Outside of goals and assists, Timo at the moment offer a much more robust body of work compared to Tammy. 

Tammy just can't bring the same level of energy, speed, hard work, and press like Timo does currently. TT is justified in continually picking Timo in the starting 11.

However, I do feel bad for Tammy. TT should throw him a few bones here and there instead of being frozen out completely.

 

 

7 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Absolutely there lots of aspect to be critical with Tammy's game especially his link up/hold up play even his touch. 

 

Didn't you say he was a "complete striker" a couple of weeks ago?

9 hours ago, Imran_CFC said:

I understand some of the other points you are making but your emphasis on the 1 point contribution from Tammy is hugely subjective, my guess is that the 1 point you are referring to is the West Brom game. 

In addition to that he scored 2 against West Ham in a 3-0 win, he scored 1 against Newcastle in a 2-0 win and also scored the equalising goal against Sheffield. Football is not as simple as had he not scored we would've still won because the final scoreline was comfortable, anyone who watched that West Ham game would know that we were getting dominated until Tammy scored the 2nd goal which burst West Hams bubble and even against Newcastle we were starting to drop deeper and deeper and could've conceded late as Liverpool found out recently. 

I understand you are not a fan of Tammy and you have the right to your opinion but to downplay his contributions by stating his goals and assists have only Contributed to a solitary point is just misleading. 

Its such a moronic argument to claim of all his goals only 1 contributed towards points. Every single goal scored by anyone in a win contributes towards those points, no matter when or how the goal is scored. This is the problem with fans who base everything on stats, they simply cant see beyond the black and white statistics they see someone and parrot them to show how amazingly knowledgeable they are.

3 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

Didn't you say he was a "complete striker" a couple of weeks ago?

Didn't I say he has a chance to be complete because he does? He can do it all. It doesn't mean he is great at everything. 

 

38 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Didn't I say he has a chance to be complete because he does? He can do it all. It doesn't mean he is great at everything. 

 

He can do it all, except the physical side of the game, heading, staying upright and hold up play. 
 

He also struggles with scoring or assisting meaningful goals.
 

Edited April 30, 20215 yr by nonotnowjim

4 hours ago, dkw said:

Its such a moronic argument to claim of all his goals only 1 contributed towards points. Every single goal scored by anyone in a win contributes towards those points, no matter when or how the goal is scored. This is the problem with fans who base everything on stats, they simply cant see beyond the black and white statistics they see someone and parrot them to show how amazingly knowledgeable they are.

Yet, those shouting loudest about Tammy deserving a place in the team over Werner, bang on about the stat that he is the highest scorer, despite offering significantly less in other departments. Cant have you cake and eat it. If you want to use goal stats, then it is only right to speak about the context of those stats.

18 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Yet, those shouting loudest about Tammy deserving a place in the team over Werner, bang on about the stat that he is the highest scorer, despite offering significantly less in other departments. Cant have you cake and eat it. If you want to use goal stats, then it is only right to speak about the context of those stats.

Don’t mean to be picky Jim, but you can ........what you can’t do is eat your cake and still have it 

1 hour ago, nonotnowjim said:

Yet, those shouting loudest about Tammy deserving a place in the team over Werner, bang on about the stat that he is the highest scorer, despite offering significantly less in other departments. Cant have you cake and eat it. If you want to use goal stats, then it is only right to speak about the context of those stats.

Go on then, show us the context, show us how only 1 of his goals was worth anything.

6 hours ago, dkw said:

Every single goal scored by anyone in a win contributes towards those points, no matter when or how the goal is scored.

I agree with you that Jim is going a little over the top here with his arguments.

But I also don't fully agree with this. A late consolation goal when you are 3-0 down or a late goal when the game is won already isn't as valuable as the goals that actually win you a game or "kills" it as such.

5 minutes ago, Sindre said:

I agree with you that Jim is going a little over the top here with his arguments.

But I also don't fully agree with this. A late consolation goal when you are 3-0 down or a late goal when the game is won already isn't as valuable as the goals that actually win you a game or "kills" it as such.

So he needs to prove that then, but any goal that is involved in points can play a part in that win/draw no matter which one it was, depending entirely on the context of that goal. Just sayinh only one had any value is nonsense.

I can understand Werner starting regularly in the Champions League games despite not scoring. He fits Tuchel's tactics well in these games where we are looking to counter quickly.

However I don't understand Tuchel's reluctance to use Tammy or Giroud on domestic games. Especially those against teams in the lower half of the table. I really think either of those options would have given us more goals in some of those games. 

I am not sure how Timo Werner got this far in his professional career. I don't know how anyone can defend him anymore. I think we have been Ali Dia'd with him. 

20 minutes ago, Butterhampton FC said:

I am not sure how Timo Werner got this far in his professional career. I don't know how anyone can defend him anymore. I think we have been Ali Dia'd with him. 

It’s interesting isn’t it , how did he get to command a transfer value of ? £50m ? Seeing him play for us, it beggars belief, but we do have a history of spending top dollar on world class finishers and getting mostly w**k in return? 

Like most on here, I fear we’ve bought a pup, but my stance isn’t one of defending him and more about being pragmatic , as my old dad would say, ‘you can only piss with the cock that you’ve got’ - crude way of saying , I’d sooner Haaland but out all of the strikers available to us, he’s the one that I’d go with rather than the alternatives.

 

17 minutes ago, Paddy said:

It’s interesting isn’t it , how did he get to command a transfer value of ? £50m ? Seeing him play for us, it beggars belief, but we do have a history of spending top dollar on world class finishers and getting mostly w**k in return? 

Like most on here, I fear we’ve bought a pup, but my stance isn’t one of defending him and more about being pragmatic , as my old dad would say, ‘you can only piss with the cock that you’ve got’ - crude way of saying , I’d sooner Haaland but out all of the strikers available to us, he’s the one that I’d go with rather than the alternatives.

 

Maybe about the alternatives but it's gone on far too long to not switch things up and put in Tammy and Giroud. Tammy has played 2 minutes since February and still has scored the same amount of goals as Timo in that span. You just know that every game he is due for a glaring miss, poor touches, no link up or hold up play. I don't see what pundits see on television. They praise his work rate but that is the bare minimum of what I expect from a professional footballer being paid millions. I'd pay millions to be in his position!

1 hour ago, dkw said:

So he needs to prove that then, but any goal that is involved in points can play a part in that win/draw no matter which one it was, depending entirely on the context of that goal. Just sayinh only one had any value is nonsense.

This has been a bit of a theme over the past couple of weeks, but once again, you have inserted something that I have not said. To clarify, I have never said that "only one (Tammy goal) had any value". So I don't know why you are insinuating that I did.

I have made a statement of fact. That Tammys goals and assists this season have been responsible for winning us a solitary EPL point. That was the late equaliser against West Brom. I stand by that statement.  

I have gone into further details on the Tammy Abraham thread, where I acknowledge that his 2 goals against West Ham  made the game more comfortable for us,  and I also acknowledged that he scored the equilser against Sheffield Utd, which helped turn the game in our favour. Without Tammys goals in those games, we may or may not have won. But it doesn't change the fact that if you take Tammys  goals off the score card of those games, the final outcome doesn't change. 

Compare this impact to that of Werner,   who's goals / assists have directly won us many points. This includes off the top of my head, Southampton (2x goals that secured us a point), Sheffield Utd away (2x assists that secured us the win), Tottenham away (1x assist that secured us the win), West Ham away (1x goal that secured us the win). These are all game changing and resulting changing goals or assists.

You can argue all you like, and if you genuinely think that Tammys consolation goal in the loss to arsenal is as important than timos winning goal against West Ham (for example) then that is your prerogative - each to their own - but if you are looking objectively, then it is clear that Werner has been involved in significantly more game changing goals that have directly impacted the final score than Tammys meagre contribution.
 

Does Timo need to score more - Yes, of course

but has Timo contributed to significantly more game/result changing goals than Abraham - another resolute yes. 
 

 

 

Edited April 30, 20215 yr by nonotnowjim

On 29/04/2021 at 20:05, Spiller86 said:

I've wanted to see a combo with Giroud all season. I think they could work well together.

They could work but any formation that works with 2 strikers leaves a lot of our good players out. A 352 would see us lose Havertz/Ziyech/Pulisic/Odoi, a 442 leaves out Mount/Havertz/Ziyech

It's a tough choice for any coach

6 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Didn't I say he has a chance to be complete because he does? He can do it all. It doesn't mean he is great at everything. 

 

Tammy is a classic fox in the box. Tammy and Michy are different versions of the same striker

1 hour ago, nonotnowjim said:

 

Does Timo need to score more - Yes, of course

but has Timo contributed to significantly more game/result changing goals than Abraham - another resolute yes. 
 

 

Werner needs to stop missing clear cut chances and ruining good attacks, he has played over 3200 minutes this season and he barely scored more than 10 goals, most of which were against lower end teams.

Despite being involved in many goals he has been an underwhelming player for us this season and if the only way to hide that is to compare him to Tammy that hasn't been given the same treatment as Werner at all then you know you got a whole set of problems;

The only "bigger" goal that Timo scored in months, against what you can call a decent opposition was just recently against West Ham. That's 1 goal against a team that is fighting for a top 4 spot this season which in itself is a great season for West Ham already. In comparison Tammy scored against that same West Ham twice earlier in the season, to that you would tell me that those goals didn't matter at all because we already had the lead prior to him scoring and that according to you it's equivalent as if Tammy never even played that game... The reality is actually that despite the fact that Timo has been the first choice for both Lampard and Tuchel, he hasn't been good enough and somehow still isn't outscoring Tammy that has fallen out of favor.

We can only hope that Werner improves next season but if he keep playing like this in the end of the day he won't be as great of a player for us as we have hoped for, yes he did better than Abraham... With about 1700 minutes more spent on the pitch running like a headless chicken most of the time.

Hypothetically speaking Tammy can't afford to have 1/4 of the amount of bad games where he would waste 2-3 good chances per game, Werner can and could. If you compare Werner to any striker of our rivals he's clearly worse than them so if he doesn't improve it's not really relevant that he has done better than Tammy, he absolutely should have done better anyway all things considered, after all as soon as he came to the club it was pretty clear that Tammy would lose his status as the first choice striker.

 

15 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Werner needs to stop missing clear cut chances and ruining good attacks, he has played over 3200 minutes this season and he barely scored more than 10 goals, most of which were against lower end teams.

Despite being involved in many goals he has been an underwhelming player for us this season and if the only way to hide that is to compare him to Tammy that hasn't been given the same treatment as Werner at all then you know you got a whole set of problems;

The only "bigger" goal that Timo scored in months, against what you can call a decent opposition was just recently against West Ham. That's 1 goal against a team that is fighting for a top 4 spot this season which in itself is a great season for West Ham already. In comparison Tammy scored against that same West Ham twice earlier in the season, to that you would tell me that those goals didn't matter at all because we already had the lead prior to him scoring and that according to you it's equivalent as if Tammy never even played that game... The reality is actually that despite the fact that Timo has been the first choice for both Lampard and Tuchel, he hasn't been good enough and somehow still isn't outscoring Tammy that has fallen out of favor.

We can only hope that Werner improves next season but if he keep playing like this in the end of the day he won't be as great of a player for us as we have hoped for, yes he did better than Abraham... With about 1700 minutes more spent on the pitch running like a headless chicken most of the time.

Hypothetically speaking Tammy can't afford to have 1/4 of the amount of bad games where he would waste 2-3 good chances per game, Werner can and could. If you compare Werner to any striker of our rivals he's clearly worse than them so if he doesn't improve it's not really relevant that he has done better than Tammy, he absolutely should have done better anyway all things considered, after all as soon as he came to the club it was pretty clear that Tammy would lose his status as the first choice striker.

 

Check the win percentage of when he's played against Tammy, hard stats win every time, he contributes massively our performances...

2 hours ago, Butterhampton FC said:

Maybe about the alternatives but it's gone on far too long to not switch things up and put in Tammy and Giroud. Tammy has played 2 minutes since February and still has scored the same amount of goals as Timo in that span. You just know that every game he is due for a glaring miss, poor touches, no link up or hold up play. I don't see what pundits see on television. They praise his work rate but that is the bare minimum of what I expect from a professional footballer being paid millions. I'd pay millions to be in his position!

It’s astonishing how football divides opinion , it is subjective and we all see different things .

I can’t argue with his misses, poor first, second and most touches, but I feel that had Tammy played Timo’s minutes, I doubt he would have been any more successful, we’ll never know of course, but aside from the lack of goals, Werner’s speed and getting into positions to score , scares the opposition and of course, he may turn provider instead - who knows, he may even bang the odd one in !!!

4 hours ago, Ballack & Blu said:

Check the win percentage of when he's played against Tammy, hard stats win every time, he contributes massively our performances...

I don't know what you mean, since Tuchel took over we didn't really lose a game when Tammy was on the pitch... 

The issue is Tammy and Especially Giroud really deserve much more than they are getting under Tuchel. Are either good enough, well Giroud is but is on his way out, and Tammy has a more than decent goal return.

On the other hand Timo adds so much more to our game than Tammy cant and doesnt. Werner against Liverpool run them ragged, and against Man City in the fa cup, with those two assists, for me Tammy would be anonymous if he played either game. Lets not be blinded by the fact that Tammy's aerial ability is amongst the worst i have ever seen. He is shocking in that regard. For through balls in and around 8 yards,he oftens mistimes his runs, or falls over the ball. He has very little strength or hold up play, and how many matches has he been completely anonymous over the last 2 years, quite a fair few.

However, what i cant understand is, whilst Timo is integral to a lot of our play, the guy is missing sitters after sitters too. I therefore cant fathom why Abraham or Giroud arent given a chance atleast domestically in some games. If we were a free scoring team, then fair enough, but we arent and we are drawing a lot of games, so i do also believe they need some sort of chance. 

Do i believe either of them are the answer, maybe, maybe not. But do they deserve more of a chance 100%, especially as they have proven they can both score, and Werner cant.

Edited May 1, 20215 yr by Oli

14 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

This has been a bit of a theme over the past couple of weeks, but once again, you have inserted something that I have not said. To clarify, I have never said that "only one (Tammy goal) had any value". So I don't know why you are insinuating that I did.

I have made a statement of fact. That Tammys goals and assists this season have been responsible for winning us a solitary EPL point. That was the late equaliser against West Brom. I stand by that statement.  

I have gone into further details on the Tammy Abraham thread, where I acknowledge that his 2 goals against West Ham  made the game more comfortable for us,  and I also acknowledged that he scored the equilser against Sheffield Utd, which helped turn the game in our favour. Without Tammys goals in those games, we may or may not have won. But it doesn't change the fact that if you take Tammys  goals off the score card of those games, the final outcome doesn't change. 

Compare this impact to that of Werner,   who's goals / assists have directly won us many points. This includes off the top of my head, Southampton (2x goals that secured us a point), Sheffield Utd away (2x assists that secured us the win), Tottenham away (1x assist that secured us the win), West Ham away (1x goal that secured us the win). These are all game changing and resulting changing goals or assists.

You can argue all you like, and if you genuinely think that Tammys consolation goal in the loss to arsenal is as important than timos winning goal against West Ham (for example) then that is your prerogative - each to their own - but if you are looking objectively, then it is clear that Werner has been involved in significantly more game changing goals that have directly impacted the final score than Tammys meagre contribution.
 

Does Timo need to score more - Yes, of course

but has Timo contributed to significantly more game/result changing goals than Abraham - another resolute yes. 
 

 

 

I agree with this but Timo is really starting to tick me off with hiw awful he is. We are one more draw/loss away from me washing my hands off him because it may be his squandered chances that will cost us.

30 minutes ago, KonaKai Blue said:

I agree with this but Timo is really starting to tick me off with hiw awful he is. We are one more draw/loss away from me washing my hands off him because it may be his squandered chances that will cost us.

I am fine with him missing - assuming he is also scoring. Unfortunately he isn't scoring enough to compensate for the misses! 
 

I don't recall us ever having a striker that  misses so many big chances. Very frustrating player, albeit one that we rely on. A weird situation to be in!

 

Timo may be hair pullingly frustrating in front of goal but has , generally, a good footballing work rate and ability to build up to goals scored by others..