we signed a player who was a CAM when we've not had that position consistently open since Mourinho. 

We either spend stupid money on poor to average players or sign players who aren't suited to the system that we play. It's really hard to think of a world class signing that we've made since Conte's 2nd season besides Thiago Silva.

Here's hoping some of the new signings that we've made change that. 

What goes under the radar is it made no sense in 2011 either. We were (before Jose's return) building a core of future technically and tactically excellent players and he is the total opposite of that.

He would have stood out for the wrong reasons even more (than he did last year) in a team containing Hazard, KDB, Oscar, Salah, Mata, Luiz, young Azpi etc.

I genuinely think we fell for childhood Chelsea fan PR and let our heart rule our head, twice.

Edited January 24, 20233 yr by Argo

On 23/01/2023 at 14:39, Sconnie Blue said:

If you want to see what a #10 is, look at Odegaard vs United yesterday. Hell, look at Odegaard this entire season. Havertz doesn't have the creativity or dribbling technique to be as effective as him. Particularly in tight areas. 

Potter supposedly rates him so we are stuck with him unless we have better options to displace him. 

Odegaard is a year older and hasn’t been anywhere near this good any other season. Maybe, just maybe Havertz could break through in a similar way if everyone has some patience?

12 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

In what sense?

We need a goal getter for that team. It is that simple. 

Havertz was signed because we were rebuilding and the plan was for Kai to play behind tammy or timo which make sense. 

21 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Was a weird reply. I am expecting him to respond that we needed a goal scorer or focal point up top, which like you stated made zero sense unless this striker matches the profile that is tailored to our system. Lukaku was far from it. 

Havertz was also genuinely a luxury signing. We got him because we were sold on the generational talent nonsense without ever considering where he would play in Lampard's 433 set up. 

 

11 hours ago, Bob stark said:

We need a goal getter for that team. It is that simple. 

Havertz was signed because we were rebuilding and the plan was for Kai to play behind tammy or timo which make sense. 

As expected. Like clockwork. 

As for Havertz, not once did we play with a CAM under Lampard his first stint and with Havertz coming in it would've forced Mount out of position or on the bench completely when Mount was integral at the time. 

Again. Simply not needed and everything wrong with Roman's tenure towards the latter stages. 

13 hours ago, Bob stark said:

We need a goal getter for that team. It is that simple. 

Havertz was signed because we were rebuilding and the plan was for Kai to play behind tammy or timo which make sense. 

We did but not one that compromised pretty much all the good points of the UCL winning system.

 

Be happy with that much for him

On 24/01/2023 at 16:41, Argo said:

What goes under the radar is it made no sense in 2011 either. We were (before Jose's return) building a core of future technically and tactically excellent players and he is the total opposite of that.

He would have stood out for the wrong reasons even more (than he did last year) in a team containing Hazard, KDB, Oscar, Salah, Mata, Luiz, young Azpi etc.

I genuinely think we fell for childhood Chelsea fan PR and let our heart rule our head, twice.

I think it was a simplified case of what we need is more goals, so sign a striker, one of the best strikers. So we went for big Rom and got burned badly. Most of us could see it also, he's not got a good attitude, he's severly overrated, didn't fit the system, it was a very lazy thought process.

I'm actually really surprised City went in for Haaland, as good as the kid is, I think they are better off without him and the recent form they are in is showing that. We severely downgraded by getting Lukaku, it was a mess. 

11 hours ago, Frankie8Lampard said:

 

No one is paying £50m for him. His options are limited to the German market, & at £50m only Bayern can afford that. Drop the demand to £35m + add ons, & you will get your Dortmund & Leipzig interested.

1 hour ago, ducavis said:

No one is paying £50m for him. His options are limited to the German market, & at £50m only Bayern can afford that. Drop the demand to £35m + add ons, & you will get your Dortmund & Leipzig interested.

35m for a talented, experienced, 23 year old German international footballer would be madness. Whatever people think of his contributions up to now, he is not a player that we NEED to remove from the squad.

1 hour ago, venom2011 said:

35m for a talented, experienced, 23 year old German international footballer would be madness. Whatever people think of his contributions up to now, he is not a player that we NEED to remove from the squad.

He has got 2yrs left on a £170k/w contract which has largely been underwhelming. Options are either to renew the contract, & I reckon he will be demanding £200k/w or sell. Now ask yourself is he a £200k/w player? For all the talent and experience, he has never scored 10 PL goals in his 3 seasons here. Even this season where he is starting regularly, he has 5 PL goals in 17 starts. Nketiah by comparison has 4 PL goals in 5 starts.

Long term if the club is serious about challenging at the top he won’t be a starter. There are options in the market who will do a better job at a fraction of his wages; Toney for example.