The criticism is legit, but I wonder if Werner could be this year’s Christensen of last season, or Kovacic of two seasons ago. Widely condemned but silenced the critics In the following season. I see potential as I did with the other two and I’m going to go out on a limb and say (again) he’ll be banging in goals and it wouldn’t surprise me if we were in contention for POTY next season. 

Nobody can fault his work rate, he runs the channels well and always on the last defenders shoulder. Not sure he will ever be as prolific as in Germany ( where he also had his fair share of misses despite scoring freely) but did show up well alongside Havertz. I do expect both to kick on next season once they have fully adapted to a more physical league. 

3 minutes ago, Dean said:

The criticism is legit, but I wonder if Werner could be this year’s Christensen of last season, or Kovacic of two seasons ago. Widely condemned but silenced the critics In the following season. I see potential as I did with the other two and I’m going to go out on a limb and say (again) he’ll be banging in goals and it wouldn’t surprise me if we were in contention for POTY next season. 

He really should silence all including myself next season with 20 goals in the league, I wouldn't mind in fact I thought he would be scoring 20 goals easy this season already but he missed so much it hurts.

As seen today, Ziyech should oh 'Shearered that chance with laces through the ball, then Timo would of had two assists, Btw his assist to Havertz is simply a thing of beauty

30 minutes ago, ashwin said:

 

My inference that you only watch highlights is far more reasonable than these inferences of yours 😉

Werner has been showing fantastic movement, pressing incessantly and linking up play extremely well, which is why Tuchel plays him (almost) every time. I hope you watched today's match at least.

The problem with this is that we spent 50 million pounds on a goal scorer not another frontman or wide player who only contributes a goal here and there. I don't want our number 1 striker to be assisting 20 goals a season if he isn't scoring bucket loads as well. We could have drafted in Shane Long or Ashley Barnes for free if you want a striker who presses and annoys defenders and also can't score goals.

And to add to this, Fulham and Wolves have the lowest club top scorer in the division with their respective top scorers at 5 goals each. That makes us second worse with our top league goal scorers all even at 6. That's a paltry and abysmal return after 34 matches if you ask me. Werner should bear the brunt of the criticism for our lack in goals as he plays week in and week out no matter what. I think it's clear that you and I want two very different things from our strikers. And I'd also say that we're not going to win the league again until we get a real goal scorer.

38 minutes ago, charierre said:

Nobody can fault his work rate, he runs the channels well and always on the last defenders shoulder. Not sure he will ever be as prolific as in Germany ( where he also had his fair share of misses despite scoring freely) but did show up well alongside Havertz. I do expect both to kick on next season once they have fully adapted to a more physical league. 

Very true, but until he gets his head right I'm done expecting anything more than that from him.

 

BTW Morata has 9 goals this season.

23 minutes ago, Butterhampton FC said:

The problem with this is that we spent 50 million pounds on a goal scorer not another frontman or wide player who only contributes a goal here and there. I don't want our number 1 striker to be assisting 20 goals a season if he isn't scoring bucket loads as well. We could have drafted in Shane Long or Ashley Barnes for free if you want a striker who presses and annoys defenders and also can't score goals.

I don't disagree that we need a goal scorer and so far Werner hasn't shown himself to be that person. But as is often the case with such players, you need time to judge what they are capable of. Salah was a terrible finisher with us and suddenly became this goal machine with Liverpool.

Overall, clubs invest not just in immediate success but also in the future. Werner and Havertz are likely to come good and have shown glimpses of real class already.

But letting go of this player with fantastic potential and bringing in Shane Long would be insane.

PS: I'm not sure why the 50m bugs you so much, it's not your money and it's not as if any of us know anything about the finances of the club.

3 minutes ago, ashwin said:

I don't disagree that we need a goal scorer and so far Werner hasn't shown himself to be that person. But as is often the case with such players, you need time to judge what they are capable of. Salah was a terrible finisher with us and suddenly became this goal machine with Liverpool.

Overall, clubs invest not just in immediate success but also in the future. Werner and Havertz are likely to come good and have shown glimpses of real class already.

But letting go of this player with fantastic potential and bringing in Shane Long would be insane.

PS: I'm not sure why the 50m bugs you so much, it's not your money and it's not as if any of us know anything about the finances of the club.

Because 50m is a lot of money to spend on a striker who can't score.

And you can't compare Werner to Salah. The club didn't give Salah a chance at all. He played in 15 matches and we loaned him out to Fiorentina and Roma where he excelled. 

4 hours ago, Butterhampton FC said:

The problem is we spent 50 million on what we thought was a poacher/goal scorer. Not another pacy winger who will contribute 5 goals and 10 assists over the season

Werner already has 11 goals and 13 assists this season. The first player to contribute to over 20 goals in a debut season since Diego Costa (I think - at least that was the stat mentioned on the commentary today - not checked it though!)

So...Werner, to date has contributed to 24 goals.

For comparison, Diego Costa in his first season contributed to 23 goals (20 goals / assists). FYI, Costa then contributed to 18 in his second season (12 goals / 6 assists), and 27 in season 3 (20 goals/7 assists).

Drogba in his first season contributed to 10 goals and 5 assists. 12 Goals and 11 assists in season 2, 20 goals and 4 assists in season 3, 8 goals and 5 assists in season 4.

To make very clear, I do not think that Werner has been good enough, and clearly he needs to start scoring more and stop missing easy chances....

....BUT, his output and impact is not a bad foundation to build on, and he is not having as bad a season as others make out. He is a threat, and his first season numbers are up there with players who are seen to be very successful Chelsea strikers.

Edited May 1, 20215 yr by nonotnowjim

57 minutes ago, Butterhampton FC said:

The problem with this is that we spent 50 million pounds on a goal scorer not another frontman or wide player who only contributes a goal here and there. I don't want our number 1 striker to be assisting 20 goals a season if he isn't scoring bucket loads as well. We could have drafted in Shane Long or Ashley Barnes for free if you want a striker who presses and annoys defenders and also can't score goals.

And would either of them have almost single handedly turned defense into attack the way he did for our crucial goal against Atleti and or our winner against City? Would they have a) had the pace to wipe out opposition players out of the move and b) delivered a perfect weight of pass to Ziyech?

Saying "we spent £50m on a player to score goals" is just a beyond simplistic way of looking at it, under Tuchel we have been miles better in terms of both performances and results with him on the pitch, the good of the team matters first and foremost.

If we wind up with one or both of the trophies on offer this season he would have contributed with some genuine match winning contributions, contributions that will trump stat padding at home to Newcastle.

11 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Werner already has 11 goals and 13 assists this season. The first player to contribute to over 20 goals in a debut season since Diego Costa (I think - at least that was the stat mentioned on the commentary today - not checked it though!)

So...Werner, to date has contributed to 24 goals.

For comparison, Diego Costa in his first season contributed to 23 goals (20 goals / assists). FYI, Costa then contributed to 18 in his second season (12 goals / 6 assists), and 27 in season 3 (20 goals/7 assists).

So with that comparison you're trying to say that D.Costa wasn't as good for us as Werner is currently or what are you trying to suggest?

Werner's goals:

3 CL goals in 10 games, over 680 minutes - against Rennes and Krasnodar.

1 goal in the FA cup, over 235 minutes - against Morecabre.

1 goal in the Carabao Cup - against Spurs.

6 goals in the PL league, 2335 minutes - against Southampton x2, Burney, Sheffield Utd, Newcastle and West Ham.

Werner's assists:

2 in CL - against Krasnodar and Atletico Madrid.

1 in FA cup - against Man City.

10 in the PL - against Brigton, Southampton, Newcastle, Leeds, Spurs, Sheffield Utd x2, West Brom, Fulham.

Overall Werner has played around 3345 minutes in total this season so far, most of his contributions came from playing against the lower end teams and he has scored 1 goal in more than 2 months. 

D.Costa back in 2014/15 scored 20 goals in the PL in 26 appearances, overall he had 20 goals and 5 assists in around 410 less minutes played than Werner has played right now, while also having at least a month lost due to injury, I don't think it's even fair to compare the two.

44 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Werner already has 11 goals and 13 assists this season. The first player to contribute to over 20 goals in a debut season since Diego Costa (I think - at least that was the stat mentioned on the commentary today - not checked it though!)

So...Werner, to date has contributed to 24 goals.

For comparison, Diego Costa in his first season contributed to 23 goals (20 goals / assists). FYI, Costa then contributed to 18 in his second season (12 goals / 6 assists), and 27 in season 3 (20 goals/7 assists).

Drogba in his first season contributed to 10 goals and 5 assists. 12 Goals and 11 assists in season 2, 20 goals and 4 assists in season 3, 8 goals and 5 assists in season 4.

To make very clear, I do not think that Werner has been good enough, and clearly he needs to start scoring more and stop missing easy chances....

....BUT, his output and impact is not a bad foundation to build on, and he is not having as bad a season as others make out. He is a threat, and his first season numbers are up there with players who are seen to be very successful Chelsea strikers.

Another measure of his impact, Timo is the first player to reach double figures in both goals and assists (11 and 10 respectively) - in his first Chelsea season since Eden Hazard in 2012-13.

Just now, Gol15 said:

So with that comparison you're trying to say that D.Costa wasn't as good for us as Werner is currently or what are you trying to suggest?

Werner's goals:

3 CL goals in 10 games, over 680 minutes - against Rennes and Krasnodar.

1 goal in the FA cup, over 235 minutes - against Morecabre.

1 goal in the Carabao Cup - against Spurs.

6 goals in the PL league, 2335 minutes - against Southampton x2, Burney, Sheffield Utd, Newcastle and West Ham.

Werner's assists:

2 in CL - against Krasnodar and Atletico Madrid.

1 in FA cup - against Man City.

10 in the PL - against Brigton, Southampton, Newcastle, Leeds, Spurs, Sheffield Utd x2, West Brom, Fulham.

Overall Werner has played around 3345 minutes in total this season so far, most of his contributions came from playing against the lower end teams and he has scored 1 goal in more than 2 months. 

D.Costa back in 2014/15 scored 20 goals in the PL in 26 appearances, overall he had 20 goals and 5 assists in around 410 less minutes played than Werner has played right now, while also having at least a month lost due to injury, I don't think it's even fair to compare the two.

No - I am not saying that Costa wasn't as good for us as Werner. If you read my post, you will see that I said nothing of the sort.

I CLEARLY said, and I quote:

" To make very clear, I do not think that Werner has been good enough, and clearly he needs to start scoring more and stop missing easy chances....

....BUT, his output and impact is not a bad foundation to build on, and he is not having as bad a season as others make out. He is a threat, and his first season numbers are up there with players who are seen to be very successful Chelsea strikers."

You see, when you actually take the time to read, you will see that I said nothing which played down Costa's contribution or suggested he was worse than Timo. In fact, I clearly said that Werner has not been good enough. However, Werners output and impact show that he has not been as useless as some posters on here would have us believe, and in fact, his first season output compares pretty well when compared against the first season outputs of some very successful Chelsea strikers.

Why not read posts properly before jumping to silly conclusions and insinuating that I suggested Timo was better for us than Diego was. Simply put, please stop making things up.

18 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

No - I am not saying that Costa wasn't as good for us as Werner. If you read my post, you will see that I said nothing of the sort.

I CLEARLY said, and I quote:

" To make very clear, I do not think that Werner has been good enough, and clearly he needs to start scoring more and stop missing easy chances....

....BUT, his output and impact is not a bad foundation to build on, and he is not having as bad a season as others make out. He is a threat, and his first season numbers are up there with players who are seen to be very successful Chelsea strikers."

You see, when you actually take the time to read, you will see that I said nothing which played down Costa's contribution or suggested he was worse than Timo. In fact, I clearly said that Werner has not been good enough. However, Werners output and impact show that he has not been as useless as some posters on here would have us believe, and in fact, his first season output compares pretty well when compared against the first season outputs of some very successful Chelsea strikers.

Why not read posts properly before jumping to silly conclusions and insinuating that I suggested Timo was better for us than Diego was. Simply put, please stop making things up.

So you're not saying that Werner is having a better first season than D.Costa then but at the same time you're saying that he has had better contribution than him in 2/3 seasons, this is why I asked what are you trying to suggest by comparing the two of them. It was a question so everything I said was true and I didn't make anything up.

6 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

So you're not saying that Werner is having a better first season than D.Costa then but at the same time you're saying that he has had better contribution than him in 2/3 seasons, this is why I asked what are you trying to suggest by comparing the two of them. It was a question so everything I said was true and I didn't make anything up.

Oh Gol 🤦‍♂️ give it a rest 🙂 . 1) It’s Saturday night after a good day in a bank holiday weekend. 2) I dare say you may be projecting a bit. Just because you believe the stats you provide necessarily have some earth-shattering significance, with a hard conclusion always to be drawn, it doesn’t mean others feel the same way when they offer stats. You are drawing conclusions from @nonotnowjim’s stats and pushing back too hard on the basis of YOUR conclusions  (“so Werner is better than Costa, is he?”), not his. I think his intention in offering those stats is, as he says, simply to add some weight to the case for Werner not being as bad as many seem to think.
 

Let’s all enjoy the rest of the long weekend!

Not sure what sparked the Tammy v Timo war, especially after they just played together at the same time, on the same team, in different positions, and helped the team get 3 points. So wtf is the problem people ?

Micro analysing an individual players performance is fine, but don't take your eyes of the bigger picture, when he plays we usually win, as already stated below, and it was great to see Tammy back today, we're going to need him in the next 7 games....

 

32 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

So you're not saying that Werner is having a better first season than D.Costa then but at the same time you're saying that he has had better contribution than him in 2/3 seasons, this is why I asked what are you trying to suggest by comparing the two of them. It was a question so everything I said was true and I didn't make anything up.

No - I am not saying that Werner is having a "better" first season than Costa. I would have thought that when I said "I do not think that Werner has been good enough, and clearly he needs to start scoring more and stop missing easy chances.", it would have been very clear that he is not performing "better" than Costa did.

I have also not said that Timo has "has had better contribution than him in 2/3 seasons" as you suggest. Read again, go on, one more time....and you will see that I said, "his output and impact is not a bad foundation to build on, and he is not having as bad a season as others make out. He is a threat, and his first season numbers are up there with players who are seen to be very successful Chelsea strikers".

So. To make this very very very clear, in simple terms that everyone from my 6 year old son, to my 90 yr old grandma can understand.

What I AM NOT saying

1) I am not saying that Timo Werner is playing better than Diego Costa did in his first season

2) I am not saying that Timo Werner is playing better than Diego Costa did in his 2nd or 3rd Season.

3) I am not saying that Timo Werner is playing better than Didier Drogba did in any of his seasons with us.

4) I am not saying that Timo Werner is playing better than Eden Hazard.

5) I am not saying that Timo Werner is the answer to our attacking prayers.

6) I am not saying that Timo Werner has been good enough.

What I AM saying

7) I am saying that Timo Werners goals and assists output is not as bad as people make out.

8 )I am saying that Timo Werners goals and assists output in this, his debut season in the UK, is not bad when compared to debut seasons from other successful Chelsea strikers, including Costa and Drogba.

9 ) I am saying that Timo Werner is the first Chelsea player to reach double figures of both goals and assists in a single season since Eden Hazard in 2012/13

10) I am saying that Timo Werners goal and assist output in his first season to date, is a fantastic foundation to build on in his 2nd season

11) I am saying that Timo Werner contributes a lot more than some posters on here give him credit for.

12) Despite point 10, I am saying that Timo Werner has not been good enough, that he needs to do better, needs to score more and needs to stop missing easy chances.

13) I am saying that despite his flaws, Timo Werner is winning us significantly more points and contributing more in big moments than Tammy Abraham.

14) I am saying that I do not agree with those who say that Abraham should play over Werner

 

I trust that this makes it super easy to understand what I am, and what I am not saying. I hope this has been helpful and wont need further clarification.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 20215 yr by nonotnowjim

6 minutes ago, Dean said:

Oh Gol 🤦‍♂️ give it a rest 🙂 . 1) It’s Saturday night after a good day in a bank holiday weekend. 2) I dare say you may be projecting a bit. Just because you believe the stats you provide necessarily have some earth-shattering significance, with a hard conclusion always to be drawn, it doesn’t mean others feel the same way when they offer stats. You are drawing conclusions from @nonotnowjim’s stats and pushing back too hard on the basis of YOUR conclusions  (“so Werner is better than Costa, is he?”), not his. I think his intention in offering those stats is, as he says, simply to add some weight to the case for Werner not being as bad as many seem to think.
 

Let’s all enjoy the rest of the long weekend!

Cheers Dean - you are spot on with my intention. Not everything needs to be so binary (better/worst, right/wrong, black/white)

I'm going to attempt to do a breakdown on Timo Werner because I think there is a misconception of exactly what kind of player he is and where exactly he needs to plays in order to maximise his goal output. 

Timo Werner feels like a player that has been around for a long while now, I think he first came to my attention during the 17/18 season and was being hyped to play well in the following World Cup.

Although his World Cup campaign was somewhat underwhelming he did carry on playing a vital role in Leipzig's success in recent seasons in terms of his attacking output.

Aside from the fact he played as a striker for Germany I didn't know too much about him so when we were being linked to him by the media (English) it appeared as if he was being brought in to be our out and out number 9. 

When we signed him I read a few articles on him which explained that whilst he had mainly operated as a striker at the start of his career he had now developed into a hybrid forward.

Both Julian and Ralph from what I understand helped develop his mentality. Which was a shift from being simply just another selfish number 9, which you see more often than not into a more well rounded team player.

This change caused him to get a lot more assists and rounded his game to being much more than simple goal scorer.

A lot of German fans had said when we signed him to expect a few misses per game because that's just the kind of player he is but he will still get you goals or goal scoring opportunities.

My key point is that he is a hybrid forward not a traditional striker by definition. He was brought in to be an attacking force and even though he is struggling in his debut season he is still producing.

In fact he has quite an interesting record since he is the first player to score and get assists in the double digits during their debut campaign since a fella named Eden Hazard.

 

https://metro.co.uk/2021/05/01/timo-werner-equals-eden-hazard-record-in-chelseas-win-over-fulham-14506122/?ito=newsnow-feed

 

5 hours ago, Butterhampton FC said:

The problem is we spent 50 million on what we thought was a poacher/goal scorer. Not another pacy winger who will contribute 5 goals and 10 assists over the season

Is it though ?

To be truthful, I hadn’t watched Werner prior to his arrival, so I had no first hand knowledge of who or what sort of player he was - now that he’s here, I can’t pretend that he doesn’t frustrate enormously, his goal conversion v decent chances given is awful, truly awful , I mean he’s even hooked a certain Chelsea goal off the opponent’s goal line ffs, there are so many aspects of his game that, for a pro footballer, are poor, but he contributes enough to this team to be worth his place and definitely gets to be picked ahead of Tammy or Oli.

Take today for instance, he could have got a couple , maybe 3 himself, he has a definite assist for Havertz’s second (his pass was sublime btw - most un-Werner like tbh) and Ziyech ought to have given Timo his second assist of the match (albeit that that chance came first) and the Fulham defence were scared sh*tless by his pace and potential.

I think If you had two pacy wingers who contributed 10-15 goals and 20+ assists , in addition to a proper goal scoring centre forwards contribution , I wouldn’t be so unhappy, especially with further goals from the midfield and defensive unit, then a 60-70+ goals a season would be achievable? 

So, I don’t mind that Roman forked out £50million on Werner, he’s a big part of the reason why we may yet get 3rd in the PL,  are in the FA cup final and are a very achievable home result away from the CL final.

He scares the opposition rigid, they don’t know whether their punched, bored or counter sunk !!

I hope we have a similar problem next year too ! 

 

Edited May 1, 20215 yr by Paddy

1 minute ago, Dean said:

Oh Gol 🤦‍♂️ give it a rest 🙂 . 1) It’s Saturday night after a good day in a bank holiday weekend. 2) I dare say you may be projecting a bit. Just because you believe the stats you provide necessarily have some earth-shattering significance, with a hard conclusion always to be drawn, it doesn’t mean others feel the same way when they offer stats. You are drawing conclusions from @nonotnowjim’s stats and pushing back too hard on the basis of YOUR conclusions  (“so Werner is better than Costa, is he?”), not his. I think his intention in offering those stats is, as he says, simply to add some weight to the case for Werner not being as bad as many seem to think.
 

Let’s all enjoy the rest of the long weekend!

What is the point of that comparison, that's all I asked because if we look closer one of them has 6 goals in the PL the other 20, let's not ignore the big elephant in the room shall we? Werner is a striker, he scored over 30 goals last season and now we're counting his assists and overall contribution and putting a lot of weight in assists, for what reason?

If Tuchel hadn't fixed our defense Werner's end product would have been a serious issue for us. 

2 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

What is the point of that comparison, that's all I asked because if we look closer one of them has 6 goals in the PL the other 20, let's not ignore the big elephant in the room shall we? Werner is a striker, he scored over 30 goals last season and now we're counting his assists and overall contribution and putting a lot of weight in assists, for what reason?

If Tuchel hadn't fixed our defense Werner's end product would have been a serious issue for us. 

The point of the comparison is to demonstrate exactly what I said. That his goal/assist output is not bad when compared to debut seasons from other successful Chelsea strikers, including Costa and Drogba, and it provides a great foundation for Timo to build on next season.

7 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

The point of the comparison is to demonstrate exactly what I said. That his goal/assist output is not bad when compared to debut seasons from other successful Chelsea strikers, including Costa and Drogba, and it provides a great foundation for Timo to build on next season.

I have seen here months back the comparisons to Drogba that also started his career here slowly that's one thing but you openly compared Werner to D.Costa in terms of end product as if he's been having as good of a season as D.Costa had, because of his overall contribution of goals+assists and I simply don't agree with that at all.

20 goals + 3 assists is a job of the striker, not 6 goals + 10 assists with one of the highest amounts of big chances missed in the whole league and also in whole Europe.

Sounds like a self-defeating argument there by comparing someone that hasn't been good enough to someone else that clearly had a great first season for us years back because you can't really say that a player hasn't been good enough but that at the same time he's up there with the players who have had a good first season, his contributions are simply not as good as D. Costa's contributions were, that much is clear as soon as you look at the stats more closer and also if you had watched both playing their first seasons so I rest my case.

Tbf though I think if Timo had Cesc and Eden to supply him with chances he would score a lot more goals even with his lack of confidence.